The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Riverside21 on October 25, 2012, 11:54:20 am
-
Morning everyone!
We recently moved our sheep 2-3 miles 3 weeks into tupping, could this be the reason our ram has serviced all our girls twice and his efforts aren't holding?
Thanks!
-
Are they all repeating? If it was me I would get the ram down to the vet for a fertility check. A surprising number of tups are sub fertile.
Also worth checking the ewes for toxoplasmosis which can cause the ewes to keep repeating and also supressed libido and fertility in rams.
-
Possibly, it depends how stressful they found it.
Most mammals won't implant a new embryo if 'times are hard or stressful' since that's obviously not a good time to be weighed down with a pregnancy nor producing new offspring.
Then again, he might be shooting blanks :P Have you used him before? Any signs the ewes are beginning to hold now?
-
We started with a red marker, after 2 and a half weeks all but 3 had been marked red. We then changed to blue where all of them are now blue. We're just about to change to another colour to see if they mark up again. The rams a ram lamb so not used before. We took a bit of a risk by putting him to 46 girls, however I wouldn't have thought this was an issue as he has serviced all of them...twice!
-
We made two trips moving them 2-3 miles using only one deck on the trailor. The travel was no longer than 15mins, I wouldn't have thought it was too stressful
-
I would replace him NOW, if the ewes are pregnant fine if not then the second ram should hopefully do the job . GET him fertility tested so you know weather fertile or not . Even if the move was stressfull ( which i would doubt ) it would not effect 100% . Yes TOXO can lead to barren ewes but again not 100% I am getting a ram fertility tested next week costing £22 , he had an abcess on his bottom jaw last week, and if he had a temperature he may be temporarily infertile, it might be two months until he's fertile again.
-
I reckon no more than 12 ewes to a tup lamb. The worry with expecting him to get round 46 is that he may not get them at just the right time, which could be another reason for them not holding.
Enthusiasm but lack of experience in realising timing is critical possibly (like many young males ;))
I'd replace him quickly too, in case you end up with no lambs at all.
-
We are using a tup lamb this year but are using 2 so that if one is unkeen or not fertile we should still be ok. This is for 16 ewes, so it will be a nice intro for the boys too.
-
He is (in my opinion) firing blanks. If he was not sure in his technique yet I would expect him to be covering a few at least successfully.
I have used a texel tup lamb last year on 22 ewes, and all were tupped (only once ;) ) wihtin three weeks. 46 seems to be quite a lot though...
However I have also had a (proven) tup going round the ewes twice a couple of winters back, and there were no obvious signs of him being ill. Toxo could have been possible, but he was curried in the spring afterwards. Fortunately I did have another chap available.
I would replace yours now and if you are sure you really want to use him again get him fertility checked. If you are not sure (and he didn't cost an arm & a leg), then it is probably best to bring him to the market now...
-
He is (in my opinion) firing blanks. If he was not sure in his technique yet I would expect him to be covering a few at least successfully.
good point :thumbsup:
-
I would say that he was infertile too. I wouldn't have thought that number (or indeed, any, in most cases) wouldd lose embryos due to that kind of transportation.
Put another ram in quick.
-
We made two trips moving them 2-3 miles using only one deck on the trailor. The travel was no longer than 15mins, I wouldn't have thought it was too stressful
Um... is that 23 ewes on one deck? Unless it's a very very large trailer, or they're very very small ewes, they'd have been fairly packed in? Or did you mean 23 ewes across two decks, twice?
However stressful or otherwise the journey, or whatever other stress (could've had a hot air balloon going over, a pack of hounds running through - all kinds of events can cause some ewes to not implant or lose an embryo), any kind of problem would, as others have said, not usually make every one not hold.
However, if he's only a few days into the second cycle, I would just give it a few more days. When an inexperieced tup goes in, he may mark quite a lot of bottoms he hasn't fully and successfully serviced, so you may get quite a few apparent repeats for the first few days of the second cycle. But if it doesn't settle down, then definitely get another tup on the girls and either get this boy tested or send him down the road.
-
Just an update!
Amongst the flock was a small (10 ewes) pedigree flock, and a Suffolk x mule flock. The pedigree ram in question and the pedigree flock have been separated and we have put a Charollais ram to the Suffolk x mule flock. The Charollais has since marked 4 of the Suffolk x mules in 2 days. Has anyone got any more thoughts?
The trailer was of adequate size.
-
:(
Just an update!
Amongst the flock was a small (10 ewes) pedigree flock, and a Suffolk x mule flock. The pedigree ram in question and the pedigree flock have been separated and we have put a Charollais ram to the Suffolk x mule flock. The Charollais has since marked 4 of the Suffolk x mules in 2 days. Has anyone got any more thoughts?
The trailer was of adequate size.
Easier to read with a few more pixels!
Sounds like there was a problem with the ram. :(
-
Sorry, I've no idea how that happened!
I'd best book an appointment for him to see the vet!
