The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: ZaktheLad on October 19, 2012, 02:15:36 pm
-
I have 3 well grown ewe lambs that were born mid/end April and wondered what everyones thoughts are on putting them to the ram this weekend? They are Charollais x Texal and will be running with a Hampshire Down ram lamb. It would be so much easier if I could keep them in with the older ewes over the winter as they would have access to shelter from bad weather and I also have the round bale feeder in the barn for them to eat hay adlib. One of the lambs is also totally besotted with her mother and gets extremely stressed if split away from her (yes, I know I am being far too soft!). I have heard a lot of talk about ewe lambs being hard to lamb and I would rather wait a year if this is considered better for them. Thanks!
-
I routinely expose my ewe lambs to the rams, as long as they have grown enough, size and weight is more crucial than age here. Usually 50% will conceive, some years more.
If yours were April lambs I would think it worth a go.
My neighbour has 1000 ewes and is growing his flock, he puts his ewe lambs with the rams and the ones that lamb, again about 50%, he retains in the flock. The ones that don't, we pull out at shearing time and they are kept seperately through the summer and sold in the fall as yearlings for big money, they look really good by then. His are Cluns, mine are Dorsets.
As to Dystocia, don't get them too fat, but feed them well?! and if possible give them some exercise in the 3rd trimester. Cooped up in a little space stuffing themselves because they are bored is not good.
Then, when they are due to lamb, be aware of them, be prepared to assist, but 9 times out of 10 you will find it all goes well. The object is a nice healthy single, for her to learn how to be a Mum on, this is what usually happens. Twins can require a bit more attention getting started.
-
I put my ewe lambs to the tup, mine are primitives and we have very amorous commercial rams near us who are always interested through fences ::)
I put them to a shetland tup rather than risk one of the big boys getting to my lambs :thumbsup:
-
Have a read of these:
http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/research/rd_an_s_f_fr_-_ewelambblueprint_210710.pdf (http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/research/rd_an_s_f_fr_-_ewelambblueprint_210710.pdf)
http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/returns/brp_l_ol_sacyearroundfeedingtheeweforlifelineproduction.pdf (http://www.eblex.org.uk/documents/content/returns/brp_l_ol_sacyearroundfeedingtheeweforlifelineproduction.pdf)
They need to be minimum 60% of mature weight at mating, then 70% four months into gestation. Then 80% at 2nd mating. That means you need to keep them growing in their first winter but not let them get fat, and don't overfeed in the last 4-6weeks of gestation so that the lambs aren't giants. You then need to feed them more post-lambing than you would a mature ewe, as they need to keep growing themselves as well as produce milk for the little'un(s).
So you need to feed 'em, but carefully. :) And avoid using big sire breeds.
-
I don't put my sheep, or goats, to the tup/billy til they're shearlings.
Clearly it can be done, but I'd rather grow mine first and lamb them once grown, than try to do the two together.
-
I never used to at one time jaykay. Nobody did back in the good ol' spacious days!
But I remember reading that that extra crop of lambs over the lifetime made a difference to that ewes total production.
Now, you could argue that letting them grow to full size without stressing them in their 1st year would mean that they last longer, and go on to give you an extra crop of lambs at the other end of their lifetime. The jury is out.
I know that some farmers like to get things in the habit of regular breeding. They consider it a trick that if not repeated can be lost! Just a gut feeling.
But in the case of our friend here, who has 3 sheep, and obviously spends some time just observing them, if it simplifies the handling and housing, I would be inclined to give it a lash.
-
It's true those 3 sheep are going to be very well cared for :) :sheep:
-
Thank you so much for all you replies - all very helphul. I am going to put them in with the ram and keep a careful watch on them around their due date (I will be marking the ram so I will have a better idea of when each ewe will lamb). I will keep you posted in March next year of the outcome! :excited:
-
Are you going to sell the lambs that are produced. If so where will they be sold? They are likely to be smaller lambs and at a market they won't make much money. If you're going to eat them that's fine but it costs as much to slaughter and butcher a small one as it does a big 'un.
I've just sold some lambs as stores, they were'nt very big and I got nothing for them at our local market.
I wouldn't breed small lambs again.
-
interesting topic, we don't put ours to the ram or tup as we call it for the 1st year so they are a better size/weight etc
-
I tup continental cross ewe lambs if they are more than 40kg at tupping time.
Be careful not to overfeed them and wean the lambs at 8 weeks old, to allow the mothers to continue growing next year. If you don't you will end up with small yearlings.
Expect to watch them carefully at lambing, some can frustrate you beyond imagination. ::)
-
Lots of good advice here. Definitely do not put anything under 40kg-45kg to the tup (talking commercial cross, which is what ZaktheLad has.)
I just wanted to add that in our experience, hoggs cannot raise twins. We are further north than some of you, and ZaktheLad's near Bristol, so quite a bit milder than we are, but we have had too many hoggs struggle with two that we've said we simply won't even try it again.
