The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Mallows Flock on September 10, 2012, 10:01:57 pm
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Well, after much deliberating and telling everyone who has rang up for my sheep that they are already gone, at last some really nice people with a few acres and previous experience of sheep have rang up asking to visit my sheep tomorrow. Brilliant. They sound fab and just like the kinda people I want my sheep going to. However, tonight when I visit my sheepages, my friend and neighbours Poll Dorset x Lleyn ram lamb (born early Feb 2012) has broken into field and I caught him on top of my ewe lambs born late Feb and mid march. His winky was out but I can't tell if he 'hit the spot'. How likely is it that my 6 month old lambs have 'caught'? Obviously I will tell them the truth and see how they feel about potential February lambing but I would obviously rather they didn't become mothers so young. Any advice here peeps?
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I had a GFD ewe lamb caught last year and decided to let her carry, then bottle feed the lamb to let her dry off and grow on. She duly gave birth unaided, and was so full of milk I decided to leave her to it. Her lamb did just as well as the others and she has come on well herself. She has just gone to the ram again - planned this time!
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It's pretty common for commercial farmers to tup ewe lambs, I'd be careful about feeding them over winter/late pregnancy in that case. http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/04/09/2009/117533/Maximise-sheep-profitablitity-by-breeding-from-ewe-lambs.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/04/09/2009/117533/Maximise-sheep-profitablitity-by-breeding-from-ewe-lambs.htm)
Agree honesty is best policy :thumbsup:
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Oh darn it Hazelwood... I was hoping everyone was going to tell me "nah... t'is too early. They won't catch." ;) I don't mind for myself personally... but it looks really unprofessional to the buyers. Tho' I guess some may be thrilled. Means they get lambs quicker with no need to hire a tup, maybe!
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Is this a Shetland ewe lamb? (Isn't that what you have?) If yes I would be worried if she got caught by a large X tup... but also less of a chance of her taking... If a large Xlamb she should be fine with not too much food. But surely you can't sell her?
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Hi Anke
I do have Shetlands but these are my Shetland x Charollais ewe lambs that got meddled with. Oh god. Just thought.... surely not my Texel x Mules as well!!! :o They are pretty robust and sturdy. Not much smaller than the tup. It's more than one ewe lamb Anke.
That's what I was not sure about. The protocol and ethics of selling newly possibly impregnanted sheep. I have no idea. I have never actually managed to force myself to sell any before! LOL! I feel bad for letting the people down (but it really couldn't be helped) and if it is safe for my sheep to go and the new owners are happy with the situation, then I would be ok (just) to sell them but if they are at risk then i am more than happy for them to stay! Except next year I will have to man up and make myself sell twice as many! :gloomy: Tho' I could sell as ewes with lambs at foot maybe (it's easy to think like this when I have 7 or so months to change my mind back to keeping them all again!!!!!!!) :innocent:
The new owners, are, literally, a couple of miles down the road - just in case this piece of information is helpful to other post-ers.
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Mallows, these things happen in all species, it's just one of those hiccups life throws.
Great news you have found experienced people with knowledge. They will most likely understand as long as you are truthful and give reassurance of your help and advice if they need it. :sunshine:
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Yes Mammyshaz..... the lady's father is a farmer and his best friend is a certain someone well known in the Shetland Sheep Society so she has loads of advice and support to hand anyway.
I think best thing I can do is ring her in the morning to give her a good 8 hours before visit time to tell her of situation and give her time to think it over. If worst comes to worst, I have the number of someone selling Castlemilk Moorit x Shetlands she may be interested in.
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We tup ewe lambs and never had a problem lambing but we have had a couple reject their lambs but we just dry those off. Normally carry singles. you only tend to get problems if you feed the ewe lamb up and make it mature above its natural rate. A poll dorsetxlleyn ram isnt a bad shape as a tup for first timers. Just make sure you tell the prospective buyers
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Originally typed a reply while haze wood lock was typing, but Internet went down and lost a long reply ::)
Did, however, suggest the pants, pants, pants, be applied to the needed place next season :sheep: ( sorry, just couldn't help it after plums recent topic posts )
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LOL Mammyshaz.... i just read those posts too. Cracked me up! Sod the pants, I say. Nappies filled with spermicide will be in my kit for next season! :roflanim:
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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I put ewe lambs to the tup - usually end Nov/Dec from Apr born lambs (at 40Kg or over), even then, some wont take the ram. I feel that it is possible that your ewe was cycling, but not probable. I wouldn't sell her unless the purchaser is happy that she may be in lamb.
