The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Techniques and skills => Topic started by: lachlanandmarcus on September 10, 2012, 03:36:11 pm
-
Well after my course a month or so back I finally got all the materials together and we acquired an ancient petrol cement mixer for the princely sum of £35 (!) and so today I finally started the great Project.
Eventually this will mean pointing the entire exterior of the long single storey steading and the two storey barn. But I thought I would start a bit more modestly and am pointing the interior walls of part of the steading, it is separated off from the rest and is known as the Shoppie as at one time it was a cobbler's workshop.
The photos below are firstly the wall part I havent done yet, as a before, and the second is the part I have pointed (altho it hasnt yet had the tidying up and roughing up which will expose more of the stone. Also the stone looks a bit two tone as it is wet which helps the mortar adhere. NB this pointing doesnt have to be very precise as under the planning for conversion of the steading it will eventually be covered in insulation and plasterboard....:-O
For any lime geeks out there I am using NHL5 St Astier lime (walls are granite) and sand is Cloddau, nice colour and a good mix of particle sizes.
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o405/lachlanandmarcus/P1020974.jpg)
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o405/lachlanandmarcus/P1020975.jpg)
-
tidy. are you going to top coat it? if so dont forget to score the pointing ;)
-
Lovely job - I have a whole house to point and am getting in a right state about it - I want to do it right, but am kind of scared of starting, maybe a course is the way forward. Its been repointed before using cement based morter so I'm finding raking (chiseling!!)out a bugger and wondering if lime on top of remaining cement morter will be worth doing or wether to just use cement morter now that it has been done that way once..... AND I started looking at lime putty and there were no local suppliers... A million reasons to procrastinate on this one for me!! :innocent:
Anyway, lovely job!
-
deep in the woods no it is single layer - it is just a workshop for now until we save up the money for the conversion to extend the house into it (that we have PP for), at that point it will (have to be under the PP) be insulated / plasterboarded so wont be seen. Will be roughing it up tho in order to get max air/moisture into it tho.
FiB I know about that 'wanting to do it'but it being a dark art and not quite daring to get started - I would recommend the course as the materials arent cheap and nor is delivery of a tonne of special sand! so you want to get the right stuff and the course was only 2 days but gave me both hands on practice on a real old wall (not a mock up all perfect and unrealistic) and the confidence about exactly what materials to buy. I did my course at Fyvie Castle in Aberdeenshire with the Scottish Traditional Skills training centre. We were also taught lime rendering (harling) altho I wasnt brilliant at that and am quite glad that we had already had the part of the building that needed harling done by an expert.
Is your house granite or another type of stone? If it is granite then it will just about cope with cement mortar but if it's anything else it will be softer and cement is a disaster for it in terms of damaging the stonework and also causing long term damp issues. (Also lime looks sooooooooo much better).
I agree that getting rid of cement pointing/render is a bloomin nightmare, esp if on softer stone as it is hard to remove without causing more damage. One option if you decide to stick with cement would be to take it back as far as you can bear and then use something like Snowcrete which is basically cement with a bit of lime in it if you want a lime look without needing the knowledge. But it wont help any issues that have been/will be caused by the cement - if you can I would bite the bullet - its something you only do once and it gives you pleasure every single time you look at it.
You dont need lime putty for pointing, tho you can use it, but it is cheaper and easier to use hydraulic lime and make up mortar by adding sand and water. The putty is better for interior lime plastering and making limewash but it isnt so weatherproof. Also the putty needs to be kept airtight whereas the hydraulic lime powder is fine in air as long as it is dry and not damp. The type of hyd lime you would use depends on what stone you have - eg granite can take the 'strongest' one , NHL5 but softer stone might need NHL 2 or 3.
-
absolutely. take off the cement. causes no end of problems, damp etc. it might take a while to do but once its done its done for good.
-
Update piccy now I have done it all up to head height (apart from a bit over the door). The higher parts will have to wait until OH gets me a platform/ladder, so I will move onto the outdoor barn wall now, Camilla the cement mixer willing (she wasnt very, today :-))
The weird breezeblock vertical line and hole in the wall is new chimney and flue for woodburner, borrowed from a bedroom fireplace chimney as the workshop never had one but is to be a snug so needs it! It will all be under plaster, with the woodburner out in front of the wall.
You can see the wall on the left (with the window) is drying to a nice creamy white colour (tho I am spraying with water every day so it doesnt dry too quickly).
