The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Renewables => Topic started by: Bumblebear on October 31, 2012, 10:40:56 am
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Hi there, has anyone got experience in growing poplars for fuel? http://www.bowhayestrees.co.uk/logging.html (http://www.bowhayestrees.co.uk/logging.html)
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I'm thinking about doing this as well. Either poplar or willows. I've heard mixed reports, but haven't been able to speak to anyone whose actually tried it. Really interested to hear about other people's experience.
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well the linked page seems convincing enough, isnt it just what people have done for aeons, mak has experience of chestnut coppicing for fuel (iirc)
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I know some say that all wood has the same CV/Tonne, but I cant help believing... "Poplar – avoid all poplar wood – it burns very slowly with little heat – which is why poplar is used to make matchsticks"
I have the book from this link, and really enjoy it http://www.wildeye.co.uk/trees/firewood.html (http://www.wildeye.co.uk/trees/firewood.html) I have seen other sites talk about burning poplar sp Ok though
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That's excellent FiB! The book/link says that willow is very good for burning. That's my dilemma settled then. Willows to be planted in all the shady spots this autumn. :thumbsup:
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We planted some willow two years ago last spring and will be getting a firewood crop next year. It's grown fast - we'll have to leave it to dry for a good while though.
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Willow grows very fast but it also burns very fast so you need some harder wood to complement it. We planted up a new coppice a few years ago with willow, hazel and ash - ash burns beautifully but with this new ash disease spreading rapidly it looks as if we will have to start planting something else.
We have a little poplar but haven't tried burning it. Lawson cyprus is the most horrible stuff to burn - it stays black and gives out no heat.
Remember with willow that if you have sheep you can put your cut branches into their paddock and they will remove the bark for you, ready for litter-free stacking :thumbsup:
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I was just having a talk about this with the OH.
We were thinking poplar from our brief search of the tinterwebs.
Has anyone had experience of burning poplar? Our experience of burning wood is just shop bought and we've never paid any notice to species.
Dans
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When we moved to our place we asked for three poplars to be topped (is that the right phrase) Anyway we were left with loads of wood which I split and have been happily using it in the two woodburners we have.
It seems to burn quite nicely though we get through quite a lot.
I have also planted around 500 willow rods which have been interesting to see which have been successful. The ones that have had an element of shade have shot up. Some in full soon too close to the horrible conifers which border the property have struggled and some died.
If only the conifers could be hacked down and then left to season and then put in the wood burner I would probably have a wood supply for the next decade - but I fear they would tar up the chimney!
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Hmmm, I'm now thinking poplar and willow combined with horse poop. :thinking:
Dans
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i saw a guy on tv talking about his willow plantation, he reckoned that if you planted each one in a square meter of membrane the growth would be up to 5 times faster, due to the lack of competition from grass etc.
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I saw that too and suspect he is totally right. I didn't bother and they are fine but not huge so probably well worth putting in the effort with weed matting.
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The advantages of poplar and willow are that they are fast growers. This firewood - seasoned - burns hot but quickly. You can get through quite a lot in a short time.
I guess you can say that grass can take the nutrients away from growing willow, but I think this is probably a bit fussy. I'd say just the plant the willow somewhere wet, and like all trees if you keep an eye on them for the first year and steer them through successfully then they should be fine (and - yes - willow is a favourite sheep delicacy!)
Wendy@blueborage
blueborage.blogspot.com
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The supplier of the willow I bought also suggested that competition from grass and weeds could really hinder first year growth. Given I was planting 500 rods I didn't do anything - but the suggestion was weed matting and or weed killer for the ground prior to planting/ This isn't the only place I've seen this suggested.
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A mix of wood is a good suggestion.
If you go with willow and popular you may have to think of how much you need to harvest.
There is a table on the www that compares the thermal output different woods.
You may have to give some serious thought to the following.
1. Quantity you will need to harvest and how to get it back to your store.
2. Size, aspect and wind flow of covered outside store.
3. An indoor store or a good route into the house with arms full of wood is important.
The above sounds simples but if you need to store 3 tonne of wood per year then you have some serious haulage and storrage issues - even if you stack the first years wood harvest outside you will probabley still need a very large undercover store for older wood that is drying and even older wood that is ready to burn.
Indoor store - if you are burning popular then how much a day do you expect to carry into the house? If you have space in the house to store a days worth then a few wood runs in the morning may be better than having to sclapp in and out of the house all day and night.
