The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: paulsou on June 08, 2009, 01:40:40 pm
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I am new to pig keeping but could you tell me if i can feed potato peelings to pigs in addition to their food?
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You are legally not allowed to feed pigs, or chickens, any food that has been passed through a kitchen!!
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I have never heard so much crap, what reason do our leaders give for this piece of nonsense? :dunce:
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You are legally not allowed to feed pigs, or chickens, any food that has been passed through a kitchen!!
is this true?
does anyone have a link to a .gov site that states this
thanks kn
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found it
thanks
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/id-move/pigs/pdf/new_owner_guide.pdf
kn
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I am new to pig keeping but could you tell me if i can feed potato peelings to pigs in addition to their food?
if you grow your own or buy from non meat supplier (greengrocer) peel and cook the potatoes outside then you can!!
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As i said i am new to pigs & regarding food from the kitchen i thought it was a case of nothing from catering establishments but what about uncooked veg & peelings from my own kitchen at home???? Is this a no no as well??? someone mentioned it was ok to give peelings but they would need to be boiled i just dont know!! defra dont seem to make it clear!
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Right,I've had enough of this b****x.
If you are raising your pigs for your own consumption,and I'm guessing because you "new to all this",then veg peelings from your own kitchen is fine,just make sure they haven't come into contact with any meat (raw or cooked). I boil up the veg peelings and add in to their normal feed. As it's just me here generally,there's no point me trying to work how much less normal food they get,it's a treat.
If you are raising your pigs to sell the meat on a commercial basis,then yes,adhere to Defra guidlines.
Keeping pigs requires a certain level of common sense,just like keeping every other animal/pet.If you've got children that are still living and breathing,then I'm sure you'll be fine!
This is just another reason why I moved to France,none of the bulls*** and regulations in the ever declining Uk.......Ree
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and of course you could peel your spuds in a bucket in the garden and cook the peelings on a workshop stove or camping gas ring ;)
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Thanks everybody who has responded to my question. the old saying "you dont ask you dont know".
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MrRee - I'm afraid it makes no difference who is going to eat them or indeed if they are to be eaten at all! The rules still apply ::)
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Don't you just love it when a single question provokes so many different opinions.
As far as I'm aware, in my modest opinion, anything that has been in any kitchen cannot be fed to pigs. If you grow your own and occasionally pick veg and give it straight to the pigs then it's ok. If you manage to get fruit and veg from a wholesaler, then it's ok as long as it's kept away from a kitchen.
I would also think that this stands regardless of who will be eating it. I think some get confused with the killing process on this matter, as you can kill and butcher your own at home if it's solely for your consumption.
I do love a good thread!!!
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I'm with MrRee!! ;D
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ITS ALL SO SILLY!!
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the rules only count when you get caught... for examples see MP's Expenses
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Nobody wants to see a return to the days of swill from canteens being fed to pigs. However a little common sense should apply. Personally I compost all veg scrapings, for the simple reason that I find it much easier to get spoiled fruit and veg and run it through a garden shredder (solely used for feeding the pigs) before mixing it with feed. My porkers wouldn't eat a carrot if you put it in front of them.....but shred it and they devour all! Bit like my kids really....any food they won't eat i.e chick peas, baby sweetcorn etc., I just blend up with tomatoe sauce and serve it as pasta bolognaise, or use it as a pizza topping. It has to be said that the kids (wonderful bunch) aren't as rambunctious as the piggies ;D
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I'm no goody goody, but I find some folks attitude to the rules quite concerning!
They are there to protect us, alledgedly, from another foot and mouth. Just because you only have 2 pigs and are planning to eat them yourself, then as a pig keeper, you should adhere to the rules. If F&M ever returned then I would like to think I did all I could NOT to spread it or start it.
Some people have ploughed all they haveinto their farms and as someone who not only hobby farms but also commercially farms 500 acres, then I would be distraught if I reappeared. My losses would be far greater than 2 pigs and 3 sheep
We all detest the daft rules, including standstills, but we all have to standby them.
If you're not prepared to do it, then seriously reconsider keeping animals!!!!!
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I would have more respect for the rules if they actually had a sound scientific reasoning behind them instead of lets just introduce something to say they have solved a problem. By the way working in the agricultural industry I know more farmers who break the rules than I do smallholders who have genuine feelings for their livestock and will detect any illness or diseases far quicker than most modern stockmen
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It's true, some flaunt the rules!! But I personally wouldn't risk it!!!