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I'd say there is a significant chance one or more of your ewe lambs could be pregnant.
Hoggs and a single lamb isn't such a bad thing - but I'd keep 'em handy when lambing as they sometimes need to be penned up and given some support to get the lamb to suckle (and be allowed to suckle) and to bond.
We often tup a few hoggs, the bigger ones, and later in the season - they learn their jobs and make better mothers as shearlings, but if they have twins it's best really to take one off and bottle-rear it, two takes too much out of a hogg.
It sounds as though your prospective buyers are novices themselves although they have great support to hand. I really wouldn't suggest in-lamb hoggs for novices; you need a bit of experience of lambing to cope with hoggs lambing, I'd say.
I could suggest a way to find out (pre-scanning) - if you could get hold of a teaser, raddle him, and run him with the girls, anyone whose bum he paints is not in lamb and could be sold. Anyone not painted is either in lamb or not cycling yet.
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Brilliant. I have a teaser. He is looking very much up to the job! Thank you ever so much for all the advice.
Lisa
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[quote author=SallyintNorth link=topic=27348.msg269747#msg269747 date=1
I could suggest a way to find out (pre-scanning) - if you could get hold of a teaser, raddle him, and run him with the girls, anyone whose bum he paints is not in lamb and could be sold. Anyone not painted is either in lamb or not cycling yet.
That sounds like a really good idea! Once you know who is in-lamb and who is not you can of course sell them, as long as you know what kind of tup was the culprit (so that prospective buyers know what to expect))... I would have just been uneasy to sell ewe lambs I am not sure about ...
However if they turn out to be in-lamb, surely the owner of the tup(s) needs to re-imburse you somehow for the misbehavious of his boys???? When I had my tup a few years ago at a rented field for the summer suddenly some ewes appeared in the next field and I was told by their owner to move my boy pretty quickly away from his girls as he didn't want to have Shetland lambs... It felt quite unfair at the time as I still had to pay for the last couple of months to the owner of the field I was renting... and then the boy came back infertile too (though he didn't know it).. >:(
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When we bought our heifer calves at 6 months they had been running with their dams and the bull. We had the vet jag them to bring them into season (therefore terminating any accidental pregnancy). Don't know if this would be an option for your sheep :thinking:
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Oh Mallows ;D ;D
Whatever you do don't feed em too much! My girls were put to the tups as lambs and have continued to GAIN condition all through pregnancy and feeding. They are starting to shove the lambs away now and are FAT >:( but other than not letting them eat anything I have no idea how to slim them down!
I would set aside some of your best hay for these young girls, should you be the one to have them at lambing (I would suggest you are as I don't recommend 1st timers for 1st timers if that makes sense?) and just let them have that and grass through the winter. MAYBE a little concentrate in the few weeks up to lambing but probably not.
If you need a hand give me a shout :wave: :wave:
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And WHO is selling Castlemilk Moorit x Shetlands???????????????
Have I some of these anyway?
Do I need more?
I might have an extra 4 acres of land soon...........
*cough* My name is Donna and I have a sheep addiction :-[ :roflanim:
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Sorry to hear about you predicament Mallows - I really hope you manage to sort it out. Don't beat yourself up too much about it, rams can be pretty persistent when they want to be! The key thing is that you are being straight with the people who want to buy them - that proves you are a decent and responsible shepherd.
Hey don't they say that during the first trimester you shouldn't do too much with pregnant ewes in case they miscarry - SO -how about doing some Sheepy Olympics with them?? (said VERY much tongue in cheek :-J )
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Well, what a day I have had. catching all ewe lambs and moving them into small paddock with teaser who was very interested in licking and trying to mount them all. Put rigs in also who demonstrated same behaviours. So pretty sure ewe lambs not in lamb which is great... but i rang the potential owners and told them the situation and was honest with them.... knowing what I know now, would I want the risk of a) Feb lambing as a 1st timer b) young lambs lambing without anyone to copy c) young lambs trying to hoik out Poll Dorset lambs 1st time. I advised them against it but ultimately gave them 6 hours to decide for themselves. They decided, wisely, against it. I have passed them onto someone else lovely who has more of what they want/could do well with.
NOW what to do? I have a sheep addiction so really should sell some of these but would it be best keeping them away from ram and maybe selling them in the Spring? I guess I will have a better choice of potential homes then and as Shearlings will be more desirable to buyers as future ewes? God, I love them all! All 46 have names!