Right - off to get some more wood from outside now :-J
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Hello,
Last year I'd got a load of 18 m3 of ash brought over to split, only problem was that ash was poplar. It's dried out, split to roughly 8 cm cross sections it will dry out in half a year, stacked with decent air circulation under cover, but it is worthless for heating even though my neighbor loves his. It also can be far more work to split than, lets use ash again for example. In fact it is one of my least favorite wood to split with an axe, but not as bad as horse chestnut - nothing's as cranky as horse chestnut, also another one of those woods that will give out a flame but has so little energy to release. I'll take poplar, but not happily, because it is available and I have space, but I make every effort to avoid it except for certain building projects. There it can be very well worth the effort to acquire.
For planting and harvesting ones own fire wood the effort would be much better spent putting in ash, some maple species, sweet chestnut, alder's not bad, just those medium hard hardwoods that store up much more energy. Willow is a bit heavier than poplar, how do I know, because every year about this time I get two pair of wooden shoes from the shoe maker, one pair willow and one pair poplar to last me the coming year, but for stopping in the wood burner there will be no practical difference.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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sadly ash may be joining the endangered species list :(
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thats a really scary proposition. ive heard about this disease too. following the devestation the phytopthera clearanc ehas wreaked on our woods here, if we lost the ash too there wouldnt be much left.
however i did see something about a nutrient 'cure' for the ash disease.
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Hello,
sadly ash may be joining the endangered species list :(
I don't think so yet and hope not having lived through one of those die-outs in the Western US - Lodgepole pine wiped out in whole sections, truly sickening.
It seems left alone some of the stricken ash recover. I have one or two out back that were laid low this year looking like they had gotten a bad hair-cut but I will leave them and hope, like the two along the road there I had given up for lost last year but are doing good now, recovery sets in. Just don't burn poplar anyway, it gives the appearance of making you warm, lacking the substance thereof.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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intersting, thanks Don. The information we have about the ash disease is limited in the UK, so it's good to get some information from someone with real experience of it. I hope you're right.
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I can't comment on what to grow, but when I comes to what to burn I say ANYTHING!
Peeps round here despise Elm, but that is my favourite wood to burn. I love burning dead Hazel harvested from the hedges, burns like charcoal and is fab for cooking on.
Ash is great but I don't pay for stuff just to set fire to it and if you want ash here you gots to buy it ::)
Beech is lovely, as is Sycamore. Applewood and Hawthorn are wonderful for cooking on. I don't recall ever burning Poplar, but would if got hold of any ;D
Willow I love once it has dried for a few years, Oak is lovely too. Pine is easy to get and burns HOT.
As we speak I have a fire of Beech and dead Hazel on the go and it is about a million degrees in my truck :relief:
Burn what you can get, except Elder. Never burn the witches tree ;)
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Yep - as Colliewoman says if it is free then burn it. Colliwaman - do you have a burner in your truck ?
Also why is some wood better to cook on ? - more sustained even temperatures?
We are pretty much surrounded by sweet chestnut. If you cut the principle tree then long poles shoot up. These are easy to cut , pull out of the woods then cut to logs or split if needed. I guess people know that but I have taken to re-visiting cut trees and pull up the stump and some root. this seasoned wood is very dense and burns much slower that the poles it yielded. The roots are difficlt to cut and stack and are a bit tricky to get in the logburner but worth it.
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Yup I have a wood burner in the truck ;D
The better wood for cooking burns HOT and consistently like I said dead Hazel is my favourite for this. Root wood is FAB for keeping the burner in overnight :thumbsup: In a truck this is most important, no one likes a chilly truck :D
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nothing worse. i hope you got the door insulated.
the best, overnighting wood is a long dead oak root ball. chopped up to burner sized lumps, it will be half burned by morning, just open her up and off she goes!
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Come on. A wood burner in the truck? Wow. Any photos?
:excited:
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fab thread! many many thanks.
i have about 20 rods (?) of willow that i chucked in pots last year. couldnt decide what to do with them and had just decided to put them on the compost....first thing tomorrow i think perhaps they will be rescued and planted elsewhere.
my main question, will the rabbits chew at the bark if i just plant out without protection?
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Yep - I planted 500 willow rods - all had to have rabbit guards. Rabbits here gnaw on anything their noses come into contact with.
