The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: fairhaven on September 17, 2012, 09:25:21 am
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Hi
Now you've all got me through the farrowing bit, I need advice on ear tags... Got to tag some weaners that we've sold - Are the following tags ok with Large Blacks or are they likely to pull them out? (The rest of the piglets I was just going to tag the day before they go off)
:thinking: Or would using the ear tattoo thing be better?
Oh - and after the disaster last week separating the sows from the weaners, we tried again over the weekend & all went well & all seem happy at the moment :relief:
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hi
they look like cattle flags you either want button (round) tags for pigs or the metal ones we use daltons they will soon put you right and inc a free applicator if its your first order.
are they registered pigs your tagging if so they should be notched too.
btw we use button tags for the show / breeding pigs and metal for meat pigs dont ask why i cant remember
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Hi Fhf :wave:
Glad to here things are settling down for you - it can just be so stressful sometimes when we are "learning as we go" - it'll be easier next time :thumbsup:
As Cf says - if your weaners are going for breeding/show then they should be notched.
I only use the button tags on my KKs - personally the metal ones make me shudder (but that's just me), so I wouldn't use them, but they'd probably be ok for meat weaners.
If you go for plastic buttons, try Fearings - lovely choice of colours & 1st order used to include free taggers - they are brilliant if you are a little nervous, as it has a quick-release spring system - so the taggers don't get stuck in the ear if the pig decides to "do a bunk".
If you tag, have a good feel of the ear to check where the 2 main veins are (you need to avoid them!) & just go for it - calm & quick - the pigs hardly even flinch, especially if you do it while heads are down eating ;)
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Agree they are cattle tags and will get ripped out, plastic tags for pigs need to be flat round button tags and need your herd no and the pigs numberon them.
If they're birth notified as pedigree and being sold for breeding then you should mark them as required by breed.
If selling weaners for meat in theory they can be sold using a paint mark as under one year old and the person sending them to the butchers tags them with their own tags.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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They are advertised as pig tags on their site - Crappy picture - the cattle tags on their site have a longer bottom bit, But we are heading towards the tattoo instead, More money initially to buy but not having to worry about replacement tags when they rip them out... :thinking: Thanks for the tip about the veins though, at least with the tattoo we can do them now while the veins are fairly visible, rather than waiting till the last minute in case they rip them out in the meantime.
They are all going for meat. :excited:
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Ditto Fowgill, if they are under a year old, and you're only tagging for legal reasons, then don't tag them, just use a temporary mark.
If you tag, the buyer only has to tag again before slaughter, and this just causes confusion in the system.
If you're tagging for pedigree purposes, then you'd need to use "tattoo thing", unless you get permission from the BPA, and you really don't want to go the tagging route as it's double tagging and a real pain if they lose one, and the pigs can't be shown.
We use flag tags on our non-pedigree adult pigs for management purposes, and they don't tend to lose them.
If you're thinking of tattooing for the ones you're going to take to the abattoir, then you'd better check first, many abattoirs don't like tattoos as they're impossible to read most of the time. They like slapmarkers or tags.
If you don't plan to sell pedigree pigs, then temporary mark the ones you sell, and slapmark the ones for the abattoir, or use metal tags, or use plastic button tags, but check with your abattoir what their requirements are first before shelling out for kit.
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sorry to be the one to correct you oaklands black eared pigs are notched not tattoed
but your post highlights a problem all our pigs have tags even the ones sold for meat
pedigree pigs must be individually identified if that pig goes through 6 different owners it has to have 7 different tags as removal of a tag is an offence
the cattle and sheep don't get retaged on a change of ownership so what idiot thought this idea up for pigs :farmer:
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We put temporary marks on ours sold for meat, but then they go at eight weeks, although we would if asked metal tag for owners who don't have the stomach to tag, the weaners are then tagged with their herd number etc.
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sorry to be the one to correct you oaklands black eared pigs are notched not tattoed
Robert - you are of course correct - having mentioned tatoo equipment I didn't notice that FHF was talking about large blacks rather than breeds that are tattooed.
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??? This is a nightmare... ok, First things first -
1 - the 10wk old weaners (Large Black - Not registered) that have been sold for someone else to fatten for the freezer, don't need tagging by us, as they will only have to be tagged again by the buyer before they can send them to their abattoir? I only need a temporary mark on them for sale as meat pigs?
Secondly - 2 - Later on, when we send our own pigs off, our abattoir is happy with either slapmark or ear tags... Can I just slap them before they go? Do I really need to tag them at all?
