The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Mallows Flock on August 20, 2012, 08:19:50 pm
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Unfortunately a few of my sheep are suffering from the beginning of scald. Not having a HUGE flock but having 45 to treat I think a footbath may be an easier and more effective method than spraying each foot with a topical spray and holding it in the air til it dries. However, foot baths are ridiculously expensive for a bit of plastic moulding and I was wondering if any of you guys had any ideas for a cheaper version that I can buy relatively easily.
Also, has anyone got any preferences on what to use i.e formalin and copper sulphate mix etc etc
thank ewe all
lisa x
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Formalin tends to make the hoof extremely hard, and if there is a bit of footrot already in the foot it can seal it in. Trimming is then made difficult by the very hard foot. It will also make your eyes sting, never mind the sheep.
I use zinc sulphate powder with a squirt of washing up liquid in it. Apparently this helps it stick to the feet.
I would think any sort of shallow container could be used, I use two footbaths in tandem, the first just water to clean the feet, then the next with the treatment in. They are then stood on clean concrete until dry.
Hope this is of use.
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Rich
Oh no, I don't want any crappy horrible chemicals stinging my girls eyes... zinc sulphate sounds much better. What solution strength?
Idea of water bath followed by chemical bath is genius. Will defo pinch that idea. And the fairy liquid tip!
I can't picture any large trough type things I could purchase...I have a blank mind! I will keep thinking!
Thanks for the great tips
Lisa:
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How about children's sand pit containers? It might just be big enough to have one sheep standing in it :)
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oooh... that's an idea... as long as i can 'race' them all through!!! I will look into those!
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How about a couple of long thick planks of wood and a thick tarpaulin sheet? Obviously fill in the ends and hurdles on top of the wood along side? Hmmm, can see it in my head :thinking: not sure if its coming across in the written form though!
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Ooh... I can kinda see it..... two long planks at the side..... some shallow plank 'ends' to keep it rigid and so sheep can trot out easily but also to allow a certain depth of 'formula' and a thick tarpaulin fitted inside... using felt tacks maybe??????
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Hmmm.... just thought... don't want girls slipping and also doesn't it need grooves to open cleats for maximum penetration????
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A little sand in the bottom maybe? And it should be deep enough to cover the feet anyway. Although by the time you've bought a tarpaulin, wood, sand etc you could probably have paid for a proper one :excited:
Plan B - borrow one? :innocent:
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Sbom.... wierd you put that when you did.... I was thinking exactly the same about the cost to make one and was just racking my brains who i could beg to load one from! LOL
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To give the best penetration of the bath solution you really should have a bath with ribs in the bottom to spread the hoofs apart - that is why the commercially available baths are more expensive - as they are not a smooth bottomed trough.
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Or you could not bother and footvax them.
Personally, Id cull for feet - but if its your whole flock that may be a bit drastic.
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Or you could not bother and footvax them.
Personally, Id cull for feet - but if its your whole flock that may be a bit drastic.
I am thinking of footvaxing them.
I don;t normally get foot problems... even with the lowland commercials... but this years constant wet weather and soggy soil and constant flushing on grass making them on longer blades than normal has taken its toll. Even the Shetlands are suffering a little!
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Does footvax give them protection against scald? I thought scald was a different organism; it often leads to footrot, I know, so footvax is quite possibly a good precaution, but I'm not sure it'll help clear up the underlying scald.
You'll improve the scald if you can put lime down where they congregate - around troughs for instance, gateways, etc. And turn off the rain and get the ground to dry up... ::)
We've discussed using formalin (trot them through a 2% solution - that won't harden their feet too much; but you may need to repeat every 2-3 weeks while it remains wet underfoot) and zinc sulphate (they must stand in it for some minutes) before; the washing up liquid is a new one on me, I'll try that sometime! And yes, the cleaner their feet are before entering the bath, the more effective the bath will be, so a 'prewash' is a great idea if you can do it.. If you can have them stand around on cement for 30-60 mins afterwards it'll be more effective.
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I think footvax does scald too, but I dont have any handy to check.
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Footvax only does footrot
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Footvax/-34363.html (http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Footvax/-34363.html)
Unfortunately they are caused by different organisms, just to make our lives a bit more interesting!! :-J
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Pea gravel in the bottom will open up the cleats, and save you having to use too much footbath solution.
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I think footvax does scald too, but I dont have any handy to check.
According to NOAH, Footvax is for:
the active immunisation of sheep as an aid to the prevention of footrot and reduction of lesions of footrot caused by serotypes of D. nodosus.
