The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: pixie2010 on August 19, 2012, 11:39:36 am
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Hi, I have been breeding Hebrideans for the last 4 years, but have also just bought 12 Scotch Mules and I am trying to determine the best breed of Tup put to them ..we tend to lamb outside, but could lamb inside if required but I am concerned that the Texel may be too difficult for a first-timer ? Consequently, most people seem to be advising a Suffolk for easier lambing ?? we havent ever had to intervene with our Hebs, so I have little practical experience of lambing. Any advice gratefully received ?
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Just my opinion, like but I'd be nervous lambing mules outside - I've not met many that are easy lambing, they seem prone to problems whatever.
I believe the easiest lambing tup would probably be a charollais, but there is no way Id lamb a char x outdoors.
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Charolais would be easier lambing but depending on where you live not ideall for lambing outdoors. Although we have in the Midlands with no problems. Wouldnt recommend suffolks, big awkward and very slow to get up on there feet, not the best if there's foxes about. We have a Blue Texel tup at the moment,have had very little problems lambing and they are up and suckling faster than any other breed I've seen, although some Texels can produce big headed lambs which can cause problems at lambing. I'd much sooner use a Charolais than a Suffolk that's for sure.
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What about a Dorper?
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I have some mules and have put Suffolk tup on several times and Southdown. Both produce excellent meat, Southdown is leaner. Depends what you want to do with the lambs. Suffolk tup doesn't mean difficult lambing like pure Suffolks. My lambs are always big and strong and straight up feeding. Suffolk also gives excellent breeding ewe lambs so you have option to sell on etc. Southdowns I found had pretty ugly lambs, not very big and I only ever slaughtered them.
I also wouldn't recommend unpenned outdoor lambing as mules can be a bit flighty and commonly have twins/triplets therefore get tangled. I watch them and pen in field if I can or bring in as due to lamb. I found this quite successful this year and only lambed inside if I thought they were going to pop in middle of night.
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First let me qualify that my experience is with North Country Mules out of Swaledale mothers; I am not sure how different a Scotch Mule (out of a Scottish Blackface mother) might be. Possibly she'd have thicker-set lambs, and perhaps she'd be more flightly and not quite such a good mum as the NC type, but that's hearsay not experience.
If the ewes haven't lambed before, then the problem is that the new mums will adore every lamb they find, whether or not it's their own. So best to have them handy and get them penned as they lamb, while they bond. Generally they love their lambs and let them feed without too much hassle, so the only real issue is the mixups. Experienced ewes are much wiser and better at not accidentally adopting lambs that aren't their own.
So if they're first-timers and you'll have them handy, and penned for a day or so, then I'd use a Charollais. Easy lambing, land on their feet heading for the milk bar. Can be rather bare, hence, especially if it's cold and wet where you are, you'd want them handy / indoors.
If Charollais not suitable, we've been very pleased with our Dutch Texel on first-timers - a little smaller than regular Texels, tight skins (so slip out well), nice active little lambs that grow on well.
If you have to use a Texel on first-timers, try to get a one with less massive shoulders.
I've never used a Suffolk myself, so can't comment about that, except to say that we did buy a pen of scotch-type Mule hoggs with Suffolk lambs at foot - and they were pulled right down by producing and rearing those twins.
Looking forwards to pregnancy and lambing, it would be best if you can get them scanned and have at least the triplet carriers handy so you can help any with problems; also if you had any single-bearers, you'd want to feed less or the lamb may become too large to lamb. If you can't scan, then I would advise that you avoid flushing so hope for no or few triplets, feed well in the last 8 weeks of pregnancy on the assumption they're all carrying twins.
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Wow...thanks so much for all the feedback, it is all extremely helpful. My plan would be bring them in to a small grass paddock, which is really close at hand in the last few weeks and therefore I can watch and bring them in as and when required. I'l keep you posted, thanks again ! :excited:
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If I do use a Charrolais Tup, how would the resulting lambs compare with those from a Suffolk or Texel as fat lambs for market in terms of size and price ??