I don't mean to be thick :dunce: :D I will get it in the end :fc: ;D
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what you have written is correct the end has happened you are not thick
temp mark is usually a paint spray mark for animals :farmer:
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:excited: Thank you :D
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FHF,
Never consider yourself thick when it comes to rules & regulations - all of us started where you are now - basically saying "What???? Why??? Who dreamt this rubbish up????" :)
As Robert says you have got it right !
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:idea: I suppose that when I have finally got the hang of how things work, somebody sitting in an office, in a nice clean suit & shiny shoes will decide to bring in another rule or two, or change things just for something to do??
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Don't worry fairhaven, when I moved to scotland, rules up here are different from those southerners and I still can't get my head around some of them, luckily I have happy hippo to call on when I need help. :wave: :thumbsup:
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Don't worry fairhaven, when I moved to scotland, rules up here are different from those southerners and I still can't get my head around some of them, luckily I have happy hippo to call on when I need help. :wave: :thumbsup:
Think you have a typo error Linda :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Glad someone else noticed! :roflanim: was just chuckling about that myself :roflanim: I have an image of a beaming hippo stuck in my head now :roflanim:
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:roflanim: :roflanim: sorry karen, not saying you're a hippo :-[
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Found this topic interesting.
When we have had bought weaners in they have had the button tags in , our abattoir insists on the metal tags with our number on so they end up with 2 tags in and we have had quite a few torn ears :(
So in theory could we just get the breeders to temporary mark them rather than button tag them then we can tag with metal tags for them to go for slaughter ?
Ohh and its all in England
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Yes
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Don't worry fairhaven, when I moved to scotland, rules up here are different from those southerners and I still can't get my head around some of them, luckily I have happy hippo to call on when I need help. :wave: :thumbsup:
Think you have a typo error Linda :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
I thought we had another new member for a minute :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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I am guessing the temporary marking only applies for weaners ?
If I was to buy an adult pig does would it have to have its tag in before it came to me or could it be slap marked and I can put one of my tags in here ?
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yes it now only applies to weaners
slap marking is for identification of the pig once dead and on the hook the slap mark would only be visible on white pigs when alive
adult pigs or pigs over a certain age have to be individually identified by notch tag or tattooing the ear and all have to be easily read :farmer:
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well it applies up to 12 months
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not that long ago all pigs moved on a temp paint mark it was only a few breeders that did identify positively pigs from there herd
since it was pigs that caused the close scrutiny of animal id i wonder why piglets have not yet been brought under the same rules as lambs and calves :farmer:
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yes its strange isn't it robert. They id to keep a trace and yet look at all the piglets that go out, they are far easier to hide as it were, just look at the micro piglets
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Hi all :wave:
Sorry to jump on this post with a question but im trying to work out the whole pedigree registration and marking business. ??? If a registered pig , ie an OSB, has a tattoo in its ear for ID, does it need to be notched as well as?
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large blacks Hampshire and saddelbacks duroc berkshire and OSB all get notched if there breeder is happy with notching the saddelback has a different system to the other breeds
all others that come under the bpa are tattooed or double tagged and you have to state on the registered papers which method single tag only if tattooed and notched males are the first tin the litter and the tags are on the right hand ear lookink from bum to head females are on the left ear with a tag :farmer:
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OSB's come under notching too
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chickenfeed is correct and duroc and berkshire as well will amend the post :farmer:
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chickenfeed is correct and duroc and berkshire as well will amend the post :farmer:
i am a woman robert i am always right :innocent:
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maybe that is why i like you we are both correct :relief: :roflanim: :farmer:
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Hmmmm, I'm getting very confused now. My pedigree registered OSB only has an ear tattoo, so are you saying she should be notched as well or will it be her piglets, if we breed from her? My BPA notes say that registered pigs must be identified with ear tattoo, ear notches OR double tags. It also says that it is recommended to have 2 forms of ID recorded on their database. It does not say that it is compulsory. I have only joined BPA as a pig keeper and not a pig breeder so maybe I'm missing some info?
Actually haven't really found the BPA all that informative, perhaps all will become crystal clear eventually. Arrrrggggg! ::) :o
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maybe that is why i like you we are both correct :relief: :roflanim: :farmer:
we could start a rumour here robert :roflanim:
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Hmmmm, I'm getting very confused now. My pedigree registered OSB only has an ear tattoo, so are you saying she should be notched as well or will it be her piglets, if we breed from her? My BPA notes say that registered pigs must be identified with ear tattoo, ear notches OR double tags. It also says that it is recommended to have 2 forms of ID recorded on their database. It does not say that it is compulsory. I have only joined BPA as a pig keeper and not a pig breeder so maybe I'm missing some info?