-
In passing, I have an old book about Dorset sheep in which it says that it was believed by North Country shepherds that to make Dorsets living far from Dorset take the ram out of season, they must first be steamed up, thoroughly heated. This usually involved chasing them around the field for an hour before putting the ram in.
This was prolly a myth put about by Dorset shepherds to protect their valuable 'London Market' for Easter lambs!
They wanted to keep the trade for themselves and create a mystery about their breed's ability to lamb out of season. ;)
I mentioned this once to an American shearer who comes here, and he said that he was always told that you get more 'activity' if you move the ewes just before tupping. Widely believed in the US Mid-West.
-
Just a quickie; we have had a lot of repeats this year and so have a lot of our friends, our tups go in July. We have put it down to weather so far but who knows ?
We know our ram is fertile but i think a lot of early lambers are having problems this year.
One friend of ours has Suffolks and has had 75 % of the flock repeat to a very experienced tup. maybe a fluke , bad luck, or something else, time will tell.
-
Spoke to a friend yesterday who has her sheep scanned along with the large commercial flocks near here (Poll Dorsets). She said they are all having a lot of single lambs this year and no idea why - ewes flushed and fed as usual. :-\
-
I'm keeping my fingers crossed....all my GFD ewes (23) held first service. This is the first time ever! the first ewe was tupped on 15th august and the last on the 20th september. Looking forward to the tightest lambing ever :excited:
-
I'm keeping my fingers crossed....all my GFD ewes (23) held first service. This is the first time ever! the first ewe was tupped on 15th august and the last on the 20th september. Looking forward to the tightest lambing ever :excited:
Boy you have got my sympathies - 6 weeks of lambing.... in winter?! :-\
-
The ram went to the vets yesterday. He's fertile, nothing wrong with him! He's come back to a small flock in the hope that'll work
-
Maybe it was just inexperience and numbers then. Fingers crossed he does the job with a few.
-
With all rams of any age spending time watching his working technique is time well spent,just for peace of mind . For some a quick smell then up,a few thrusts then a quick penetration , others take time to get going and can jump several times before penatration :love: :love:
-
I was always told not to put more than 25 ewes with a ram lamb , my new Pedigree Zwartble ram lamb has only 13 girls and the old ram has the rest of the Pedigree ewes and the commercial ones .
i dont mark the ram for the first 8 days then mark with yellow so u get too clear signs of who should lamb first .
I would get another ram quick and put in with your ewes or youll b lambing for ever :(. Try going to a Market you can usually pick up a ram cheap now as people who have used them sell them on , but check hes fertile .
-
I think it depends on the breed - Lleyn or wilts ram lambs can do 40 easily, and Id expect them to tup 80+ as a shearling.
I have heard that some of the heavier terminal breeds can't manage that many though...I plan to put two SufTex rams, one jan born, the other a shearling to 100 ewes this year......
-
We usually put our boys in with about 30 girls give or take a few, and with any ram Terminal sire or not, they need to be fit to do the job. As a rule though we don't put a young shearling tup or lamb tup with shearling ewes we always put him with older experienced ewes.
-
I shall put in 9 rams with 200 ewes this year. I plan it to start lambing June 1st. So around the middle of January. Now this is just on the edge of possible. Most sheep breeds would be tricky to catch that late, but the good ol' Dorset delivers. ;)
I always put in an odd number of rams, partly through superstition, believing that 2 will fight over the job whilst the 3rd one gets in there!
It is good to have a lot of ram power as I think it doesn't cost me much more to feed and segregate 9, as it would 4. But that extra manpower makes a big difference on getting lambing over with in 3 weeks.
-
Except when you buy in your rams and they are costing you £600 + each......
-
True words. I am a commercial sheep producer so it has to pay. :(
If I was paying crazy money he would have to be very special, in the 1st year after isolating the ram for at least 2 months, at breeding time I would put that ram in a separate yard with 8 select ewes. Then keep 4 select sons from that mating, and voila! - a whole new bloodline!
That is in fact what I tend to do. I bought a young ram from the All Canada Classic in 2011, his 4 sons are in the pack for this season. A complete outcross. By colour coding my ewes with different coloured plastic eartags I have 3 distinct easily identified families. That way I can keep rams from my own flock, using rams from different families/bloodlines.
The mantra must be keep a closed flock, Rule One. There are so many bugs and diseases out there. A certain amount of in breeding is no doubt present, but I like to put a stamp on my sheep, my Dorsets are very different from the the Continental Club, American, show sort.
Some are a little close bred but as I have remarked before, you can do this with sheep, always provided you are not too hung up with the Book of Common Prayer. :)
-
Rams would be the only thing that I bough in for two reasons:
Firstly I like to keep a genepool wide, and buying in a ram can bring genetic diversity to a flock and secondly, I dont keep ewes of my chosen terminal sire, so I have to buy in those....
Other than that, the flock is now closed.