The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Fruit => Topic started by: Scrumble The Goose on September 18, 2012, 10:26:08 am
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Hi all
I have been researching Apple Orchards & Cider production, part time, for the last year or so, in preparation for planting a new Cider Orchard.
As I will be odering my trees for planting in November I thought I would post the plan to this forum, and see if there is ant feedback, or something I have missed or not considered, before I go ahead & put the spade in the ground. So here goes....
Location: We are approx 1,400 feet ASL in the Welsh Mountains, and the orchard site is West facing, with sun all day, except for the last 20 minutes or so before sunset. We have a shorter growing season due to altitude and spring generally starts 2 weeks later and winter 2 weeks earlier than lower down. The new orchard is not in a frost pocket, although will be exposed to Easterly winds blowing accross it.
Ground: The new orchard will occupy just over an acre of land. The ground is OK to a depth of 18 inches - 2 feet, wherupon it turns to compacted shale & small rocks. Drainage is good. We originally planted potatoes on the land, 5 years or so ago, but it hasn't had anything grown on it since then. I have currently moved our 11 sheep onto the land, to chew off the grass, in preparation for planting later this year.
Plan: To plant 60 - 80 trees, mainly Kingston Black, Crimson King, Major and Harry Masters Jersey, with Bramleys as back up / in fill. I'll space in 15 - 20 foot rows / columns in a traditional manner.
The varieties have been chosen because of mid - late (and mutual) flowering and polination (late frosts up here!) and as a good mixture for cider production.
The root stocks I originally planned upon are MM106 (half standard) although I know think I may be better with MM111 (standards). The MM106 are smaller in height (therefore surviving winds) but the MM111 are full height (not so good in winds) but are better with shallow soils due to a bigger root foot print.
I am interested in all comments....
Thanks
A (AKA Scrumble the Goose)
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I have found these guys really helpful (spect you have come accross them) and intend to buy my stock from them this winter in the vague hope that they will be 'acclimatised'!! You have better (deeper) soil than us but are quite a bit higher (we're only 250m). http://www.welshmountaincider.com/ (http://www.welshmountaincider.com/) I am learning a lot here - I thought fruit trees needed frost? Our little orchard, which was here when we came, is in a frost pocket. Doesnt do very well mind you ;D - lots of the trees are diseased!
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Every year orchards are purchased or planted by people who have no experience in growing apples. For some, an orchard will be a challenge and a source of personal satisfaction and profit. For others, it may be a source of frustration and a bad investment. It’s important to become familiar with the business of producing and selling apples before investing your time, energy, and money. Here are some points you should consider if you are thinking about starting or purchasing an orchard.
Experience
If you have had no previous experience in orchard management, consider working for a successful orchardist for at least a year to learn about the operation. If that’s not possible, be certain that a competent manager or qualified consultant can be employed before you decide to purchase an orchard.
Orchard Size
Apple production requires a lot of labor. A permanent labor supply for spraying, pruning, and general maintenance must be available. Additional seasonal labor will also be needed for harvesting and packing the fruit. Although every farm system is unique, 10 acres could be considered a minimum size for a commercial apple-growing enterprise. A 10-acre operation is large enough to use equipment efficiently and implement a continuous orchard renovation program, yet small enough that one person can take care of most of the work. Larger orchards can make more efficient use of machinery and equipment, but more hired labor, and thus more management skill, will be required.
Management
Apple growing is an enterprise that requires a great deal of knowledge on the part of the orchard owner or manager. Making a profit growing apples in Minnesota (or anywhere else) can be done only with intense management, from variety selection through planting, training, controlling pests, thinning fruit, harvesting, handling, and marketing. If you are considering orcharding as a career or a business opportunity, you must be willing to learn about and keep up-to-date with production practices.
Start-Up Costs
Apple growing requires a very substantial capital investment. Many potentially successful orchards have failed simply due to lack of sufficient operating capital. Be sure you have the capital to purchase and operate an orchard before signing any agreement or sale contract. From the year of planting until the year that crop returns equal or exceed annual costs, the apple grower will make a large investment. Dwarf trees may begin bearing a small crop their third year in the ground; these trees will not reach full productivity until the sixth or seventh year after planting. i hope this helps i would love to do this but with temps of minus 22 i dont stand a chance
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That is great what you are doing - we are planning to do similar up here and I would like to include some cider varieties. I think MM106 probably will be suitable. Like yourself we intend to have a traditional type orchard though I think that if we were more commercially minded and thinking about maximising yield and ease of picking we would have some sort or cordon system. I have planted a number of cordons of local varieties with the garden but within the orchard area intend to go for the bigger trees.