And for those, like me, who can never remember which way round it is, from NADIS:
Scald and footrot share the same primary cause, the bacterium Fusobacterium necrophorum which causes damage to the superficial layer of the skin between the claws and enables the establishment of other bacteria, including Dichelobacter nododus, which causes footrot.
In other words, Footrot is a secondary infection following infection by the scald causative agent, F. necrophorum. Footvax protects against the secondary infection, D. nodosus.
So Footvax won't help reduce scald, but will protect scaldy lambs from progressing to full-blown footrot.
:relief:
Ah, just seen Welshcob already picked up the NOAH bit. Never mind, we've got the bit about the two bacteria now as well.
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Mallows, If you are down this way, you are welcome to borrow my plastic footbath, it is about 8' long and 2' wide. PM me :thumbsup:
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I think footvax does scald too, but I dont have any handy to check.
According to NOAH, Footvax is for:
the active immunisation of sheep as an aid to the prevention of footrot and reduction of lesions of footrot caused by serotypes of D. nodosus.
And for those, like me, who can never remember which way round it is, from NADIS:
Scald and footrot share the same primary cause, the bacterium Fusobacterium necrophorum which causes damage to the superficial layer of the skin between the claws and enables the establishment of other bacteria, including Dichelobacter nododus, which causes footrot.
In other words, Footrot is a secondary infection following infection by the scald causative agent, F. necrophorum. Footvax protects against the secondary infection, D. nodosus.
So Footvax won't help reduce scald, but will protect scaldy lambs from progressing to full-blown footrot.
:relief:
Ah, just seen Welshcob already picked up the NOAH bit. Never mind, we've got the bit about the two bacteria now as well.
I knew I'd heard of farmers using it when the sheep had scald, now I know why....
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I bit the bullet and bought a footbath online... looks like I am gonna be needing it for a few years to come so a good investment!!! Thanks everyone for the advice. looks like Footvax is also gonna be on the cards too. I have been given a couple of kilos of copper sulphate to use with some fairy liquid in the footbath...but i am unsure as to whether I should use it or not due to copper toxicity issues in sheep! Anyone else ever use it?
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Copper sulphate in a footbath will be fine, just so long as the sheep aren't thirsty! ;) :D Seriously, some git did footbath a flock which had been water-deprived for 17 hours; they drank the footbath and were badly poisoned. But so long as the sheep aren't gasping for water, they'll be fine.
I think you may have to think about disposal, though - don't tip footbath contents away on the same piece of ground.
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Yes Sally..... I woke up at 3am thinking about how to dispose of Copper Sulphate! LOL! I may have to drain it into a barrel and tip it onto my 'dead' piece of garden at home! Nothing grows there anyway! LOL!
I did read about sheep drinking it - but my babies always have access to fresh water and i will make sure they are running through...not stopping for a a sneaky drink!
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I did read about sheep drinking it - but my babies always have access to fresh water and i will make sure they are running through...not stopping for a a sneaky drink!
I think they need to stand in copper sulphate; you can run them through 2% formalin, but they definitely have to stand in zinc sulphate - 10 mins min, I think - and I think copper sulphate is the same.
Don't worry, they won't drink it unless it's a heatwave and they've been without water for hours beforehand.
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I think I will stand them in it just to make sure. Bought a bag of hydrated lime today too and put that in their shelter.... they all walked through it immediately, handily enough. One of them was holding her hoof up loads after...she was one that was suffering with scald/stripe. I had already alamycin'd her foot yesterday so I am guessing the lime was just making the sore a little sorer temporarily!
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We are trying the footvax route. The wet weather here has caused havoc with feet and I am deeply ashamed by the number of limping sheep we have here. Mainly the Jacobs but one or two of the BWMs and Shetlands aren't great. I spent a long time agonising about footbaths and whether or not to use formalin or copper sulphate and had my mind made up by a kind friend who took the decision for me and arrived to help with feet armed with a footbath and formalin. He won't use copper sulphate because he once lost a ewe to copper poisoning (not footbath related). Anyway he showed me how much formalin he uses and the proportion was indeed very small - about 1% formalin - which he feels doesn't harden the feet too much.
So around 165 sets of feet later with aching backs all of mine except the butchers lambs have had footvax, and all have had their feet trimmed where necessary and been run through the footbath twice and are due another run through the bath tomorrow. One or two had a sneeze from the formalin fumes but by keeping things well ventilated it really wasn't too bad. And if my sheep can have feet in as good condition as my friend who has now set an identical regime for my sheep to the one he adopts for his then I will be very happy.