Actually haven't really found the BPA all that informative, perhaps all will become crystal clear eventually. Arrrrggggg! ::) :o
The BPA is not very clear on much nowadays!
Ear notching is the approved mechanism - see the club's site on this
http://www.oxfordsandypigs.co.uk/breed-identification/ (http://www.oxfordsandypigs.co.uk/breed-identification/)
Tattooing is not used on OSB's, but is on say Gloucester Old Spots.
Now we need to be clear between tatooing for legal reasons and tattooing for breed reasons. It may be the tatoo on your pig is the breeders herd mark which would give it legal identity. Is it notched as well - and what does the BPA paperwork you should have got with it say?
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maybe that is why i like you we are both correct :relief: :roflanim: :farmer:
we could start a rumour here robert :roflanim:
no need to start rumors we like each other in public :hug:
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Hi, sorry to butt in on the love in chickenfeed and Robert! ;)
Oaklands, the BPA paperwork says Ear No: NWF/18 - tag, 2nd ID: blank space. No ear notches on my gilt. Is this OK?
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i would say the original breeder has done it wrong from what you describe :farmer:
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From the 1st January 2011 the rules changed and notching became the BPA requirement for OSB pedigree pigs. Any pig born prior to this date may have been tattooed or notched by the breeder. An ear tag is also required to match up with the ear notching and will show the Breeders HDL, the individual ID number of the Pig and on the underside, the Breeders Herd Number.
You do not need to tattoo and ear notch. The BPA does have provision for double tagged pigs but this is by agreement with them. Double tagged pigs cannot be shown at BPA Shows in OSB Breed classes. Hope that helps.
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Barnsnap,
Great to have an experienced OSB breeder and show-er join TAS !
Should have remembered that OSB's changed a couple of years ago.
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I have asked for double tagged pigs to be considered by the BPA show committee as i think that it is discrimination against breeders who tag not to be able to show their pigs, they pay their subscriptions as much as any other breeder and therefore should be entitiled to take part in BPA events.
If necessary i will take this to the equal opportunities commision as i as a breeder that tags am not getting an equal opportunity to show my pigs in BPA events for which i pay for thro my subs. >:(
Mandy :pig:
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I have asked for double tagged pigs to be considered by the BPA show committee as i think that it is discrimination against breeders who tag not to be able to show their pigs, they pay their subscriptions as much as any other breeder and therefore should be entitiled to take part in BPA events.
If necessary i will take this to the equal opportunities commision as i as a breeder that tags am not getting an equal opportunity to show my pigs in BPA events for which i pay for thro my subs. >:(
Mandy :pig:
imo tattooing is more permanent tags can get removed & replaced a tattoo is there forever (unless you cut the ears off) so for show pigs less chance to cheat i would rather tattoo than tag anyday.
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the double tagging issue came up for discussion at the BPA AGM last year it is supposed to be getting considered by the relevant committee but this is election year so in all probability nothing will be progressed until the elections are finished
from being present last year at the AGM there appears to be an old guard that it has worked this way for years why change the vibes that i got was that double tagging could be abused by breeders and show people to there advantage it may surprise many just what goes on in pig showing to get that coveted Rosette :farmer:
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imo tattooing is more permanent tags can get removed & replaced a tattoo is there forever (unless you cut the ears off) so for show pigs less chance to cheat i would rather tattoo than tag anyday.
Tattos permanent, don't think so........ i have several bought in GOS all of whom are allegedly tattooed, i cannot read any of the tattoos and have had them tagged even though as a small herd i know them all individually, as least if the powers that be come they are identifiable now by their tags. And nothing would surprise me about what goes on in the pig showing world its the same as in anything that involves winning & prizes!
Mandy :pig:
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the double tagging issue came up for discussion at the BPA AGM last year it is supposed to be getting considered by the relevant committee but this is election year so in all probability nothing will be progressed until the elections are finished
from being present last year at the AGM there appears to be an old guard that it has worked this way for years why change the vibes that i got was that double tagging could be abused by breeders and show people to there advantage it may surprise many just what goes on in pig showing to get that coveted Rosette :farmer:
Robert - probably the same as what goes on with certain "cliques" in the dog world :o
Just noticed you've posted too Chickenfeed - :thumbsup:
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imo tattooing is more permanent tags can get removed & replaced a tattoo is there forever (unless you cut the ears off) so for show pigs less chance to cheat i would rather tattoo than tag anyday.
Tattos permanent, don't think so........ i have several bought in GOS all of whom are allegedly tattooed, i cannot read any of the tattoos and have had them tagged even though as a small herd i know them all individually, as least if the powers that be come they are identifiable now by their tags. And nothing would surprise me about what goes on in the pig showing world its the same as in anything that involves winning & prizes!