I am not sure about the Bramleys - certainly a great apple but I am not sure your situation is ideal for it. We have a number of old Bramleys in the garden and they do not do very well (we are at about 500ft ASL and in very wet west of scotland, heavy soil). I suppose if you see them growing well locally you will be fine.
Although obviously not local to you Andrew Lear (appletreeman) near Perth is a good source of info and advice for us in Scotland at any rate and I am sure he would be hapy to give you advice over the internet - you can find him by googling.
Apples have been shocking for us this year due to the late frosts I think and no plums whatsoever.
I look forward to hearing about your progress.
Cheers
Simon
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Great plan! :tree:
We planted 80 apple trees in the early spring this year, and plan to do the same this year. We are at sea level on the east coast of Scotland though, so I can't give any advice on varieties. :)
Some lessons we did learn the hard way:
Get some decent secateurs. I bought some Felcos from Amazon - expensive, but given the investment in the trees they are well worth it.
Rinse your secateurs in a 10% bleach solution between trees. I spread canker to a group of trees by not being careful enough about hygiene (using old secateurs before I got my Felcos). :(
Invest in decent grass/weed suppression at the trunk. We're running hens under our trees and my first efforts were destroyed in a matter of days. Now I'm using weed suppressing fabric under chicken wire, and it's holding up well.
I put up some windbreaks - the fabric wasn't hugely expensive and it makes a massive difference. At your altitude it will probably be even more effective, if you can anchor it.
Buy this book: http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/books/the-fruit-tree-handbook/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/books/the-fruit-tree-handbook/) :)
Keep us posted with progress please, I'm intending to write a bit on our site about our orchard, just need to get around to it. ;)
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Also meant to say we paid an experienced apple man to come and walk our ground, look over our chosen varieties and give advice. It was well worth it - we ended up changing site and he introduced us to local and heritage varieties we'd not have known about otherwise.
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Make sure you have adequate rabbit & deer protection, we know to our cost having lost 16 trees from a 24 tree orchard, tres expensive Ouch >:( All trees now have Fort Knox style security round them. We have also had trees snapped by pigs rubbing their bums on them!
Mandy :pig:
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Hi all
Thanks for the replies.
I know about Welsh Mountain Cider, and have spoken to them about tree stock. My ***only*** concern with buying trees from them was lack of certification of disease resistance. For that reason I have also spoken to John Worle amongst others(www.johnworle.co.uk (http://www.johnworle.co.uk)) and although he can supply trees that are certificated as disease resistant, they are more expensive. Question is about risk & cost should an infected tree infect the rest of the Orchard. Jury is out on that one.
Thanks for the comment about the 10% bleach solution. My wife & I went on an Orchard management Course, as part of my research into this, and we picked up lots of useful information. We went to the Victorian Farm Museum in Shropshire. Very useful ! Highly Recommended!
Thanks for tip about the book. Its been suggested elsewhere by two seperate people, so it seems to be a must read. I've ordered that, just.
In our part of North East Wales, just on the marches border, there was once, a thriving fruit & vegtable area, up until around 1880. The local chappie who knows much about this, has visited our site & looked at the proposed orchard location. He suggested different varieties on the basis that they are tradional to the area. Whilst this is probably true, they aren't reasonable croppers, and aren't polination partners, thereby needing Crab apples (or similar) to polinate.
Rabbit protection, ah yes, our little furry friends. We planted an acre or so of mixed woodland last winter (700 + trees of Ash, Rowan, Beech, Silver Birch...Crab Apple, etc etc) and we have had a few skirmishes with the local Bugsy gang. To deter them we use an electric fence (it helps keep the Foxes & Rabbits out, and our flock of Chickens in the woodland) together with tree guards on the stems. It didn't stop all commando style night raids by the rabbits, but did protect alot.
For the orchard, I am planning a similar defence in depth solution, with a tree guard around the stem, and a 1 metre (or so) high chicken wire cage around the stem, supported by three 1m (or so) wooden stakes. The chicken wire will be around 6 inches deep, being partially buried as I plant the tree. The only live stock in the orchard will the occasional sheep, or trespassing cow from the neighbours. Although once I have put up new fences, that shouldn't be much of a risk.
I'm still not decided about the root stock, so I may mix & match and see what happens. After all I could always plant more ......