Two issues arose with footvax for us. Firstly I was advised not to use the spot below the neck the manufacturers suggest because doing so can lead to difficulties at shearing time. Ours have been injected above the shoulder instead which means reactions will be less noticeable in the show sheep and less liable to lead to cuts at shearing time. But please if anyone else is going to deviate from the recommended injection site then ask your vet first. Mine was happy with it but others may disagree.
Secondly please be careful. Footvax is dangerous stuff for humans. If you accidentally inject yourself do not ignore the advice to seek immediate medical attention. This is one occasion when it really is necessary to head for a doctor if an accident occurs.
As for culling in cases of footrot I remain undecided. I accept that in some cases susceptibility to footrot is clearly genetic. And if you have a family with that susceptibility then culling is sadly probably the answer. I do however have a ewe that had appalling feet when she came to me. I failed dismally to sort her out and decided she was so nice in other respects I would ask the vet to take a look when he came to do something else. After a really skilled trim and a jab of long acting antibiotic 18 months ago she now has super feet that require little or no attention. Her lambs have good feet as well.
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I'll be interested to hear how the regime works out, Fronhaul. :fc: it does the trick.
On culling for bad feet, there are a number of approaches. Ours is to cull repeat offenders, but to allow any sheep to need a bit of help once. Our land is very wet, even in a 'normal' summer; I'm not sure it'd be practical to cull every sheep that has bad feet even once.
I have several times considered introducing a bit of Exmoor Horn into the mix - they have very robust feet in their native, equally wet Exmoor.
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I bit the bullet and puchased a foot bath new but off ebay. Well worth the money and we now use it all year round when we have schools visiting us to footbath the visitors firstly as they enter our farm and then again when they leave.
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Hi Mallow`s Flock
I just thought I would add a few of my personal experiences ....
I used to use formalin when footbathing the sheep, but found the fumes awful and always ended up with a headache when using the stuff.It also seemed pretty harsh on the poor sheep,leaving them very very tender on their feet.
I now use a product called golden hoof which is a licenced zinc sulphate footbath.It is far more user friendly and I think does a really good job on lame sheep-the zinc is very healing.
Also, in the past have used footvax -It does seem to work ,but I found the injection site can swell and leave a permanent lump on the sheep :-\
hope you get a footbath sorted soon ......
Tilly :wave:
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As for culling in cases of footrot I remain undecided. I accept that in some cases susceptibility to footrot is clearly genetic. And if you have a family with that susceptibility then culling is sadly probably the answer. I do however have a ewe that had appalling feet when she came to me. I failed dismally to sort her out and decided she was so nice in other respects I would ask the vet to take a look when he came to do something else. After a really skilled trim and a jab of long acting antibiotic 18 months ago she now has super feet that require little or no attention. Her lambs have good feet as well.
It is hard in summers like this - I have had one or two limpers, but they seem to have got better before I have had chance to look at them, which is fine.
I tend not to look at culling for undesireable traits as being 'sad'. I approach it from a positive "who will I keep?" as opposed to a negative "who will I cull" aspect and also when you do cull, you find that you suddenly have a load more time on your hands because you are not dealing with that 5% of your flock who are causing you all the work, it is also those sheep who cause you the majority of your stress and it is nice not to have it.
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I rarely had limpers in the past but this year, it seems every day I go down I have another beginning of a case of scald. Lime powder has been helpful as a temp measure but what I need is some dry pasture :o) The footbath is taking an age to arrive - now been told it will come 3rd Sept so not too far off. I used to use Hoof Phast when I only had between 3 and 10 but not convenient now I am having to deal with 46!
A big part of the problem, I think, is that when I was new to it all, I took another sheep keepers advice who told me to keep the feet trimmed right back every few months! I since have been educated to realise that much less is much more in this department, but I had already been performing this task dutifully every 8 weeks for about a year so damage done! And I thought I was doing what was best from a pretty experienced keeper who had been rearing and breeding sheep (commercials) for 9 years!!! Now I only trim when they begin to limp as I understand this is correct protocol now.
I like the sound of that Golden hoof, Tilly. I will defo be looking that up. Thank you!
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Quick update for those interested in the footvax/footbath experiment.
After two weeks most of the serial limpers are sound or nearly sound. One or two of the sound sheep have developed a touch of scald that seems to be sorted by a squirt of blue spray within a day or two. Where there was a hole in a bad place on at least one ewe the formalin in a very mild concentration (I have been aiming for one per cent) has not sealed the problem area. And after some very gentle trimming on one ewe the hoof did not appear to be any harder than usual.
