The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: trefnantbach on November 16, 2012, 06:31:05 pm
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has any one any advice on the type of firearm suitable for fox control and ocassional rabbit? dont know a thing about guns but have no choicce
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You are in the hands of the local constabulary on this, and they don't all agree. Assuming you meet the criteria for possession of a firearm (and they will probably want you to undergo a period of training with a club) then they will either permit .22 or .17 for small vermin.
It's easier to get a shotgun certificate but its is a pretty bad idea for foxes and not that reliable for rabbits unless you can get really close and don't mind waiting a very long time between shots. There are silenced shotguns available but they're a bit clunky.
.17 is a more expensive version of .22 but the bullet goes much faster (so flatter trajectory) and fragments on impact rather than going through the target and hitting the bloke standing 400m behind it. But I believe it is much easier to silence a .22 which gives you more chances.
Talk to the firearms officer and see what he's happy with.
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Can you not get a local stalker/gamekeeper to come out and help you?
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A .22 is a bit small for foxes, IMO - I think the most popular calibre is .22-250 rem. Not sure, but I think my neighbour uses his .243 most of the time for foxes.
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has any one any advice on the type of firearm suitable for fox control and ocassional rabbit? dont know a thing about guns but have no choicce
trefnantbach, if you know nothing about guns then you need to join a Gun Club and learn to shoot one before picking one up and pointing it at a fox or other live animal. Once you've learned to handle one then hopefully you or your new friends at the Gun Club will know enough to help you make the choice of one to own.
In the meantime, contact your local Hunt to discuss fox control. They will probably also be able to advise on local ferreters or other folks who can undertake a bit of rabbit control for you.
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Try your local gun shop for advise too.
They and other local enthusiasts will happily come and shoot for you.
We had a fox as well as other vermin. A couple of young lads helped us. We signed to say they had permission to shoot on our land, they got to shoot and we got a problem solved. All by mutual agreement and cost nothing.
I had my husband peeing on the boundary for weeks, apparent fox deterrent. Tried tested, fail :(
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A .22 is a bit small for foxes, IMO - I think the most popular calibre is .22-250 rem. Not sure, but I think my neighbour uses his .243 most of the time for foxes.
Totally agree air rifle no good for fox, you'll have to go down the FAC route for this one... Where about are you? There's someone in our shooting club who has the right gun for the job if your not to far away
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I know pest control people if you are not too far. Will pm you
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A .22 is a bit small for foxes, IMO - I think the most popular calibre is .22-250 rem. Not sure, but I think my neighbour uses his .243 most of the time for foxes.
Totally agree air rifle no good for fox, you'll have to go down the FAC route for this one... Where about are you? There's someone in our shooting club who has the right gun for the job if your not to far away
I'd meant a .22 round as opposed to a .22cal air rifle pellet. You can stop a fox with a .22 rifle (not air rifle), its just you need a pretty decent between the eyes shot.
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has any one any advice on the type of firearm suitable for fox control and ocassional rabbit? dont know a thing about guns but have no choicce
Why do you have no choice? i have no problem with popping off a few :rant: rabbits or foxes if they are taking chickens but a lot can be done to deter foxes with adequate fencing and observations of activity, the gun can be the lazy option.
As the others say if you've never had any experience with guns use your brains you can't just get a gun and point it ::) seen too many of that type on shoot days, townies who've never shot a thing in their life and expect to be able to bag pheasants ::) give me strength!
Speak to your local gun club organisations like BASC or CLA can also advise.
Mandy :pig:
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I missed the bit about the occasional rabbit - in that case a .22 rimfire is probably your tool of choice. Were it me, I'd want a .17 for the rabbits and something bigger for the foxes (if you get a .243 you could do deer too). The thing about the .17 is that the noise it makes when it hits a rabbit seems to be quiet enough not to send the others scarpering, whereas the 'thunk' when one is hit by a .22 round does.
I wouldn't think you would get the ticket unless you were deemed competent. I have never been part of a shooting club or whatever, were I you I would make friends with someone who shoots foxes regularly - ie a 'keeper. The licensing officers like it if you have a mentor to show you the ropes.