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Come on. A wood burner in the truck? Wow. Any photos?
:excited:
No can do as my camera is all broked :'( But Dave has seen it haven't you Dave? Or was it still in the fire pit when you were here??
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fab thread! many many thanks.
i have about 20 rods (?) of willow that i chucked in pots last year. couldnt decide what to do with them and had just decided to put them on the compost....first thing tomorrow i think perhaps they will be rescued and planted elsewhere.
my main question, will the rabbits chew at the bark if i just plant out without protection?
All of my rabbits would willingly sell their souls for willow whips, i would definitely protect them ;) :bunny:
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nearly every converted horsebox, truck, caravan, bus, that has been converted to be lived in has had a wood burner.
nothing else will provide dry heat suitable for healthy living.
have you never been in a travellers bus mak? that is something that needs to be sorted!!
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Mmm a bit dum of me - I just did not put Truck and home together. The idiot I am I thought he had one in the dash board to heat the truck when out for the day.. ha ha.
never been on a travellers truck but I do remember that when the repaired roads in London the nightwatchman had a brazer outside We would help him fill oil lamps inside his wooden "truck" in front of his fire. Health and Safety - nah
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Hello,
Free wood would mean to me something like this:
Cut, split, dried, delivered and stacked near where I was going to burn it.
Other than that there are costs involved and when it comes to a wood say like mature horse chestnut and I have to split it, the cost outweighs the return - to get overly bogged down in the language of economics.
But I do also revel in burning particular woods in particular form, lets say split cherry, oak, pseudo acacia, apple, birch as our Swedish and Finish friends know all to well. And because of being something of a thrill seeker I even like burning some of the conifers we sometimes have available. I dream and then wake to the cruelty of still having 15 m3 of poplar out back to get through....
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
Even more astonishing than a wood burner in a truck is a truck with a computer, but that is just me.
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collie womans, got both!
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Yeah, I gathered that much. Impressive.
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We're very posh here you know :innocent:
Free to me means not paying any cash. I don't mind being out all day wooding and working a sweat up. That is good for me and I can have my dogs with me etc.
What I do resesnt is having to work more than strictly needed in babylon for the man, just to be given some cash to spend on something to set fire to ;D
I 'work' the very bare minimum I need to to bring in the small amount of money I need, spending the rest of my time outside with my animals or walking through nature will, no matter how tiring, seem like work to me :thumbsup:
Though I must admit I do now need to do a few extra hours, cos someone has nicked my bow saw >:(
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But horse chestnut now. It is gnarly, it is twisted, it is sloppy and once you have overcome all that 'n the rest of it, you will put it in the fire, it will flair up and be gone before you can roast your marshmallow with it. It's not a description of fun to me, that one.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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Horse Chestnut are the conkers right ;D
The sweet chestnut trees must be a very different wood. The poles ( new wood that has shot skywood when the main tree has been cut) often die back but remain standing a few years - they are dry and so easy to harvest. A long pole can be cut into log size bits with the thin bits used to restart the fire. The trunks of the couple of very old trees ( that had fallen some yearsback) could be split into 6 or 8. They burn really well. I have been given a large sweet chestnut that fell down a bank in "1997" - virtually all of it is off the ground as the bank and a few large branches has held it up. Should be fun cutting it and moving bits to the track - think I'll take a picnic.
I have time but no money so I consider this free fuel. The first year here we bought 1000 Euros of wood - now I harvest my neighbours wood and split it 50-50 with her. I thus earn 1000 Euros a year ( I get a years supply of wood). It is like going to work for me.
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yup, horse and sweet are completely different trees.
Horse:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesculus_hippocastanum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesculus_hippocastanum)
Sweet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_chestnut (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_chestnut)
Sweet chestnut is a great tree, fantastic timber useful for a wide range of situations (really good for fence posts) whereas horse is... less useful.
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Hello,
Sweet chestnut that was out back there for a number of years which I sort of inherited from a neighbor who passed on before he ever got to use.
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss304/DonWagstaff/DSCF1855.jpg)
(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss304/DonWagstaff/DSCF1963.jpg)
It is a shame to burn sweet chestnut but in a different way than burning horse chestnut.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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I agree sweet chestnut is a great wood. It's our favourite firewood for burning (with hornbeam) although it can spit a bit. We have a log burner so that's not a problem. We've also cut down sweet chestnut trunks for the frames of our new barn.
