The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Odin on November 18, 2012, 07:41:39 pm
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Has this subject been covered on this web site ? The other thread on Sheep that were butchered in a field seems to have deviated on to Halal. (Which I do not believe are the perpetrators of that heanious crime? ).
So have started a new thread. There must be many views.
:-J
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Personally I think it's hideous and should not be allowed in this country, nor should we export live to countries where stock will die a halal death. I believe that the majority of the country are eating it unknowingly, the supermarkets don't publicise it do they? Our country too PC, we have to tolerate these barbaric beliefs and behaviour. Halal slaughter, and outdoor cremations of dead humans, all round us, makes me sick.
Rant over..
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I shall keep quite on this subject . If i pass comment i will be banned . ZZZZiiiiiip !
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lots of bad stuff happens because of religion. mostly to humans. ;)
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outdoor cremations of dead humans, all round us, makes me sick.
What? Where?
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Many many people in this country are eating meat that was slaughtered the halal way without realising it. Many abatoirs that supply supermarket meat use halal slaughter practices as some of their meat is actually sold as halal but all of it is slaughtered that way.
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My first introduction to Halal was in 1991 whilst holidaying in Tunisia. There was one main road in Tunisia running north to south eventually to Libiya. It was not unusual to see a beast, like a cow, hung up by its hind legs from a tree. Along the journey, 'north to south', the said beasts hanging from trees would be at various stages of dissmemberment, probably exactly the same as what goes on in any slaughter house ? Except it was, and probably still is, done at the side of the road. Never saw anybody stunning the said beast. It probably needed knocking out, like its life hammered out of it first before the rope went around its' legs and it was hoisted up.
So when the word 'Halal' is mentioned, this is the instant though anchored into my mind.
During my day job I look after a fleet of lorries. The lorry park is next door to another compound which slaughters and transports chicken. Owned and run by asians so will be I suppose halal ? Nowt wrong there, no issues, except this ;-
We are told that halal is a religious practice . So is there some religious bloke reading extracts from a quoran on every throat that is slit ? Must be a busy chap.
Support your local butcher. I do, use a couple of these chaps. Many around here were forced to close because their buildings were sub-standard, did not have the correct brass knobs on the doors. It would have meant buying EEC approved brass knobs which would have meant a bank loan and the business would not stand it. I suppose our farm bottled milk went the same way, but I still buy it from the milk man that gets it from the farm. Not milk with galactic motorway miles.
:knit:
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Halal is not the only religion for which animals are slaughtered without stunning.
I have expressed my views on slaughter without stunning on the other thread and am uncomfortable that this thread has a racist feel to it. Whether or not that is intentional I am discomfitted.
I don't like slaughter without stunning but I loathe racism.
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The world is a big place with many religions, I would think most animals on the planet are not killed in an Abbatoir, esecially one with all its regs in place. I personally think loading animals up, sending them away to await there turn in being slaughterd is cruel. On of the reasons I dont keep pigs. I know Halal has to be done right or they are going against their religion, which they follow with respect and if you think about it we are the great meat eaters, a lot of the world have a lot of vegetarian or fish meals Have you seen how fish die, they are suffocated to death or stunned! Indeed I would think if Halal eaters saw the way our animals are prodded , stressed out and treated in our slaughter houses they would be just as sickened. The rest of the post is ditto what Sally said
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It's got nothing to do with racism, it's about people's perceptions of animal welfare. At the abatoir where I used to work they used to kill up to 8000 lambs a day using a captive bolt then bleeding. The meat was classed as halal due to there being a bloke there reading from the koran while the sheep were killed. The slaughtermen were not muslims. The meat is exactly the same as non halal meat. It's just people's perception.
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I agree hermit. Although i don't for one minute think people on here are voicing their opinion through racism, I do think that we in the western world have a different perception when it comes to animal cruelty in other religions and countries. We do tend to judge everyone else by our standards, but it is alot more complex than that.
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From my expirence what hughesy said is true alot of Halal meat is stunned before slaughter, and a prayer is said by an Imman! There are different opinions in the muslim world, but most in the UK are fine with animals being pre-stunned before bleeding. I think the comments about racism were more due to the fact everyone goes on about how barbaric Halal slaughter is and mentions nothing of Kosher, which is esentially the same process.
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Just taken my billyboys in this morning, we discussed Halal, the chap said stunning was acceptable for Halal and they supplied such meat, (dare I say he was white and english), can't imagine them reading the Koran either.
Many years ago a slaughter man was telling me they once had a surprise visit from an inspector, they had to run round knocking big nails into all the dead animals heads.
Who's barbaric?
depends what you hear or see.
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I've been learning more about slaughter and went off to do some research on halal once I noticed this thread.
I think a lot of the issue people have is through a lack of knowledge, lack of knowledge of halal slaughter and lack of knowledge on 'western' slaughter.