It's all very well thinking you'll get more crops in the ewe's lifetime, but we suspect that unless she just has one lamb and all goes well - good winter, good lambing, good spring and good grass, etc - that she'll be stressed by the early lambing and not last as long as she would had she been allowed to grow on that extra 12 months. Pretty hard to prove, but that's our feeling.
-
I too put ewe lambs to the tup as long as they are over 40kg.- mine are kind of commercial.
I try to maintain a plane of nutrition and I find the best way to do that is beetlic em, so they don't gorge like they might with nuts. A ewe that goes to the ram on her first year is going to be a more productive one over her lifetime (I think its called Ovine early oestrus effect). I wouldn't expect them to raise twins, so the weaker lamb goes after its had colostrum - not many scan as twins anyway. Mature ewes go to the ram at around Nov 5th - ewe lambs go early Dec so they lamb in May and he is only in for one cycle.
-
Only for the experienced shepherd who knows his flock well. Use the wrong tup and lambs may be too big, vet bill .
-
Only for the experienced shepherd who knows his flock well. Use the wrong tup and lambs may be too big, vet bill .
My thoughts exactly, We tupped 10 Lleyn Ewe lambs a few years ago, all where a good weight and in good condition But come lambing time it was a nightmare. Most of them birthed ok with little or no intervention but once lambed didnt have a clue what they had just done and would walk away showing no interest, then came the job of trying to get the Ewe to mother her offspring. I now seperate the retained Ewe lambs (even if it is a pain) and tup the following year.
-
I find where this happens its a "first time mother" thing and is not nescessarily due to the animals age. If the animal is compromised in some way, it can lead to abandoning lambs. I have heard maternal behaviours are learned and if the lamb was abandoned itself, then it is less likley to have picked up the mothering behaviours. For this reason I get rid of anyone who failed to lamb/get the lambs to suck herself and I usually have very few problems.
-
Emotionally I have always wanted to believe the learned behaviour theory, but I have kept on so many pets and abandoned ewe lambs and seen them become cracking mothers themselves, I can't say that my experience backs that theory.
What I do think is that any ewe placed in what feels to her like a very unnatural situation is quite likely to react by leaving the lambs and trying to save herself.
So the very penning and handling that we do with the first time mums of itself can create the conditions for her to not manage her first mothering well!
But unless the ewes are very fit, and the weather is superb, I wouldn't want to risk leaving first timers alone outside to do it, either, even though I do believe that to be best for them. ???
I think any mammal is entitled to find the nibbling questing mouth around the udder very strange and not entirely nice at first. :o Very often with first timers, it's just a bit of constraint and support while lambie gets its first bellyful that's required.
-
I have a friend who makes skirt - like pieces of stout material that she ties firmly over the rear end of ewes that she doesn't want to be bred. They just hang there, normal bathroom functions proceed as per normal, but it stops a ram from doing the business.
Seems to work?!
-
:D chastity belts for sheep :D
-
:D chastity belts for sheep :D
Apparently, our hill sheep have one built-in - but we don't use the natural way any more...
I was told recently that a Swaledale ewe can live for a fortnight on the fat in her tail - which is a second good reason for not tail-docking in this breed.
I just repeated that on another forum and was told that in the Middle East they regard the sheep's tail fat as the natural contraceptive - in the summer she has fat there, and the ram cannot gain access. As the feeding palls, she loses the fat, and eventually her tail is thin enough for the ram to get his way!
-
Emotionally I have always wanted to believe the learned behaviour theory, but I have kept on so many pets and abandoned ewe lambs and seen them become cracking mothers themselves, I can't say that my experience backs that theory.
Of course they can become good mothers - biological theories aren't usually as straightforward as that. The most you could say is that not having learned that behaviour, they are less likely to become good mothers, and as I lamb outside - I cant take chances on less likely. I'm sure there is a whole lot of instinct and hormonal control at play here too. I tend to lamb them in small paddocks with a few hurdle pens dotted around so I can catch them up easily if need be.
There are lots of other reasons I wouldn't breed from an orphan/assisted birth besides that, not least being that you never really know how they would have done on the ewe.
-
:D chastity belts for sheep :D
Apparently, our hill sheep have one built-in - but we don't use the natural way any more...
I was told recently that a Swaledale ewe can live for a fortnight on the fat in her tail - which is a second good reason for not tail-docking in this breed.
I just repeated that on another forum and was told that in the Middle East they regard the sheep's tail fat as the natural contraceptive - in the summer she has fat there, and the ram cannot gain access. As the feeding palls, she loses the fat, and eventually her tail is thin enough for the ram to get his way!
Now thats interesting, especially as I dont dock either...
-
We don't have a choice whether to breed from our ewe lambs this year as a few weeks ago, our ram broke through the fence to the girls before we had separated everyone. So we will just have to look after them well and make sure we are ready to assist the youngsters if needed. Hopefully, if they aren't ready they won't have been covered. The lambs are hid daughters so any of their lambs will go straight to the freezer when they are big enough. We were hoping to get a new ram for them next year so no inbreeding. Bigger fence needed next year.