Time will tell but so far things are looking much better.
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I have been really impressed with Nettex Lameless foot solution that I have recently used on my small flock for the first time. The wet weather has played havoc with quite a few of my stock, resulting in scald, and so I decided to buy a tub of lameless and mix some up in a large bucket as I do not have a footbath to run the sheep through. I penned them all up and caught each one and bathed their hooves in the bucket. All were very amiable expect for Lucy the Suffolk who took great exception to the whole episode. However, after a struggle her hooves were all soaked and within 24 hours the signs of lameness have virtually vanished. Would definitely recommend.
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Zak... I hear it clings on pretty well... better than other solutions. Do you think this is the case and maybe why it has been so effective?
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Possibly, although it is very water based as you just mix up the powder with water and then add a small amount of the bottled liquid solution. I did hold their hooves in the water bucket for several seconds to allow the solution to penetrate inbetween the toes though. Would have been much better with a footbath to run them all through really, but this way worked well for a small number of animals.
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is engymycin not the treatment for scald? if so can u not inject it aswell / instead of spraying?
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Engemycin is also injectable but the leaflet (as found on NOAH) does not list any of the scald/footrot organisms, so I wouldn't use that to inject, better another one. Engemycin spray however good for foot infections.
http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Engemycin_LA__200_mg_ml_Solution_for_injection/-28888.html (http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/MSD_Animal_Health/Engemycin_LA__200_mg_ml_Solution_for_injection/-28888.html)
It must be something to do with direct contact of the medicine with affected area, if you inject it might not reach appropriate concentration in the foot where is needed.
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Quick update for those interested in the footvax/footbath experiment.
After two weeks most of the serial limpers are sound or nearly sound. One or two of the sound sheep have developed a touch of scald that seems to be sorted by a squirt of blue spray within a day or two. Where there was a hole in a bad place on at least one ewe the formalin in a very mild concentration (I have been aiming for one per cent) has not sealed the problem area. And after some very gentle trimming on one ewe the hoof did not appear to be any harder than usual.
Time will tell but so far things are looking much better.
I am curious where one can buy FootVax in the U.S. ? I read a press release on the American Sheep Industry website (http://www.sheepusa.org/Sheep_Industry_News_Detail/newsID/4930 (http://www.sheepusa.org/Sheep_Industry_News_Detail/newsID/4930)) stating that the USDA has frozen the licensing.
After reading a study by Virginia Tech (http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/410/410-028/410-028.html (http://pubs.ext.vt.edu/410/410-028/410-028.html)) , I am eager to get my hands on the vaccine to use in combination with bathing and paring. According tho their study this method produced the best results.
But I can't find the FootVax vaccine, and am starting to worry about our small flock of Navajo-Churros who really need help.
Any advice folks can provide on where to find the vaccine would be deeply appreciated.
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I just heard back from Merck and they said "Footvax has been discontinued and our inventory is depleted."
Does anyone have any other sources?
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hi
this site is based in the UK and although we have members all over the world it may take sometime to get a response on something specific to the US.
good luck
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I just heard back from Merck and they said "Footvax has been discontinued and our inventory is depleted."
Does anyone have any other sources?
Is your ground particularly boggy?
If not, Id suggest you start culling hard for feet - if something goes off its feet, trim, spray with terramycin or alamycin spray, mark and sell as a cull - try not to keep its daugters either, in a few generations you will have minimised your foot problems, some sheep seem naturally resistant to the footrot bacteria.
I do this and only buy off people who have this policy and this summer I can count the number of limpers I have had on one hand.
I know it sounds like a long slog, but your flock will be better for it eventually.
If hey are *all* limping then you might have the wrong breed for your farm, different sheep suit different places.
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Is your ground particularly boggy?
If not, Id suggest you start culling hard for feet - if something goes off its feet, trim, spray with terramycin or alamycin spray, mark and sell as a cull - try not to keep its daugters either, in a few generations you will have minimised your foot problems, some sheep seem naturally resistant to the footrot bacteria. .
If your ground is boggy, do exactly the same, except don't cull the first time they have a problem, cull if they have a second problem. So mark one colour the first time you treat a ewe, and if such a one needs treatment again, then mark her to cull.
You can't expect them to have no problems on boggy ground - but you want to select for those which recover and develop resistance to the bugs.
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Cut a propcorn barrel in half down the length