And if you havn't spotted it, my main interest is Cider production, initially as a keen amateur, then ***maybe*** as a retirement project making a few bob, when I retire in um, 20 years.
We do have a developing Fruit Orchard, with Plums, Cherries, Medlars, Mulberr'ies as well as smaller fruit trees of Gooseberries and Blackcurrents etc. This side of things is carried out by the wife (head gardener aka Capability ) with me as labourer. The Orchard is one of my projects, although my wife supports the project, in the form of production quality control.
Cheers (hic!)
A. (aka Scrumble The Goose)
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Hiya :wave:
May I recommend that you think of increasing your stock - to include bees ;)
If you don't fancy having your own, look to see if there are any local keepers who might want to have them in your orchard for the blossom season - they are amazing wee pollinators & will ensure that you should get big yields - weather permitting :raining: :bee:
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Bees!
Thanks for the reply about Bees. I do plan on having a hive or two around the place, as you quite correctly point out they are just the job for pollination. Due to my work pattern and my wife's fear of Bees, I will probably contact the local Bee keeping Club (?) and ask them about putting a hive or two on the site.
One of the guys I work with keeps Bees, but as my work place (and his home town) are 200 miles away from my home, its not practical for him. However I must say he has been a hive (sorry about the pun, couldn't resist) of information.
Thanks
A (aka Scrumble The Goose)
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I'm a complete novice when it comes to fruit trees but i was thinking of planting a small orchard on an acre of our land. I signed up to our local fruit tree society and went along to one of their lectures the other day. I said i was interested in growing cider and asked what type of apples i;d need. The bloke giving the lecture said it didn't matter; that you could get cider from any apple. Is this right?
Also, we live on pretty heavy clay in Wales (Nr Narbeth). Are there any varieties that do well on this type of land.
Last question! Would it be worth running pigs over the area before planting the trees? I hope this isn;t too off topic. Apologies Scrumble but it sounds like you might have some suggestions/tips. Many thanks
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This all sounds very exciting.
We live on a peat moor and want to plant a small orchard, does anyone have any recommendations for fruit trees, apples, plums, etc., that would thrive on peat? :tree:
Thanks in advance.
Laurieston
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Laurieston, not directly because we're on chalk/clay but I got our fruit trees from Keepers nursery in Maidstone and they were brilliant about recommending the best varieties so it's certainly worth calling them (they deliver nationwide). Most fruit trees prefer slightly acidic soil anyway so that's a good start (don't know how acidic peat bogs are though - do you know what the pH of your soil is?).
And you have to look at blueberries if you haven't already - I'm very jealous of anybody who can grow them! You could plant them between the trees - I believe it was traditional to have soft fruit bushes amongst the trees.
H
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Hello all
Its been a while since I last visited this site, so I'll let you all know how things have gone with the Orchard.
I had a major change of plan after visiting a few suppliers and growers. I ahve now planted some 70 trees , the majority (around 60) are in a one acre field that gets sunlight from dawn until dusk and is south facing, although exposed. The root stock is M111 or M25 (vigorous). I managed to plant a good spread of flowering groups and varierities so I should have a good chance of a reasonable harvest in years to come.
For those interested, the trees are in the main 2 - 3 year olds, with one or two maidens in as well. I've also planted a few Pear trees for good measure. I planted the rees as bare root stock, alongside half a dozen potted trees and next to a dozen or so establihed trees (a year back).
Here's a list of varieties (type in brackets) I've planted this year, all M111 / M25 root stock that should be fine to grow & yield a good group at altitude & exposed conditions...but see later...:
Bittersweets
5 x Paington Marigold (Medium BS)
5 x Ball’s Bittersweet (BS)
5 x Captain Broad (BS)
5 x Jenkins 3 (BS)
5 x Killboy (BS)
2 x Improved Redstreak (BS)
Sweets
5 x Jonny Andrews (Cider Sweet)
5 x Town Farm 59 (Sweet)
2 x Wyken Pippin (Dessert/Sweet)
2 x Viv’s Red (Dessert)
2x Bell Apple (Sweet/Mild Bittersweet)
1 x Wheeler’s Russet (Dessert)
Sharps
5 x Ponsford (Cider Sharp/Cooker)
5 x Coleman’s Seedling (Sharp)
3 x Chaxhill Red (Sharp)
3 x Frederick (Cider Sharp)
My next job is to re-place the existing fence around the main orchard, plant a new hedge, and research changing our 6 sheep flock from Llyn's to Shropshire's...apparently Shropshires don't eat trees...useful.