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o405/lachlanandmarcus/P1030001.jpg)
-
Looks great, L&M :thumbsup:
Takes me back 5 years when i did my place...doing all your
own work gives you a great sense of acheivement, Oh! and a sore back,
sore arms, etc. etc. but its worth it... ;D ;D
If you need any help OH is a great assistant! :innocent:
-
Hee hee! you'll get in trouble for the generous volunteering of others, they will be :rant: and you will probably be :unwell: ....:-)))
Definitely have backache as I went horseriding as well before I started and the 35 attempts at spin cord starting the cement mixer (carburettor setting screw had shaken itself out of ideal place and it too a LOT of tries to get it to the perfect position again...) added to the joy.
But you are right, Im really enjoying it, we cant afford to do all the work to do the rest of the conversion of the steading/barn but this way I feel as though I am making progress with it as this work would have to be done as part of that project, so it feels great! :thumbsup:
-
Last update as Ive finished doing all the emergency pointing on the barn end wall, the upper stuff involved me standing on the Landrover roof as it was a lot more stable than our flimsy scaffold tower! Then had to clean all the lime off the Landrover!
The only other task this side of winter is the upper parts of the workshop shown in the earlier photos; thats not so affected by frost being inside so I can carry on with that. Next spring I have a ruined cottage to start on....:-)))
NB this photo is just before its finished (doesnt show upper stuff at the right hand side/back of the wall)
(http://i342.photobucket.com/albums/o405/lachlanandmarcus/P1030023.jpg)
-
Congratulations!!! Looks brill. I'm still busy procrastinating on mine and winter drawing in..... :gloomy: !!
-
looking good! its very satisfying work for sure.
-
Looking very very good L&M, and I like your mini-mixer too. Hope you've got it covered before the next :raining: - how long will it take to dry out do you think?
Like Deep says, once it's done it's done for good - I like jobs like that - our place has lots of jobs like those, but unfortunately more that need doing again and again - trying to minimise those, less is more as they say ...
Nice to see someone taking pride in their work by the way, it's always good to compare your work to the work previously done by someone else on the same wall :thumbsup:
-
Congratulations!!! Looks brill. I'm still busy procrastinating on mine and winter drawing in..... :gloomy: !!
its that blasted frost isnt it - Ive had to call a halt outside cos I just cant be sure of getting enough frost free mornings now and the wall is too high for me to prop the hessian properly against it, and I have to dampen it every day and so worry about the frost ruining it.
Rain is no problem goosepimple, as long as Ive got it roughed back/tamped in once applied. They say to do that the next day but Ive found it is too hard already by that point so I do it last thing on the same day - by that time the shrinkage points are apparent and I can make sure theres a good seal between the lime and the stones.
The initial set takes approx 36 hours, the as hard as it will get set takes 3 weeks (!). Up to the 36 hours any waste stuff can be re-used (if you put plastic sheet down) tho the sooner the better so it is a lot less waste than cement if you are messy like me!
Im conscious that there is a high mortar to stone ratio but our place is more random granite rubble than fine dressed stone and this matches the previous stuff and also the house is the same, the mortar is just covering pinning stones really. Also, (the whole thing is Grade B listed) the planning permission we have for converting it and the single storey steading linking it to the house described the required pointing as 'rough slapping' (oo-errrr!) so I reckon that pretty much describes it!
Dont talk to me about previous work done, previous farmers have pointed the entire steading in rock hard cement at some point :-((((( and it is going to take months to get it out, with power tools probably needed to get it out. Have left that for now as it is suitably lichen covered and the granite has stood up to it and isnt damaged but that will be a longer term aim......
It has been the most enjoyable things Ive done to date whilst living here!
-
How do you create Lime mortar L&M ? I keep getting conflicting formulas. Last one said mix lime into water to a slurry and leave it overnight. Then add equal amount of washed/ sharp and use it. Takes two weeks to harden?
-
How do you create Lime mortar L&M ? I keep getting conflicting formulas. Last one said mix lime into water to a slurry and leave it overnight. Then add equal amount of washed/ sharp and use it. Takes two weeks to harden?