Too much at stake
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I am with ukag0972 on this. It is so easy to moan about regulations. The reason for banning use of anything that has been in a kitchen is obvious and sensible. The fact is that with the best will in the world you cannot be sure that food that has been through a kitchen has not come into contact with meat products - whether by being on a work surface that has had meat on it or otherwise. It is easy for those of us who do not rely entirely upon raising livestock to support ourselves to criticise but are peoples memories of the devastation caused by foot and mouth so short?
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After a lengthy discussion with the animal health department they have stated that nothing at all can be given to pigs or any other livestock, chickens etc... that has come via a kitchen (domestic or commercial) due to possible contamination from knives, meat dishes & breadboards etc...
We can only give veg direct from garden/plot if given direct to the animals. Veg & fruit can be brought from suppliers if they go direct to animals not via kitchens.
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It's a shame that people are bullied into not being able to use their own common sense. I understand that some people have fed livestock with contaminated feed which had animal product in it. This has now been recognised as bad practise. The no contact with kitchen waste implies that we should not feed animals to our animals, or parts thereof. However, when I have been visited by DEFRA, the advice the guy gave me was to keep your veg preparation away from meat preparation( good practise anyway) and have a seperate boiling pot for your pig feed, ie a ruddy great pan that you just use for boiling up spuds etc for your pigs. he was quite happy to turn a blind eye to it being boiled in the kitchen, as long as you understood the meat/veg separation.
I have also heard on the grapevine that they are going to start allowing animal protiens back into commercial animal feeds, under strict guidelines. We as a nation are very anal about adhereing to red tape. big corperations seem to have ways of challenging this. our continental neighbours seem to use common sense to which eec regs they want to stick to.Use the guidelines and also your common sense.
I am lucky enough to have two sinks in the kitchen on seperate worktops. veg only on one. all the rest on the other. And a huge slab of wood that lives in the garage and comes out for butchery.
a little bit of potato peel unboiled , but not having been in contact with meat, now and again should not cause the downfall of europes agriculture. good healthy food for good healthy animals.
feeding animals on the rendered down remains of cheap, imported fast food meats, from global companies, however, is what should be stipulated as the major threat.
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The way I see it, the rules are strict and for good reason, I'm very careful how and what I feed to my pigs and would like to think my neighbour does the same, if he decides to feed his pigs with veg chopped with the same knife he just chopped his chicken with and caused a f&m outbreak, then my animals are at risk too. Wasn't the last outbreak caused by someone feeding a pig a salami sandwich?!
Yes it is all about common sense but sadly not everyone is blessed with that!!
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Was it not a kebab?
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thats the point we dont know were all the meat comes from. have a look at the tesco freezer section. So in general in the vast majority of cases there is little or no risk but just imagine if you had to watch your animals being shot and burnt in front of you then all your neighbours for miles around. so feel free to give them scraps but remember if your caught then expect the results to be expensive it only took one person to decimate the animal industry a few years back don't be the next.
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It's all about keeping the risk down. No meat equals no risk. It's a shame that a lot of good, cheap food goes to landfill, rather than to pigs, but better than the disaster we had. Feeding pigs on good fodder, gm free etc is not cheap, and makes for more expensive pork. It is much better in my opinion, but I am biased. It is also annoying that we are in competition with meat that has been injected with large amounts of water to bulk it up for next to no cost. Once you get folk used to the good stuff they are reluctant to go back to the supermarket, but there is a recession on, and cost is king. Don't let the regulations put you off, just get on with it, stick to the guidelines set down by DEFRA, apply a bit of common sense, and enjoy keeping great animals that give fantastic meat.
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the last foot and mouth outbreak came from vaccine leaking from a government laboratory. The previous foot and mouth outbreak allegedly came from a farmer who didn't double boil pig swill which came from the local school. In my mind I was more worried about why the school kitchens weren't cooking food for the kids sufficiently enough to kill bacteria.
As an afterthought I should add that I don't have pigs nor feed any of my livestock anything that goes through the kitchen. Mainly because there are very little scraps left and what is left goes on the compost heap
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For what its worth...disobeying the rules is what gets you into trouble and the consequences could lead to serious problems for you and others...we may not like them but as smallholders we do undertake to obey them...in anycase, if there's any risk of feeding my pigs or any other animals anything that could cause them harm then I don't do it...full stop!