So off to research the sheep..!
PM me if you want any help !
Cheers
A (aka Scrumble the Goose)
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While I think on...the Trre stock came from Bill & Chava at Welsh Mountain Cider....well worth a visit !
A
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have a look and see if you can find any old text or maps showing the location of any old orchards in the area
the local knowledge concerning which varieties of apple and pears grow well in your area may now be lost but some of the old trees may have survived at the side of the road, edge of fields etc.
it is unlikely that people 100-200 years ago would have grafted just any old scion material, they would have selected scions from trees for the following criteria, abundance, consistency and most important of all, the time of year the fruit would be ready.
crawford pears are the earliest in scotland, citron des carmes pears did not ripen quickly enough in northern climes and wouldnt stay on the branches long enough to ripen. Black auchen pears were the latest pear to be ready, mid dec,
the above are eating pears, for perry pears, speak with the gloucester orchard group for advice. indeed, speaking with other local orchard groups, commercial growers or even local enthusiasts would be worth the effort
consider planting the edge of your orchard with as many of these old varieties as possible, and use them as a testing ground to find out which types grow best in your area and ground.
for shallow soil, consider placing a slab in the bottom of the planting hole to help turn the roots sideways. old grave stones were popular in times gone by.
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Don't bank on the Shropshires not eating your apple trees. You'll still need to protect your trees.
I've planted around 200 cider trees since 2008 in three lots.
My first two plantings were maidens on 106 and 111 and were obtained from Frank Mathews's of Tenbury. They were really good well grown trees and cost me £4.95p each. To get that price I needed to buy the seperate varieties in lots of 25.
This year I planted another 56 trees but this time I had them from Adams Apples and paid £7.00 each for them. With this producer I had a much wider choice and was able to mix and match. If I'm honest these trees were no where near as forward as the previous trees that I'd planted but great oakd from acorns grow and we'll have to wait and see how they go. I'm sure that they'll be OK.
With the root stock that I've planted you can grow in excess of 200 trees to the acres.
If you need any help or advice with cider making, I'd be happy to help you if I can. This will be my second year of making cider commercially.
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for shallow top soil, consider laying a slab in the ground underneath the rootstock, it will turn the roots sideways.
pigs will tear up the ground, so unless you plan to re-level the terrain, think twice, flatter ground will help with maintainance and any potential drainage you need.
consider a chicken coop on wheels, periodically move it along a line of trees. thety will eat insects, mice, voles and also clear the grass from around the tree. this can act as a barrier to water.
10000 trees is a commercial orchard, 100 is more of a hobby, it may be more work collecting from full standards but doable. also, full standards can be grown for timber and fire wood.
small farmers grew fruit in the past, but due to the unreliable nature of the crop, (re-last year and probably this year) they planted below the trees another crop.
if you look towards the end of this article
http://denmylne.wordpress.com/about/ (http://denmylne.wordpress.com/about/)
you can see roys map of the carse of gowrie 1748-54), which shows the fields edged with trees, not just fruit trees but nut trees and other timber trees, The point here is a consideration about just how commercial you want your orchard tobe? how big?. It has been pointed out that very large orchards are a considerable amount of work and due to the size of the trees, even half standards, growing in poly tunnels is not really an option and modern agriculture relies on such items to protect and ensure crops. After saying this, some of the new apple trees from brogdale, very resistent to desease, small, almost nothing more than a stick in the ground, very fruitful, even after only 3-4 years and could possibly be grown in a poly tunnel and therefore protected from nature. Protection from rabbit and voles in the form of fencing is a must and can be expensive and high maintainance, although, pears and plums seem less appealing to rabbits than apples. If you consider your fruit trees as a source of firewood and timber which sometimes do give crops of fruit, then 100 standards around a field will in 10-15 years give enough firewood each year for a 3 bed house. prune them straight and true for the 1st 5 years then they should look after themselves. 100 fruit trees, even on a mediocre year will still give vast quantities of fruit, for a cottage industry such as jam or cidre making. If you only plant around the margins of your land, the land can then be used for some other crop/endevour. Selection of fruit types is important for your location and pollination reasons
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also, consider learning to graft, this will ensure a very cheap source of replacenent trees
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Very interesting but one thing occurs to me. If you have shallow soil, wont the roots of your trees go side ways anyway? When you say a slab, what do you mean exactly ? A slab as in a paving type slab?