Wendy@blueborage
blueborage.blogspot.com
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Donald - my other half wants some of those boards to make her jig saw puzzels. ;D
I can not split them that thin by hand.
We have a place down the road that sells them for roofs and for buldings like you show in your great photos. But they are cut in a wedge shape ( uneven thickness) to aid roof laying. I have 10 that I have to plane down for her - yuck job.
Have the cranes left northern NL yet ? They have not flown over us yet on their way south.
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use a froe mak.
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. But they are cut in a wedge shape ( uneven thickness) to aid roof laying. I have 10 that I have to plane down for her - yuck job.
radial cut, not bastard shingles then . Not often you can use that word legitimately!!! Spent a hard weekend making hundreds (felt like thousands), and a large pile of fireood :innocent: , for a Viking longhouse once. Those look fab Donald. Shingle envy.
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I am in love with those shingles :love:
I don't recall ever having burned horse chestnut, so can't comment on the effort to heat factor :-\
But I have been out with my mate this morning and we have collected a WHOLE Elm tree, lots of Hazel, a van full of 5 inch diameter ASH!!!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Some Sycamore and a dozen or so 8 foot lengths of Holly about 4 inch diameter :sunshine: :sunshine: :sunshine: :sunshine: :sunshine: :sunshine: :sunshine:
All for free no pennies ;D ;D ;D and a day laughing so hard my ribs hurt!
I gots me some Ash!!!! Going back out in a bit for some more :excited:
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holly will burn green, and stays in for ages, takes quite a bit of heat to get it going tho, then it glows like coal.
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Ace! Never scored any Holly before but was arguing with Mr Landlord that you could burn it green! I win :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Hello,
That would be a difference from here where I am. Were (when) I (to) go around collecting like that it wouldn't (wasn't) (be) long before I would (did) have local and provincial authorities on my tail. After all is said and done, here in the north of the Netherlands - the most densely populated country on Earth, the available firewood has become, these past three years, completely locked up in the hands of the wood merchants. Oh well, I am resigned to it now anyway.
But I was afraid holly would rear its head and so I can only contribute my sad experience, which is this. Some years ago I would haul top quality very low cost firewood from my local sawmill and it included once a load of bone dry holly. Every time I burned a load it would spew thick black smoke over the whole village for half of the burn or about an hour. Mixed with a high ratio of other good wood it's fine but alone, in my situation, that was the only wood I really had trouble with.
I have better memories of this sweet chestnut. Even dry it is a pleasure to work and Mak, you should just keep at it, with a fro like the suggestion, but also some wedges like this to begin.(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss304/DonWagstaff/Shingles/DSCF1837.jpg) I'm waiting to locate more of it so I can get the other half of my shed shingled. This is what I call really fun work with a good pay-off.
And here too.
https://vimeo.com/44562237 (https://vimeo.com/44562237) or here is a better go at it https://vimeo.com/53267333 (https://vimeo.com/53267333)
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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Dave - you try buying a froe. I tried useing a chinese meat clever to split them on my large tree stump.
Donald -how do you lock them in the vertical position before splitting with the metal splitters in the photo?
your photos have inspired me to try this next year. We could do with replacing the duck house or maybe a dove house .
Holly - I have a bit and split some to reveal a very interesting wood. I'm making simple candle stick holders out of the holly. Split a 12 inch log into 3 and used the middle section - sanded it down and then I cut 3 holes to take candles ( not 4 candles :-J ). The cross section holy grain of the holly is really nice too.
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oh Colliewoman - BINGO!!! What a haul, fantastic! We are burning almost 100% softwood this winter (having to burn very hot to mimimise tarring - but 3 years seasoned so should be OK), but got a great mixed stash maturing for next year. and an acre of willow planted last winter to suplement the hazel oak ash and sycamore we are growing and coppicing.
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mak, i did! a ray iles one. her.
http://www.woodsmithstore.co.uk/shop/Products/Tools/Froes/Product/Ray+Iles+Large+Froe+PREMIUM/ (http://www.woodsmithstore.co.uk/shop/Products/Tools/Froes/Product/Ray+Iles+Large+Froe+PREMIUM/)
a very useful tool, that was worth every penny.