Mandy :pig:
tattoos are permanent mum has done her goats for over 40 yrs without any probs some times with pigs you need a torch to shine through the ears to see the mark.
i stand by my statement would rather use tattoo than tags anyday
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we have a lop that is tattooed clear as anything is her number the tag well that is lost but the ear is not ripped tattoo ink is not as permanent as it used to be but bill Howe's gets excellent results notching causes blood loss but only on the day of doing it then they are alright
tattooing can cause blood loss on a small scale but notching and tattooing causes them to squeal like mad and it may be this aspect more than any other why people want to tag tags can be removed
many years ago we had jerseys and we bred this particularly showy one her only fault was she would milk for 6 weeks then dry up she was sold through the mart to somebody that was into showing jerseys the next week in the Scottish farmer there she was winning at east kilbride show and proclaiming it was his breeding she was tattooed with our herd number was her number checked and how often at shows are the numbers checked as i said before it comes down to the credibility of the breeder plain and simple :farmer:
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quality of the ink has alot to do with it. when we tattoo we do it like this....using the tattooer we make the mark then apply the ink by rubbing it in the mark that way we make sure all the tattoo is well inked.
the other reason for using this method is if the pig moves you have not made a miss mark as you would have if the tattoo marker had been inked so all you have to do is wait a couple of days for it to heal over and start again.
we did 13 pigs sunday they dont all bleed in fact we only had 3 bleeders the squeals are no more than they would if you picked one up and the paste we use is antiseptic so it stops germs the marks are as clear as a bell in fact non of ours are unreadable we have had ours checked at 2 shows this year.
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and how often at shows are the numbers checked as i said before it comes down to the credibility of the breeder plain and simple :farmer:
Only been to one show in 4yrs and had ear numbers checked and that was at Newark & Notts two yrs ago and only because MB was there himself.
Credibilty of the breeder is up to that breeder, one point in case been timing of birth notes how many pigs are in the ring with the actual correct birth date on their paperwork? We've all heard the story of the BPA speaking to a breeder mid jan and her saying sorry can't stop to chat off to wean my januaries!!
mandy :pig:
ps I hate all disfigurement of animals tagging, notching & tattooing, for me tagging is the least barbaric.
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OK, so I have this pedigree registered OSB gilt, only ear tattooed, not notched, no tags. I'd like to breed the occasional litter and want to keep all my options open, so would like to register any piglets that meet the standard. I dont plan on going to any shows. So.....What do I need to do next? I don't much fancy ear notching an 8 month old pig! Yikes! Do I have to ask BPA for permission to double tag? Or is it the OSB society?
Feel like I'm swirling around in treacle over this ??? :'(
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Best advice BEB is to go to BPA website look up the breed rep for OSB's and give them a call then you have the definitive answer.
HTH
mandy :pig:
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the job is as hard as you want to make it
has the pig been transferred to your name are you a fully paid up member of the BPA it is in your interest and the sows to birth note all piglets that keeps her records up to date you only register the good ones as not all are shinning examples of the breed and if you do have a full litter or perfects put the lottery on the BPA are the one and only one to register with the osb society are just a group of people promoting there breed
Mandy always the question mark is over the January's our January's were i believe down marked at yorkshire just because we can obtain a very good growth on them and from what we have been told we have raised a few eyebrows in the movers and shakers in the pig world this year :farmer:
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I am listed as the owner on BPA website and my form. Not a fully paid member, just a pig keeper. It was the BPA who told me only to become a full member when I started breeding. Yep have contacted OSB rep. Will let you know outcome when I hear back.
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Mandy always the question mark is over the January's our January's were i believe down marked at yorkshire just because we can obtain a very good growth on them and from what we have been told we have raised a few eyebrows in the movers and shakers in the pig world this year :farmer:
Some of them in the pig world need a good moving and shaking ::) glad you're at the forefront!
yes had my march pig's growth questioned a couple of times, but its just we've had good grass growth this year GOS are prolific grazers given half the chance, mine are out digging too putting on muscle and they're well fed good quality pig nuts.
mandy :pig:
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i did make my feelings known to a few selected breeders at yorkshire and pointed out the discrepancy's but that is what you are up against pigs can have good days and bad days and a different show a different judge the world is your oyster
not that i am complaining if i was you would have read about it in the yorkshire post
to be a virtual unknown from Scotland and go to the yorkshire and win that is an achievement in its self
anyway i can see the argument from both sides as regards double tagging and there is no easy solution to placate both sides somebody did say why not have the tags issued by the bpa but that is open to even more abuse by the end user :farmer:
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:rant: bl**dy defra :rant:
I asked their advice on tagging a few weeks ago & have just now got this response:
Thank you for your email about identification of pigs.