Personally, I remember with great fondness the smell of warm pig swill and the relish with which my fathers pigs devoured it - he made it himself, which was allowed back in the fifties - but the big commercial feed producers introduced all manner of additives to their products with an eye to profit and as a result we ended up poisoning our livestock and contaminating our meat...if the only way to avoid this type of thing happening again is to obey the rules (questionable though many of them may be) then we have no choice but to abide them.
Think...a pig in the wild will eat practically anything that grows, but only in its raw state...he doesn't cook it...if you want to feed them spuds, buy/grow a few extra, chop them into quarters and watch them enjoy the treat...likewise with any veg!
Farmer
:farmer:
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Slightly off-topic I know,but just for all you law abiding purists out there,here are a couple of laws still in effect....
All English males over the age 14 are to carry out 2 or so hours of longbow practice a week supervised by the local clergy.
In York,excluding Sundays, it is perfectly legal to shoot a Scotsman with a bow and arrow.
Any person found breaking a boiled egg at the sharp end will be sentenced to 24 hours in the village stocks (enacted by Edward VI).
It is illegal for a lady to eat chocolates on a public conveyance.
As it's been said so many times before on this thread,laws are there to be adhered to! .........Ree
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With all due respect MrRee, you made it clear you think the defra rules are b******s! but is the last post trying to be funny or are you taking the wee? ::)
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Look,the OP asked a perfectly good question about feeding potato peelings to his pigs. Instead of someone saying "yes fine,as long as they haven't come into contact with any meat products" or "if you're a commercial business then no,Defra states that you can't". Instead,the poor guy get's told about Defra rules,with no helpful links to the actual rules for him to go look at.
I think that in the most part,rules made by Defra are as much about good husbandry as they are about covering their own backsides in this ever litigious society. And yes,my last post was taking the wee. It was a poke at the hypocrites that choose to conform to some laws they deem necessary and try to enforce them,but will blatantly ignore the laws they don't deem necessary.
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Sorry MrRee but a direct link to the relevant DEFRA info was posted very early on in the thread...did you miss it?
Farmer
:farmer:
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ah, I'm going to york on friday. where did i put my longbow? damn, I'm part scot. I'll shoot myself in the foot. :dunce:
a bit like the regs, you can read what you like into peoples posts, and then choose to do selective soap box beating.
feed them the peel, just don't mix in a bag of doner meat.( not a rule, just sensible)
p.s. if you think the defra regs on feeding pigs is hard to sort out on their website, try sorting out selling eggs to a third party.
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I pick up my fruit and veg at a local supernarket at 8 am every morning, One morning I was late, kids being kids. Lo and behold, on arrival, I found another small scale pig farmer loading every bit of waste into his van....meat included. Now that just made me furious. Now it's feckers like him who need a good 'talking to'. I know that this guy fattens about 20 pigs every year for profit, clearly he feeds them on any 'ol sh*t he can lay his hands on.......but at what cost to the consumer. I love people who are passionate about pigs....I loathe people who are passionate about money.
Morgan
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I'm with you sausagesandcash, its people like him that cause the problems in the first place and then we are all made to suffer...tip off your local Animal Health Officer...before something bad happens and the press advise the public not to buy pork from small pig breeders!
I think we have all suffered enough from the results of other peoples greed for money just lately!
Farmer
:farmer:
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Note to self: when trying to be helpful in replying to posts always include detailed facts, figures and direct links to relevant information ::)
I think we did tell him its fine as long as they dont come into contact meat and should be boiled, perhaps using slightly different layout of words!! Get a grip (rant over) :pig:
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don't forget there is pressure on defra et al to ban small holders because we pose a risk to the big producers. after all its us who feed diseased animals to herbivores. lets not give them an excuse.
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so am i right in saying that i shouldnt be giving my pigs the leftovers from my full irish fryups in the morning as a treat unless i boil it first.
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Regardless of the rules, if you are feeding potatoes in any form they should be boiled first.
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Just curious - can I ask why they need to be boiled :dunce: and please I am a libran - I don't want to cause an argument ;)
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Potatoes are from the Solanaceae family (deadly nightshade) - toxic when raw. I don't think one or two would do any harm, but better safe than sorry.