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My OH own's and shoots regularly with Rimfire .17 and .22 and also shotgun.
His advise as some have mentioned is to contact initially the firearms department (local police station will tell you)for your area then he will visit you.
There are lots of things he will look at and concider (Quarry, backstops land layout, your competence etc etc etc) he will then tell you the type of gun that is required and can give advise on its storage.(type of cabinet, positioning securing to wall etc etc) The next step is to apply for your license. (thats another story if you go down the route)
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Trefnantbach you don't mention what it is you want to protect from foxes. Problem with shooting them is that within a short time another one will move into the vacant territory and you have to start again. It's often better to protect your stock in some way making it difficult or impossible for foxy to get at them.
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Thats okay, bullets aren't that expensive. Just shoot the next one.
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Guys, I am really quite distressed at this talk of getting a gun and shooting a fox.
It makes it sound as though anyone can pick up a shotgun (or .22 or whatever), point, pull and have a dead fox.
If you are going to shoot a living creature, I would hope that you are going to want to be completely sure that you will kill it outright 100% - and that if you wound it, you would have the wherewithall (dog and commitment) to track it down and dispatch it.
Have-a-go unskilled chicken owners should please, if they have a local hunt, first call in the experts - who do not ever leave a wounded fox. (They may not catch it every time, but if it's wounded, it's a goner.)
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We bought a trap to catch the fox that was coming in during the day and taking our chickens but all we caught were badgers. Letting them go was scarey, have you seen their teeth ? In the end David my farmer friend shot it when it tried to get his cats. We think it was a hand reared fox that someone released back into the countryside as it had no fear of people at all.
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Agree SIN see my post above. Gun ownership and use should not be enterd into lightly and all the rules surrounding them MUST be obeyed.
mandy :pig:
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Sally, while I have hunted the perimeter fence of Luton Airport - and seeing an EasyJet 737 taking off less than 100m away was completely surreal but didn't bother the horses - the hunt is not going where the offending vixen lives. Far too many people looking... ;)
This one has had all our chickens three times and removed 18 of the 20 carcasses over half a mile. She knows what she's doing and she's a repeat offender. But it won't be me but a local marksman. Frankly I'm less bothered about her than the traffic on the trunk road she crosses to get here. Taking out the odd Vectra in error would be a problem ???
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I hear ya, SF ;)
I have no problem with a marksman - or woman - shooting a fox, provided they have a dog or dogs at hand in case of wounding it.
My issue is with unskilled gunmen or women taking pot shots at animals they are far more likely to wing than kill :rant:
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I can't see people being granted a license for a .243 or whatever unless the firearms officer thought they were competent and the land was passed for its use.
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Round here that goes for the .22 as well. Basically the firearms officer wants a very good reason why he should stick his neck out and let you endanger the public. However, since he hands out shotgun certificates like confetti the risk is that people use them on a fox because its what they have rather than need.
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Well thats because, legally when you apply for a shotgun certificate, it is your right to have one and the police must prove why you shouldn't be granted one in order to refuse one, wheras with rifles the opposite is true and you have to prove why you should be granted one.
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Have to agree with Sally though. It is so easy to wound a fox rather than killing it unless you really know what you are doing. Last time there was a fox shoot here earlier in the year I think we had around 12 guns with terriers and gun dogs and they really knew what they were doing. The alternative is to find someone skilled in calling the foxes in which case you don't need so many people but you do need someone who is totally reliable. Calling the foxes usually means a close range kill but it takes considerable skill and patience.
I was taught to shoot as soon as I was old enough to fire a 20 bore by a gunmaker but even after all these years I wouldn't contemplate going after foxes unless I had been practising very regularly and was confident I wasn't going to wound one.
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Have to agree with Sally though. It is so easy to wound a fox rather than killing it unless you really know what you are doing. Last time there was a fox shoot here earlier in the year I think we had around 12 guns with terriers and gun dogs and they really knew what they were doing. The alternative is to find someone skilled in calling the foxes in which case you don't need so many people but you do need someone who is totally reliable. Calling the foxes usually means a close range kill but it takes considerable skill and patience.