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yes, a paving slab will do, in times gone by, they used old grave stones
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"If you have shallow soil, wont the roots of your trees go side ways anyway"
no, pear tree roots will grow down into the poorer soil, diverting the roots into the better quality top soil will improve the trees but, as always, there is a trade off, the trees are more suseptible to being blown over :)
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Hi all
I thought I'd post an update and pass on what I have learned over the last 6 months or so.
I planted a total of 95 Apple & Pear Trees, the majority being Apple (some 80 trees). All full vigourous root stock. The majority of the trees where planted within 3 days of them coming out of the ground, just before Christmas 2012. Each tree was planted using an I cut. I used a 1 meter length of Tubex tree guard and supported this with a wooden stake.
Planting the 80 odd trees took around a day in total.
With the exception of two trees, all of them have budded, most have leaves, some have blossom. I have now changed the Tubex tree guarde for MDPE mesh, again supported by the wooden post. The trees them selves are not supported, so making sure they don't rub around anything sharp (so damaging the stems) is a concern, but so far no problems.
The MDPE mesh I used is 1.2m (4'6" foot or so) wide and comes in a 50m ( 75 foot or so) roll. Cutting it into 75cm lengths works out about right when rolled to form a tube. I stapled the mesh to the wooden posts with my staple gun. Use a staple every 15cm (6 inches). Quick and seems to work OK.
Of the two trees that are showing no signs of life, one suffered a Rabbit attack, the other is just dead.
I haven't cleared the ground around the trees, and there's grass growing. However, we have an old Ash tree which has to come down, and apart from most of the wood being used for the wood burner, the brash is going to be shredded into mulch, and I'll use that around the base of each of the trees. I tried a similar thing last year, as an experiment, by using shredded pallets. There's a firm who advertise on eBay, who sell 1 ton sacks of shredded pallets. I used what was left over from a poly tunnel path jobbie, around the base of an old Apple tree. It works ok-ish, and keeps most of the weeds & grass down. I think it will be OK for a few years, by which time the roots will have established themselves. (In the end we had around 4 Ton's of the stuff from the firm in Ellesmere Port. Makes graet path ways for the poly tunnel and such like).
The remaing trees (Apple, Pears and so on) all had those plastic spiral tree guards wrapped around them, as Rabbit protection. In main this has worked, but it became apparent that a careful check once a week is in order, as the weather can dislodge the guards, and those pesky rabbits are in like a shot. As part of my on going scheme, I've now replaced the spiral tree guards with the MDPE Mesh, and this seems to be working OK.
The trees with plastic spiral tree guards suffered significant Rabbit damage during the snow the other month. As the snow was so deep, un guarded parts of the trees where exposed, and Bugsy & his mates just trotted along and help themselves to the bark. I suppose they where hungry.
The spiral tree guards at 300mm (12 inches) just didn't give enough protection. Luckily the trees that did get attacked all seem to have survived, allbeit with bark damage. I've applied that paint / sealent to the damaged areas, and hopefully the trees will be OK. So far so good.
Clearly the rabbits took the opportunity of using the trees as a fast food take away, and as part of my defences, I put Hay & Rabbit food out as a distraction.Well, why not engage the enemy ? I'm not sure this did any good, but it sure made me feel as though I was doing something!
I have 6 or so spare trees, which I have planted in a holding or nursery patch. Spares, if you will.
All in all things are going OK. The next steps on the scheme involve fence improvements & hedge planting around around the Orchard. I was going to put the hedges in earlier this year, but what with the snow and all that never got around to it. I'll put the second fence in, and plant the hedge in the Autumn / Winter.
I'm investigating Bees, and am trying to contact someone locally who might like to put a Hive in the Orchard, so we'll see how that goes.
The trees I got from Bill & Chava at Welsh Mountain Cider, and I am very pleased. They are highly reccommended.
Cheers
A aka Scrumble the Goose
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thank you for the update, a very interesting thread! I'd be very interested to hear how you go about your hedge. :tree:
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Sounds good. I've planted about half as many trees as you (spread over a lot more fruit too - lots of cherries and pears too). I've used wire chicken mesh, stapled as you describe to a wooden stake but I've staked my trees too - why did you decide not to stake them? Is it not windy there? Mine are all doing great - I think (the persimmon is yet to do much but it probably will be later) - but I'm worried about the amount of watering I'll have to do through dry spells.