Since April 2007 the law states that no pig may move from a holding unless it has an eartag/tattoo with the herdmark of the holding from which it is being moved.
You can find further information about pig identification at the following link, which includes information on pre-notification of moving pigs off your holding:
http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1082261902&type=RESOURCES (http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?itemId=1082261902&type=RESOURCES)
I would suggest you contact your local Animal Health branch for assistance in practical matters. You can find their contact details using the postcode search at the following link:
http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/about/contact-us/postcode.asp (http://animalhealth.defra.gov.uk/about/contact-us/postcode.asp)
Yours sincerely,
Corinne Brooke
Customer Contact Unit Defra
Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)
??? ??? ???
This is ridiculous - 2 people are coming to pick up weaners this weekend, I have no tagger, no tattoo thingy & no cash!! When I clicked on the link they sent me, it say's that if they are under a year old & going to another holding I can do it on a temp. mark... :rant:
Suggestions please!! Do I still do the temp. mark (Bearing in mind I can't get a tagger or anything else until I have the cash for the weaners, I can't do much anyway :D)
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FHF,
You may move a pig on a temporary mark under The Pigs Records Identification and Movement Order 2011 - there are three - one for each country England, Wales and Scotland, but they all say the same.
Article 7 states
Identification of pigs moved off a holding
7. (1) No person may move a pig off a holding unless it has
(a)an ear tag with the letters UK followed by the herdmark of the holding from which it is being moved; or
(b)a tattoo showing that herdmark (with or without the letters UK);
applied in accordance with article 6.
However Article 8 states
8.(1) Article 7 does not apply in relation to a pig less than one year old provided that it is identified with a temporary mark that
(a)either by itself or by reference to a document accompanying the pig during the movement enables the holding from which the pig was last moved to be identified; and
(b)lasts until the pig reaches its destination.
This exeption does not apply to pigs going to an abattoir.
So you are 100% allowed to move the weaners on a temporary mark - this is usually an animal spray marker and you put a mark such as "blue cross on back" or "red spot on shoulder" or "yellow stripe down back" on the animal, and put that sort of wording on the form.
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Thank you - this whole tagging & ID thing is a nightmare, made so much worse by defra giving contradictory information. ::) Before we started set up some friends of ours had told us "The animals are fairly easy to get the hang of - It's defra that takes some working out" - Now I know just what they meant :D
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Farhaven
The trouble is that a lot of the people that work in DEFRA info centres and the new AML centre are not from agricultural backgrounds, they could be entering data about tins of beans or toilet rolls for all they know or care and if you ask questions will generally spout from the manual that they have in front of them, they know nothing of the practicalities of livestock keeping and as ever DEFRA in their wisdom have decided that with farming regs & rules one size fits all set ups! NOT :rant:
Your best advice for tagging info is your BPA breed rep but try to remember these reps are volunteers who give their time freely so they may not answer your e-mails asap, best to ring if you can at a conveneient hour.
Move your weaners on a coloured mark, thats what i do when they're going to somebody to rear for meat and on the AML where it says individually identified tick the yes box and in the comments box write "colour/stripe/spot" whatever you have chosen.
HTH
mandy :pig:
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Farhaven
The trouble is that a lot of the people that work in DEFRA info centres and the new AML centre are not from agricultural backgrounds, they could be entering data about tins of beans or toilet rolls for all they know or care and if you ask questions will generally spout from the manual that they have in front of them, they know nothing of the practicalities of livestock keeping and as ever DEFRA in their wisdom have decided that with farming regs & rules one size fits all set ups! NOT :rant:
Your best advice for tagging info is your BPA breed rep but try to remember these reps are volunteers who give their time freely so they may not answer your e-mails asap, best to ring if you can at a conveneient hour.
Move your weaners on a coloured mark, thats what i do when they're going to somebody to rear for meat and on the AML where it says individually identified tick the yes box and in the comments box write "colour/stripe/spot" whatever you have chosen.
HTH
mandy :pig:
Exactly as Mandy says up here too - under a year-old - move with a spray mark, put spot/dot/stripe etc in under identification mark, print-off movement paper & give to the person to carry with them when they come to collect them :thumbsup:
Only difference is if they are going directly to a mart or abbattoir - any age pig must be permanently ID.
:love: :pig: :love:
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:wave: I'll be spraying them on saturday - Which is just what I had decided to do after the first couple of pages of this thread, thanks to the advice I was given from you all :thumbsup: It was just the last minute email from defra that confused things again ::)
Who needs defra when I have you guys :D