I was taught to shoot as soon as I was old enough to fire a 20 bore by a gunmaker but even after all these years I wouldn't contemplate going after foxes unless I had been practising very regularly and was confident I wasn't going to wound one.
All you need to call a fox is a piece of polystyrene and your landrover window. ;)
That shoot sounds like it was a shotgun based fox shoot - its a totally different ballgame to rifle shooting foxes. I would only shoot a fox with a 12ga at close range with BBs, say. I have some in the cupboard on the off chance I catch him sniffing round the henhouse.
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I would only shoot a fox with a 12ga at close range with BBs, say. I have some in the cupboard on the off chance I catch him sniffing round the henhouse.
I have some 42g no.3 cartridges for the same purpose. Close range with a shotgun is well less than ten yards. With a rifle my local rat catcher seems to like 50-75 yards
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A 22LR ( Long Rifle ) rimfire is a great rifle for rabbits, but marginal for fox. It is commonly used with sub-sonic ammunition, this means the bullet is travelling slower than the speed of sound ( at about 1050 Feet Per Second ) and thus doesn't produce the "crack" by breaking the sound barrier. The slow speed of the subsonic bullet means the trajectory is pronounced and power is limited, so use it for rabbits up to about 70 yards ( with practice ). Power is measured in Foot Pounds Energy, a UK legal air rifle must produce less than 12fpe, the 22LR with subsonic ammunition produces about 100fpe. High velocity ammunition is also available which produces up to 200fpe, this would be more suitable for fox but only at close range.
The next step up is the 17HMR, this is also a rimfire so ammunition is quite cheap. The HMR bullet is smaller and lighter than the 22LR, but it travels a lot faster at about 2550 FPS and causes more damage. It's very humane on rabbits and useable on fox up to about 100yds. It's easier to use than the 22LR because the faster bullet has a flatter trajectory and is slightly less affected by wind. Many people will tell you that the small HMR bullet is blown around by the wind more than the 22LR bullet, but they are wrong. The HMR produces approx 275fpe.
A less common rimfire is the 22WMR ( Winchester Magnum Rimfire ). This fires a similar sized bullet to the 22LR, but a lot faster. The bullets are all faster than the speed of sound, so make quite a sonic crack. The trajectory is not as flat as the HMR, and is more affected by wind, however is makes typically 340fpe and will cleanly kill a fox at 100yds.
Rimfire rifles are great vermin rifles, the ammunition is relatively cheap, but the power is limited because the rimfire case cannot stand a lot of pressure.
If you want to get a rifle specifically for fox or for regular fox control then you need a centrefire rifle. The smallest calibre commonly used is the 22 Hornet, the ammunition can be bought and reloaded quite cheaply but in my opinion if you're going to get a centrefire for fox you may as well get one that will allow you to do so at longer range, so I reckon a 223 or better still a 22-250 is your best bet.
Of course none of these are worth squit if you can't hit the target and that means hitting a small area of the fox / rabbit that will ensure a humane kill. You can learn the basics of marksmanship with an air rifle, but perhaps a better idea would be to apply for membership of a rifle club. There is a statutory 6 month probationary period during which you will get to use a club rifle and benefit from loads of people who will teach you how to shoot. You don't actually have to join the club, you can apply for your FAC on a vermin condition, but you will definitely benefit from the tuition and advice in a safe environment.
If you decide not to pursue this route you can always join a shooting forum online, there will be no shortage of people who will be happy to kill your foxes for free if you allow them to take a few rabbits for the pot too.
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Thank you. That was remarkably clear
I know all proper hobbies and professions surround themselves with jargon to keep out interlopers but shooters really seems to take the biscuit. Whenever you think you're starting to understand it they drop inches and talk millimetres. Or grains. Or joules.
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I know a professional trapper near here who will come and electronically call and shoot coyotes. They are far more destructive than foxes and they work in packs. Oddly enough we do have red foxes too, but nobody worries about them, so destructive are the coyotes.