It's interesting that according to a 'study' (have seen in referenced but not seen the study and this is the internet so anything can be said), more pain is felt from the stunning process than if the animal has it's throat slit first. I was also surprised on the website of an organic halal producer that most abbatoirs in this country aren't set up for non-stunning slaughter and so animals receive a stun that knocks them out for 15-20 seconds in which time they can be killed according to halal law (the animal is still alive and would survive if just left on it's own), but is not concious for the killing process. I personally cannot see anything wrong with this way of slaughter and indeed the fact that for meat to be labelled halal the animal must be treated respectfully makes it somewhat more appealing than 'western' slaughter that does not have that requirement.
Slaughter is never going to be nice. It is never going to be pain or stress free for the animal. Western slaughter has it's downsides too. However as meat eaters all we can aim for is the animal to have had a good life and a quick and respectful send off, and after a short time reading I'm no longer sure that halal falls short of this.
I really think that we need more education about where our food comes from in this country, whether it is slaughtered western, kosher or halal and that will lead to a lot less assumption and less prejudice.
Dans (who also sees nothing wrong with outdoor cremation but that's a whole other post).
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i butcher my own pigs and always look for the stun marks on the carcus. clearly visible.
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I think I made my views on Halal clear on the other thread. I don't know wether each animal has a prayer said or the whole batch are blessed - it might vary.
When I was farming fish, I did halal slaughter, we had a few groups from Leicester come to buy, because it is very hard to get fish as a Muslim. Muslims cannot eat fish that has suffocated, so thats all trawler caught fish out of the equation, neither can it go back in the water after it is 'caught' so our fish-killer, which was basically a salt water bath through which a voltage was passed was also out.
Essentially, this meant I had to knock each trout on the head, which I have no problems with - some Imams would bless each fish and some would just bless the whole basket and leave me to get on with the head knocking. The prayer is very short.
I think the people who loudly pronounce it a 'disgusting' practice often have no frame of reference anyway. I have also slaughtered hundreds of turkeys in my time, by hand where the 'stunner' was in essence, a stick (non halal :P ).
My next-door neighbour worked as a slaughterman years ago (non-halal) and he has some stories which I wont repeat on the internet, suffice to say that for those who think the bolt/stunner kills the animal, it doesn't, it is the bleeding that kills it, which happens in Halal and non-halal slaughter.
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Well I thought that the bolt/stunner were obviously meant to stun and not to kill. Clearly a lot more misinformation than I thought out there.
I qualified as a vet and what they teach us and what we see in various abattoirs is this: animals arrive, vet is supposed to check that each is healthy enough to be killed, they are only supposed to stand in waiting pens for no longer than 2 hours (30min if birds/rabbits), if longer they must be given food and water, if staying overnight they must have shelter from the elements.
When their time comes, they need to go in single file towards the stunning area, where they are stunned using various techniques. The following animal is not supposed to see what happens to the one in front, although I will agree that they are not stupid and even if they don't see, they can still hear and smell death.
Bolts are mostly used for cattle, horses and sheep. For pigs it is easier to use electrocution, or some big places have CO2 chambers. All of these techniques are meant to make the animal unconscious, and not to kill. If they are killed during stunning procedures, the staff hasn't been properly trained. Being unconscious does not mean that the animal might recover. In fact, most stunning techniques were devised to induce permanent unconsciousness.
It is duty of the staff to hoist them asap and bleed them by severing he big vessels in the neck. THAT is when they die, from terminal bleeding and not before.
So the stunning is supposed to ease their passing from alive to unconscious to dead without feeling too much pain.
If somebody said that ANY killing method is better than another because there's no pain, I would call that b*****t; in any method there is a certain amount of pain, and stress due to the handling (I agree, most rough in some cases). It is our duty to make the amount of pain and stress the smallest possible, but it cannot ever be completely annulled.
So I think that whichever way it is done, whether Western or Halal or Kosher, if done properly and following the rules none is supposed to be better or worse for the animals. Even those methods that were based on ancient religious practices still keep the animal welfare in high regard. They all strive to make the process as quick and painless as possible - repeat, if done following the rules.
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I am preparing to send my goat, Curry, to the abbatoir. I wish I hadn't read this thread. He's going to a very small one though, where they take up to eight animals a day.
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MGM, if I were you I'd feel happier that Curry goes to a small abattoir and not a big commercial affair. He's going to be treated with respect, I'm sure and you shouldn't feel too bad about it :bouquet: :hug:
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Just reading this tread makes me realise the we all actually CARE how our animals are killed and discuss it and IMHO yes it is for the animal never going to be a totally sress and pain free process, but as previous posters have said if done right can at least minimise that and we should be proud of that and MGM I wish that I had access to a small abattoir like that. I am sure they will be treated with respect too :bouquet:
Pauline
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Well I thought that the bolt/stunner were obviously meant to stun and not to kill. Clearly a lot more misinformation than I thought out there.
I don't think its misinformation, I think its just a wrong assumption people make - a blow to the head or a voltage and it closes its eyes and shudders etc so they presume it is dead.