Donna.... in the event of any babkins in bellies, dont worry, they will be on grass, high quality lick buckets and meadow hay only. I generally only try to feed concentrates after lambing to build the ewes back up or as a catching-treat... as 2 years ago, my 3 Charollais were fit to bursting on 1/2 scoop each per day, with hay over winter. Fatties! It's Mary with the Castlemilks. If you need to feed your addiction Don, Lesley has a Shetland ewe with deformned jaw going for free. Obviously a non-breeding home only!
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Well done, Mallows - best outcome for new owners and your ewe lambs. :thumbsup:
As to thinking that teasers and rigs paying attention and trying to mount means the girls are not in lamb... err, it's not quite like that.
The tups will try it on. When the ewe is receptive, she'll stand for the tup and he'll then successfully mount her, leaving paint on her rear to prove it (assuming you have raddled his chest and keep that topped up.) A ewe's cycle is 17 days; she will be receptive for less than 24 hours and then again 17 days later. Therefore on any one day you would expect only about 1/17th of the ewes to be receptive to the tup. You may get a higher proportion receptive immediately on introducing a tup if the girls have been running next to a tup for a while, but it won't be as high as 50%.
Any ewe lamb showing receptivity to the tup today was quite likely not cycling yesterday, so would not have been 'seen to' by the neighbour's tup. Equally, any ewe lambs receptive yesterday would probably have gone off the boil by today anyway, whether or not the tup's attentions were successful.
So if you do want to know which ewe lambs are definitely not in lamb, you will need to raddle your rig / teaser and run them together for 18 days (keeping the raddle topped up.) Any ewe lambs at the end of this period with unpainted bottoms may be in lamb, or may simply not be cycling yet. Those are the ewe lambs you will want to get scanned in December. Ewe lambs whose bottoms get painted by the rig are not in lamb.
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Donna.... in the event of any babkins in bellies, dont worry, they will be on grass, high quality lick buckets and meadow hay only. I generally only try to feed concentrates after lambing to build the ewes back up or as a catching-treat... as 2 years ago, my 3 Charollais were fit to bursting on 1/2 scoop each per day, with hay over winter. Fatties! It's Mary with the Castlemilks. If you need to feed your addiction Don, Lesley has a Shetland ewe with deformned jaw going for free. Obviously a non-breeding home only!
I have met Lesley's 'terrorist' and have offered a home in the event that ANOTHER lass who is interested lets her down. I might have a word with Mary....... ;D
I really will try and ring you tomorrow, my day was so hectic I haven't had time for anything ::)
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Donna... don't panic. I have a new phone... my first smart phone.... and I cannot use the flippin' thing properly. LOL. I am totally stupid with it. If you had rang today i couldn't even answer calls, but I can now! Woo Hoo!
SITN.... a ha (said in best Alan Partridge voice)... thanks for the clarification. I think I got the wrong end of the stick somewhere there. I have red and green raddle paste. Will use red on my ram in ewe field and green on rigs in lamb field. It's super greasy and last year one smothering lasted MONTHS! I have never used a scanner person before but think it's a good idea this year.
None of this lot were meant to be bred from.... but sold and money used to buy me rare breeds. LOL. Sally, what would you advise re: selling when time is right? As ewes with lambs at foot in late spring, or wean lambs and sell them all separately in summer? or something else?
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Erm ... rigs ... you can't be 100% sure that they will be sterile. Might be better to just use one teaser (vasectomised).
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Erm ... rigs ... you can't be 100% sure that they will be sterile. Might be better to just use one teaser (vasectomised).
Good point :thumbsup: Especially if the weather gets very cold... we had an unintentional rig whose internal testicle started working at external temperatures around 20C below...
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None of this lot were meant to be bred from.... but sold and money used to buy me rare breeds. LOL. Sally, what would you advise re: selling when time is right? As ewes with lambs at foot in late spring, or wean lambs and sell them all separately in summer? or something else?
Well, ewes with lambs at foot is usually a good trade - but I suspect you won't be putting them in an auction ring... ;) I'd have thought a few couples of hogg with a lamb at foot would make a cracking starter flock for a new smallholder. If they don't sell like that, or you can't make yourself happy with the homes offered ;) then you could spean and sell the fat lambs, and sell the ewes as lambed shearlings - again, good prices usually, as they've all their lives ahead of them but already know their job.
You could consider selling them as 'scanned in lamb', once you've had them scanned, but I'm guessing that may not suit you - unless the right sort of person were to come along and not too far away. (Won't want them having long trailer journeys in the last 8 weeks of their pregnancies!)