One time he was stretching a coyote pelt, he sells them at the fur auctions, and we heard a ping ping sound on the floor of the hut as he stretched the skin. It was .22 bullets that had been fired at the animal at various times in its life, about 15 in total, all varying ages. Not enough to kill a running animal but enough to cause it considerable pain I would think.
As to getting gun clubs in on your land to shoot for you, I think on balance I would rather have the coyotes. ;)
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Thank you. That was remarkably clear
I know all proper hobbies and professions surround themselves with jargon to keep out interlopers but shooters really seems to take the biscuit. Whenever you think you're starting to understand it they drop inches and talk millimetres. Or grains. Or joules.
The most difficult thing for a newcomer to grasp is how shooters refer to different cartridges. For example a .22LR, .22 Hornet and 22-250 are all nominal .22" bore, but very different cartridges with very different capabilities. Then they call the same cartridge by metric and imperial names, .308 = 7.62mm , .223 = 5.56mm, then you have 7.62 x 39, 7.62 x 51, 7.62 x 54 etc. etc. depending on case length.
Then there's the British way, just make up a number, .303 has a bore size of .311 so is actually bigger than the .308 calibre.
Anyway, enough jargon, if you have any questions please feel free to ask on forum or via PM and I'll do my best to help.
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Been reading this with interest and I have to ask.... is there a maximum calibre or anything you are limited to in the U.K.? Also is there a limit on how many rounds your magazine is allowed to hold? Or is it more a case of your weapon has to be suitable for the size of area you will be using it in?
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Been reading this with interest and I have to ask.... is there a maximum calibre or anything you are limited to in the U.K.? Also is there a limit on how many rounds your magazine is allowed to hold? Or is it more a case of your weapon has to be suitable for the size of area you will be using it in?
You are limited by land, rather than calibre. For example, you can own a .50BMG cal rifle if you are a member of a club that has access to a range that is cleared for that calibre. There aren't many ranges that have a big enough safe area and strong enough backstops, but there are a few military ranges that allow club use.
For shooting on your own land, or land you have permission to shoot over, you need an inspection by the local FEO ( Firearms Enquiry Officer ), he/she will assess your land and "clear" it for an appropriate calibre. So for example if you apply for a rifle to control fox on your 20 acre farm the FEO might suggest that a 22 Hornet is adequate because the land isn't huge and you are unlikely to be taking a long shot due to the requirements of having a safe backstop to stop the bullet from leaving your property. If you applied for the same for your 200 acre holding in the highlands he might well suggest a 22-250 or a 243 because you have mountains as a backstop and the fox might well be 350yds away across a gulley. Backstops are important, I had my 17 acre woodland cleared for 22 Hornet even though it was very close ( 100yds ) to the village, because the backstops were excellent.
After a while, if you can demonstrate adequate experience, you can have your firearms certificate "opened", this changes the wording on your certificate to allow you to make the decision yourself as to whether it is safe to shoot on a piece of land. This is useful if you intend to shoot fox for your neighbours as it allows you to respond to a call without having to book a visit from the FEO to inspect the land.
There are two numbers regarding ammunition, a "hold" limit and a "purchase" limit. The FEO will try to give you the smallest limit he can based on your intended use of the rifle. So for example, if you apply for a 22LR for rabbit control he will probably offer you a 600 hold limit and a 500 purchase limit, this is OK as bulk packs are 500 rounds and you will still have 100 left in case you have a few from the last purchase left. 500 rounds lasts quite a long time for rabbit control, but if you also intended to use the rifle for target shooting you could easily use 200 rounds a week so your FEO will grant you a 2000 limit ( if you ask nicely ).
Hope that helps.
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Thank you for your response, very informative and answered everything i needed :thumbsup:
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Just to add my two pennyworth, I use .17HMR for rabbits and for urban foxes - usually shooting down from an upper-storey window and using the lawn as a backstop. I've got an 'open' licence so I don't need 'cleared' land but can judge safety for myself.
For rural fox, I use a .222 centrefire with frangible rounds that avoid the risk of ricochet (as does the .17). Good for a chest shot out to about 250yds.