I do feed my pigs potatoes (miss shapes that are a pain to peel) in the winter, cooked in a large pot outside on workshop stove. I also grow them turnips. ;D
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potatoes can be fed raw to pigs, sheep and cattle, but pigs have difficulty digesting potato starch in moderate to large quantities. Too much starch equals stomach upsets.
Cooking overcomes this and the potatoes then become a good energy source for pigs.
It means that pigs rooting up a few left-over potatoes in a field will be fine, but they should not be fed quantities of raw potatoes as part of their morning and evening rations.
Cattle and sheep being ruminants, on the other hand, can more effectively digest raw potato starch.
But even for sheep and cattle, too large an amount of potatoes can result in starch bypassing the rumen and reaching the lower intestinal tract where it results in stomach upsets and scours.
It must also be remembered that potatoes are a high-energy, high-water, low-fibre, low protein feed.
Feed that’s too high in water content lowers animal feed intake and reduces daily weight gain, while additional roughage may be needed to counter the low fibre content.
The high water content means 4.5kg of potatoes is the broad equivalent of one kilogram of barley.
We supplement our pig rations with cooked potatoes, but never more than 20% of the daily ration. (The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation gives 6kg of cooked potatoes per day as the upper limit for adult pigs.)
As far as poisoning is concerned, it’s only green potatoes plus any sprouts, stems and haulms that are the problem.
If none of these are in the ration, then there is no danger of alkaloid poisoning. (Having said that, if pigs do root up and eat one or two green potatoes in a field they will be okay – it’s when they have them in large numbers in one go or eat a small amount regularly over a long period that poisoning will result.)
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that was brilliant, thanks. I now have the science to back up the traditional advice,
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so am i right in saying that i shouldnt be giving my pigs the leftovers from my full irish fryups in the morning as a treat unless i boil it first.
its illegal to feed them any leftovers boiled or not!
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If you've got children that are still living and breathing,then I'm sure you'll be fine!
MR REE!!!!!/me give everyone a slap just because she can lol
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i was only joking dixie
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Fluffywelshsheep arrested for assault.....Relic arrested for a salt n' pepper ;D
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my bacon is saltie enough thanks very much lol
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http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/by-prods/pdf/swill-leaflet.pdf
My guess is that most of those advocating 'bending' the rules weren't involved in livestock keeping in GB in 2001. Anyone so doing is threatening everybody else with livestock and should be reported to the authorities without hesitation.
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you would not be very popular if you go reporting everyone. But if anyone was still feeding swill then that would need action. Did anyone see what the pig farmer in las vegas was feeding his pigs. Do we allow the USA to export pork to us if they do it would need looking at.
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Am I right in thinking that the last but one outbreak of f&m was caused by monkey meat illegally imported in a suitcase from South Africa? I assumed that sniffer dogs trained to sniff out drugs might have found some interest in meat
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no I'm sure it would turn out to be the high quality meat that we import from all over. its sad that our food supply is that risky that a pig can't eat it safely.
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No veggie waste from the house!!?
What a load of codswallop (not you) rather Defra,
Thankfully we grow our own, and anything our pigs / geese get comes straight from the field.
Think we should have a thread listing silly nonsense rules & regulations?
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think of scrapie/bse that we beastie can linger on surfaces and equipment so buy some cheap meat contaminate the surfaces chop some veg and give them the scraps. guess what your safe practice is now not so safe.
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Even if you didn't feed the scraps you would still be spreading the contamination every time you entered their pens and feed them, handled them or even just walked through their fields.... You did use your hands to put your wellies on didn't you?. Unless of course you did the full bio- security reccommendations and scrubbed up and changed to protective overalls and hair cap... Of course you did!!
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And by the time you get that lot on, you have missed pigs' breakfast and its almost time for their dinner!!!!
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So do you consider feeding your own homegrown veg, 'bending the rules'. Because I was led to understand by DEFRA that it is perfectly acceptable.
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Note to self....never eat at shetland pauls....food preparation a bit iffy! ;D Maybe it's because the long suffering wife used to be a chef, but we use different coloured boards for meat veg and bread and sterilise all after use.....new that OCD would come in helpful at some stage!! However, as I said we compost ours as we get so much spoiled fruit and veg from the market that the veg scrapings would just involve a longer walk to the pig feeding area, as opposed to the compostor.