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I wouldn't have thought it's the end of the world, as the people coming to look at your sheep were presumably intending to breed from them anyway. Also, given that only about 60% of ewe lambs take to the tup in their first year, and he won't have got to them all in one night anyway, there can only be a small proportion, if any, that have actually got pregnant.
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LOL Sally... you got it.... I am just a sucker for sheep and tho' I do go to the markets to watch and learn and have considered selling in the market, I just have this massive guilt thing going on. Maybe I just need to man up a little. I like the idea of starter flocks in late Spring tho. They can have a month or so on good fresh grass after the winter, I can build the ewes up with concentrate and I can get them all vaccinated etc etc ready to go! Hmm. I like this plan. Thank you!
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Ooops.... logged in as my son again!¬ LOL! Mallows flock 'tis!
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Oh Mallows ;D ;D
Whatever you do don't feed em too much! My girls were put to the tups as lambs and have continued to GAIN condition all through pregnancy and feeding. They are starting to shove the lambs away now and are FAT >:( but other than not letting them eat anything I have no idea how to slim them down!
I would set aside some of your best hay for these young girls, should you be the one to have them at lambing (I would suggest you are as I don't recommend 1st timers for 1st timers if that makes sense?) and just let them have that and grass through the winter. MAYBE a little concentrate in the few weeks up to lambing but probably not.
If you need a hand give me a shout :wave: :wave:
Ewe lambs will gain condition themselves as opposed to passing it to the lamb because of their age - getting the nutrition right is one of the trickier parts of lambing gimmers. I would say from May - Aug sheep shouldn't need anything other than grass, unless they are compromised in some way or stocked very heavily. Most 'mineral licks' have molasses in them and /or soya protien. leave out Rockies if you must, but they really should be able to do on grass in the summer months. This will save your ewes getting too fat pre tupping. I like mine at condition score 2.5 maximum. IMO 3 is starting to ask for trouble, especially if they end up going a bit over. Similarly rams (in my book) should be no more than CS3 I want them fit, not fat. My stock rams never get routine concentrates (I have, however bucket trained some, because my dog does not yet work, but this is little quantities of beet at random intervals). They may get the best grass post tupping but thats as spoiled as they get.
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Steve's advice sounds fine for good southern ground. :thumbsup:
If you're on a Cumbrian hill farm, you'll either send your ewe lambs away to kinder ground for their first winter or will be feeding them from October onwards if you want them to grow right, so you would definitely need to be putting some cake into pregnant ewe lambs. You will also need to cake any Blue-faced Leicester tups from 6 weeks before tupping right through tupping and probably for the remainder of the winter afterwards.
So calibrate this sort of advice against your local conditions. But as Steve says, manage to condition score and you won't go too far wrong. ;)
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I think I need practice on condition scoring. I have seen the picture charts and think i have the hang of it, then when I am IN the field doing it, I am not at all sure. LOL.
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everyone's condition scoring will be different though - you have to remember how they felt to YOU last time. Eblex generally have good picture charts, but it's really a case of prodding :-J
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Ewe lambs will gain condition themselves as opposed to passing it to the lamb because of their age - getting the nutrition right is one of the trickier parts of lambing gimmers. I would say from May - Aug sheep shouldn't need anything other than grass, unless they are compromised in some way or stocked very heavily. Most 'mineral licks' have molasses in them and /or soya protien. leave out Rockies if you must, but they really should be able to do on grass in the summer months. This will save your ewes getting too fat pre tupping. I like mine at condition score 2.5 maximum. IMO 3 is starting to ask for trouble, especially if they end up going a bit over. Similarly rams (in my book) should be no more than CS3 I want them fit, not fat. My stock rams never get routine concentrates (I have, however bucket trained some, because my dog does not yet work, but this is little quantities of beet at random intervals). They may get the best grass post tupping but thats as spoiled as they get.
This is my trouble, they are fat on grass! There are no tubs, no concentrates nothing extra being fed! I can't feed them less than they get without taking them off grazing. Lil porkers ::)
I am hoping now though as the season turns if I make em keep grazing hard then they will come down a bit. I have till the second half of November, cos that's when I plan to put my tup in.
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One of my Charollais x is a fattie.... gets the same as everyone else. This March she lambed 2 big strong lambs... and people kept asking me 'when is she gonna lamb'??? The others looked quite a bit skinny and sucked in, she looked positively heavily in lamb still. And still soes...just not as badly. Fatty girl! But she is a beautiful curly girlie. Her daughter is taking after her tho... been on nothing but grass and tubby but is looking decidedly round. Her mother looks like a table. her back is almost FLAT! Flat AND fat!