H
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Hi
Well the main orchard's purpose is cider & juice production. That's the 95 or so trees in the main orchard. We have more fruit trees, comprising around 5 Pear trees (for Perry) 2 or 3 eating Pears, 5 or 6 cooking apples, then plums, medlars, mulberry, blue berries and so on. Lots of fruit.
The main orchard is in a field, with a gentle slope running down from West to East. The filed gets sun from dawn, right through the day until about 2 or 3 minutes before sunset. It also gets the sun almost all of the year. The ground is well drained, although shallow (about 18inches of top soil before getting to compacted shale). The site is exposed, and with the prevailing wind coming from the west. There is an ancient hedge to the west, which acts as a wind break, which is good.
Whilst most people choose to stake the trees, I simply used the Tubex to support the trees. Since moving to the HDPE guards, there is no tree support at they are free to move around, albeit within the guard. I have chosen to go this route as I have been advised by a number of people (quite independently) that this will promote strong root growth. Given the site, and the root stock being full vigour, I thought this a good way to go.
Cheers
A (aka Scrumble the Goose)
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Is there a good place to order hundreds of fruit trees at a reduced rate?
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I was always advised to tie trees to a stake low down... prevents root rock but leaves the tree needing to support itself against the elements for a strong trunk.I know of no cheap source of bulk trees of a good range of varieties. the only chep fruit trees are the early year offerings from lidl, b&M or the supermarkets although you could likely negotiate with any of the bigger growers when talking hundreds to get a discount.Real entrepreneurs might even consider growing their own rootstocks and garfting but you add 3yrs+ to any project and have all the learning disasters to cope with.
I bought 30 different varieties from Adam's Apples but I've added 20 or so extras from the cheap sources - cherries, plums and pears mostly since th apple varieties are only ever cox (which is nice but one tree is enough), discovery (not the best apple) and golden delicious (which is anything but)
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Parkers wholesale provide decent trees for not much more than lidl, etc. https://www.dutchbulbs.co.uk/c-ga/fruit-trees/ (https://www.dutchbulbs.co.uk/c-ga/fruit-trees/)
William
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on trees so its decent from an amateur's point of view.
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I did a day course a few months ago, and the new things I picked up were:
* Staking the tree is to keep the roots solid, not the tree itself. So tie it securely and low down.
* New trees have to be watered in their first and second years if the weather is dry.
* Whilst the most common rootstock is MM106, this is actually (in the opinion of the course leader) too big for most orchards. Instead, most of us should be planting smaller rootstocks like M9 and M27, and putting more trees in, closer together. This will give smaller, more manageable trees, and more productivity per unit area.
* Trees grow really well against a wall. (Actually we've seen that ourselves. Our geese munched a load of newly planted apple trees, and I planted a couple of the mauled but not dead ones against our hayshed wall just to see if they would recover. They've now overtaken the ones that are still in the orchard and didn't get munched).
* Branches pointing upwards promote growth. Horizontal branches promote fruit. As a result, we tied lots of branches down to a horizontal angle last winter, using baler twine. I'll let you know in a couple of years whether it worked!
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Is there a good place to order hundreds of fruit trees at a reduced rate?
We bought from Adam's Apples when we planted our orchard. 33% off when buying 25+ trees, start at £8 for a maiden whip (so just over a fiver each if buying lots):
http://www.talatonplants.co.uk/ (http://www.talatonplants.co.uk/)
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We bought from Adam's Apples too. It was worth it just for them answering the phone with "Adam's Apples, Adam Speaking"! ;D
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Parkers wholesale provide decent trees for not much more than lidl, etc. https://www.dutchbulbs.co.uk/c-ga/fruit-trees/ (https://www.dutchbulbs.co.uk/c-ga/fruit-trees/)
William
Disclaimer: I'm not an expert on trees so its decent from an amateur's point of view.
Wel done there's soem nice apples there. I can recommend Red Devil, Sunset, Laxton superb, The russet and Blenheim, James Grieve and Worcester Pearman are well respected old varieties. I used to have a red devil and miss it. It's so red that the colour goes into the flesh and nicely juicy. In fact the only apple i wouldn't have out of that lot is the golden delicious.
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I bought root stocks 106 and grafted. 10 were about £35.
As a side, I also have getting on for 200 seedlings grafting practice, field boundaries and because id like to 'discover' a new Apple. And if they just make crabs I'll graft then over in years to come. The actual seedlings I've seen aren't bigger than m25 so I hope can be encouraged to have most branches around 6'