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Hello,
Second hand, these are not costly tools nor hard to find, I got the one I use from that guy not far out of Cambridge, can't remember exactly where, the shop called Old Tools or something. But there is no substitute for a good fro.
I don't lock anything in position Mak it's all just a matter of eyeing. That video, I must admit is a bit painful for me to watch. It was the first time I had used that tool, the first time I'd ever seen one actually. Once I had tracked down some history about it, things went much better. Now I really like it though would even better were it suited to my left hand inclinations.
I'm sorry I had forgotten to answer your question about the cranes Mak, but if you meant storks, we had a good year this year almost 100% nesting pole occupancy in my observations. Other than that, geese have been coming down now out from Lapland in forceful numbers this past week to settle on the pasture lands for winter.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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We've been thinking of growing some trees for fire wood in the corner of our field. We have 4 or 5 mature willow trees but don't know if it is worth taking cuttings from them or getting hold of some little ones with roots already. Tried a few cuttings earlier this year but the geese got hold of them and stripped all the leaves. Won't be putting anything anywhere near them again.
How quickly do they grow, and at what size/age should you harvest them?
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Dicky willow will grow from green cuttings (just cut stems into 12-18" legnths and poke in the ground (making sure they are the right way up about 8-12", with minimum or 3" sticking out), but are suceptable to crowding from weed in beginning so plant through mulch or membrane if you can. You will have to protect from animals (its a lovely forage 'crop'!!) - and if you've lots of rabbits forget it!!! Good luck
here are someuseful sites -
http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,18112&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL (http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,18112&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL)
http://www.waterwillows.com/page3.htm (http://www.waterwillows.com/page3.htm)
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Thanks for that, that's really useful. We have weeping willows to take cuttings from, are they as good as any other willow varieties?
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Hello,
I have seen willow branches stuck in the ground upside down sprout and take off pretty good.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
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Put your unseasoned wood in a greenhouse with the door open and a few panes taken out of the other end. We've bought one with us to France for that reason. We expect to burn the wood cut the same year.
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Just echoing Dicky's query. Is there one variety of willow that grows faster than others, or is better for burning? Or are they all much of a muchness?
FiB, do you know what variety you planted?
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We planted about 90 willow rods three or four years ago, just got cuttings from willows in local hedgerows - that way they are already acclimatised to local conditions. Took the first harvest of single stems last year and the stumps resprouted really well so am looking forward to a good harvest in another couple of years.
The bits we cut, we leant up against the wall of a shed all summer, a bit like a half teepee. Cut the first bits for burning a couple of days ago. Yes, it burns well enough and the larger bits last quite well. have used half a wheelbarrow full on two days (stove lit from mid afternoon and then allowed to go out late evening). Remains to be seen how long the harvest from the original 90 rods lasts. Need to plant a load more though - plenty of damp places where they would do well.
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I remember poplar having been the worst wood I've ever burnt. After years of rest it never completely dried and smoked like hell. Not my preferred wood! Willow sounds interesting, as we have quite a few wild ones growing and they grow quite fast. :&>
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VSS - that's really useful information. We've got masses of willows growing wild around here, so I will trim a few in the spring and stick them in some of our wet patches.
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Having planted several thousand willow , holly , ash , poplar apple , plum and cherry own grown cuttings as well as rearing dozens 7 dozens of almonds walnuts , horse chestnuts , oaks ash & syacamore seeds for fire wood in future years may I offer tha you plant them in easy accessible rows with a wakl way inbetween the rows so you can easily push a modified wheel barrow or take a small quad & trailer between rows .
There is a product called scoot that you chuck on a hot fire it crumbs up chimney tars and they fall back down to be consumed in the fire thus keeping your chimney & flues fairly clean of the tars associated with wood burning . Over wash fires boxes also help in reducing tar build up as the volatile tars are burnt with super heated hot air before they cnter the flue.
Cherry wood is not far behind the speed of growth for willow hazel or ash it grows easily in similar places and is good for regrowth after cutting off a foot above the ground it burns well as it is full of resin.
When we burnt wood I dscovered that you need to stay clear of hawthorn as it spits like a wild cat and can break the glass of a burners door.
Elderberry is nigh on useless but does help eeke out a dwindling supply if you burn it late on in an established ash bed during the evening not expecting any great heat
Also beware of burning any root especially hawthorn most spit well and should there be a stone in the root it is likely to explode and fling shattered red hot stone out through the door glass .