That sounds as tho it is for lime putty (made using hydrated lime) which is good for internal lime plaster, delicate work and smooth finishes, also for making up limewash. For pointing mortar or render (harl) that will withstand the weather, you dont ideally use hydrated lime as it isnt weather proof enough to last decades/centuries, though it might last a few years or more in kinder climates than ours: instead you use hydraulic lime (very annoyingly similar name!) which comes in sacks and has an NHl (Natural Hydraulic Lime) hardness rating. You match the hardness rating to the strength of the stonework (needs to be a little weaker than the stone or it will crack it eventually!) and the weather it has to face (the more extreme the weather, the stronger you would want the lime to be, provided the stone can take it). So where we are, we can use NHL 5 - we need it for Cairngorm weather but also our stonework is solid pieces of granite, which can cope with the hardness of the strong mortar.
To mix it (once wall is brushed of all loose material and joints picked out of any failed mortar and then dampened throughly, you mix 3 parts sand (need varying particle sizes, not builders sand!) with one of lime and then add water (amount depends on weather conditions but between half and one part of water. Mix for min 20 mins in a cement mixer. Once used the mortar has to be sprayed to keep it damp and it must not be exposed to frost, As it starts to set it needs to be roughed over and any cracks pressed to seal all joints. Initial set 3 days (the point at which waste bits cant be collected and reused), total set (tho it never sets as hard as horrid cement) 3 weeks.
I got my supplies from Masons Mortar in Edinburgh but it might be possible to get it more locally, just care with the sand, make sure it has those mix of particle sizes as it needs that and while the sand is relatively cheap, the delivery usually isnt!
You dont need to mix it up until you want to use it,
-
Thanks for that L&M. Sounds like it may be complex to sort out over here properly. The native limestone is so weak that drilling it without a hammer action is necessary otherwise it shatters. We still have the frost problems, rain and generally more extreme temperatures. Perhaps I will leave it until my French is better!
-
Thanks for that L&M. Sounds like it may be complex to sort out over here properly. The native limestone is so weak that drilling it without a hammer action is necessary otherwise it shatters. We still have the frost problems, rain and generally more extreme temperatures. Perhaps I will leave it until my French is better!
This article might be useful, it does say it would apply to porous limestone as well as to more dense stone, obviously its for what worth but it is specific to historic french stone building.
Getting the old mortar out can be a headache if someone has used pure cement; having said that it will <eventually> crack all your stones if left so you might decide it may be worth the power tool risk!
http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-renovation/displayarticle.asp?id=31155 (http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-renovation/displayarticle.asp?id=31155)
-
beeck make a fixative /primer for soft stone that 'mineralises' to form a harder more weatherproof surface for soft stone. i think its cxalled bs-plus
yup
http://www.cornishlime.co.uk/pdfs/Beeck%20BS%20Plus.pdf (http://www.cornishlime.co.uk/pdfs/Beeck%20BS%20Plus.pdf)
-
I like the exterior walls shown above.
We have rather a lot of outside walls to point up but opted for a "pierre reveal" on the inside. We did point p some big cracks with cement but basically we chose some stones at random NOT to cover in lime morta and used a brush to soften the edges around the "stone revealed". The stone is granite so we used a copper wire brush to clean up any revealed stones. Below is our bedroom wall in the old attic grannary - the other side of the wall is the inside of a barn. We discovered some small holes in the walls put some transparent plastic in to make windows so that we can see the nocturnal wildlife in the barn. Unfortunately we are always too sleepy to peer thru them.
-
That looks VERY smart MAK and nice to have it broken up and given character by seeing some of those stones! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :trophy:
-
Nice to be able to have walls like that!
We have just spent a lot of money putting thick insulation backed plasterboard in all our rooms on the external walls to try and make the place a bit warmer :cold:
-
theres also a product called 'hempsulate' which is a highly insulative lime based render. 300\ton tho...
-
We too had to insulate , plasterboard then plaster between roof beams and 3 outside walls. The wall we did ( see above) is a meter thick at ground level but a bit thinner in the loft - the barn is the otherside of that. We probabley do loose a lot of heat thru it but then in summer it may help cool the bedroom. We put 3 double radiators in it that the logburner heats. But - if it gets really cold this winter we can always move to a different bedroom below.
I have bought a cement syringe to use when I start pointing up outside. Essentially it is a large mastic gun - the tube is a plastic drainpipe that is filled with cement - it comes with different nozzels that helps you squirt in between stones. Works OK but it is a fag having to keep loading up the tube when you are working up a ladder.