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after eating some of the stuff ive fed the kids they agree. odd how my oldest daughter prefers to cook tea when mum is not there. so what do the french and therest of europe teach on the piggy feeding.
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New to pigs (not got them yet!!) Thus not read any regs etc.!!!
Are we all to be treated as imbeciles (must spell check!!) just 'cos a few flout the rules (and will continue to do so whether the rules are in place or not!!).
I thought you fed your scraps to pigs!!! I thought they ate almost anything??!?!??!??
I stand corrected. They probably do eat anything if you let them!!!!
I do think though, as has already been mentioned that good basic food hygene should be good enough for my pigs!!! My children are all ok (although I don't plan on eating them, the credit crunch isn't that bad yet :o)
Obviously more reading is needed!!!! Didn't think it would be this complicated!!!!
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When you get your numbers etc from Defra and Animal Health you will get lots and lots of information regarding all aspects of pigs and keeping them. So plenty to read when that arrives.
I'm quite new to pig keeping too, but have got loads on useful information on here.
Pigs are fantastic....You will love them!
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Janette1970, its not complicated, mostly common sense, but you mustn't feed anything thats possible contaminated with meat, and as far as defra is concerned thats Anything thats been in your kitchen! I get spoilt fruit and veg form the grocers for my pigs but never feed them scraps from our kitchen, I know some folk do thats up to them, but I dont ;) read all the gumpf they send you or you can download from the dfra website 'information for new pig keepers' it will give you guidance regarding feeding, tagging , movements etc.
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The french have a more selective attitude. Pick and mix the rules. That applies to just about everything.
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What an entertaining thread!
Reading through this riotous conversation after a week of R & R and thus feeling completely chilled out - It reminds me of the constant inner conflict that I experience being a local government officer with responsibility for public well-being and the public pound etc at work and a middle aged anarchist when I get home.
No wonder I need live with nature. The whole arguement seems to centre around the the same type of principles used in the vaccinate don't vaccinate children debate.
I got myself into a bit of a knot over that one until I spoke to me good friend who is a GP
She said that from a population perspective vaccination is the only answer and as a GP she can only support it.
As a mother knowing the risks to her child with regards to vaccination she has to make a personal decision. In part this decision is based on her knowledge of the percentage of the local population vaccinate and therefor what the personal risk is for her family if she did or didn't. I believe that she did vaccinate - but she left me with the feeling that my decision was mine and had to be based on my assessment of the risks, personally and for society.
I didn't get my children vaccinated but now they are teenagers, fully grown and able to cope with the vaccine, healthy and likely to travel and increase their risks - I am taking them for their jags.
It was a good conversation and a good question.
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The problem with your position on vaccinating children, Marigold, is that if everyone made the choice that you did we would be back to epidemics of Measles and Mumps. Vaccination only works if everyone does it. We are now in a situation where there has been a dramatic increase in the incidence of Measles and Mumps (following a period when they had been all but eradicated from this country) leading to unnecessary and entirely avoidable deaths. This not only creates a risk for those who have not been vaccinated as the vaccines for some of these diseases do not last forever. Whilst you can frame this question as one of personal choice and individual freedom the reality is that to not vaccinate is an incredibly selfish choice which impacts on us all.
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thats harsh and off topic
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Agree
You could place a new subject in Coffee Lounge Rorsa - I am sure lots of us would like to chat about vaccines
Julie
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And I thought this thread was about potato peelings ;D
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Sorry folks didn't mean to start another debate. I will feed my pigs potato peelings cooked in their own pot when I am sure that they have not been in contact with any meat product. I may set up the camping stove to do this separately. We cook on calor gas anyway and I don't like cooking the chicken mash in the kitchen cos it is not very appetising. So.............
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dont go over board. if you want to boil a few peelings for them do it. but just make sure the animal health don't see you.
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thats harsh and off topic
To be fair, he/she was only replying to the previous post. There's no need to pick on the person replying to a post about it being off topic.
Beth
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having had to make the same choice six times i dobt for a minute that they are being selfish in not treating there children. i may have the oposite view to it than them but they are trying there best for there kids. but this is about potato peeling as a food for pigs. so it is off topic on both posts.