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If I do use a Charrolais Tup, how would the resulting lambs compare with those from a Suffolk or Texel as fat lambs for market in terms of size and price ??
Charollais fatten very well indeed, giving marketable lambs hitting the supermarket and export requirements as well as any Texel. We find a Charollais cross lamb will weigh 1-1.5kgs heavier than a Texel cross of the same age - and our neighbours say the same. They should give good conformation, as good as or better than a Texel.
We have the Charollais crosses from our better Texel ewes away at 12-14 weeks, c. 40kgs liveweight, 19+kgs deadweight, and they'll grade in the Es and Us. Those from the Mules will take a little longer and grade U and R.
We don't use a Suffolk tup, and with a Suffolk you're looking at producing a heavier lamb, so it's a different market - less export, more butcher / catering. Usually less per kilo but hopefully as much per head for the heavier lambs.
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What about a Dorper?
I've always been impressed with the shape of a Dorper, but i hear that even the ones bred here struggle a bit in our climate.
You could just as easily use a wilts horn or another shedding type.
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The Scottish Farmer is full of Texels this week, almost every page, so a popular choice and the two shows I was at this year had a big turnout on the Texel section. I expect they have qualities that are not immediately obvious (such as tasty meat) - I think they look like some genetically manufactured beast - a cross between a bull calf and an axminster rug.
Sorry all Texel owners, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Wouldn't it be more appealing crossing them with something which resembles a sheep. (now I've really done it!).
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Have to say, Goosepimple , I am with you on that one...compared to my beautiful (and extremely tasty) Hebrideans !!
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Or my lovely and tasty Ryelands ;D
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The Scottish Farmer is full of Texels this week, almost every page, so a popular choice and the two shows I was at this year had a big turnout on the Texel section. I expect they have qualities that are not immediately obvious (such as tasty meat) - I think they look like some genetically manufactured beast - a cross between a bull calf and an axminster rug.
Sorry all Texel owners, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Wouldn't it be more appealing crossing them with something which resembles a sheep. (now I've really done it!).
In this case it's about producing a lamb that the buyers want to look at, be it from a 'wooly pig' or anything else.
Incidentally, I use a suftex as my terminal sire for oudoor lambing, bought performance recorded from an outdoor lambing set up.
However, its the 'mule' part of the equasion that worries me for outdoor lambing...if the op had, say Lleyns or Highlanders or Aberdales or Romneys or Easycares or or....
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What about a Dorper?
I've always been impressed with the shape of a Dorper, but i hear that even the ones bred here struggle a bit in our climate.
You could just as easily use a wilts horn or another shedding type.
Quite why someone so far north would want self-shedding eludes me... ???
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We crossed our Hebrideans with a texel tup who is twice the size of them. Was very dubious about the cross but they all had lovely lambs outside unassisted with no problems. The lambs were as big as their mums after 10wks and matured heightwise somewhere between the Heb and the Texel whilst also carrying the meaty bulk. Males were horned and the ewes polled. Looking at them you wouldnt believe they had come from Hebrideans.
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As I understand it, the primitives such as Heb, Shetland, etc, have more room through the pelvis than the more modern commercial sheep, so are able to birth a proportionately larger lamb.
I haven't lambed a Heb or Sheltie, so can't tell you how they feel inside compared to a Mule. The mule is more roomy than a Texel - but then, these days, a lot of purebred Texels are conceived using AI to a sponged ewe and born by caesarian. :o
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What about a Dorper?
I've always been impressed with the shape of a Dorper, but i hear that even the ones bred here struggle a bit in our climate.
You could just as easily use a wilts horn or another shedding type.
Quite why someone so far north would want self-shedding eludes me... ???
Shedding sheep will succeed on the hardest, most northerly climates - they just lose their fleece in summer. Its just that Dorpers were bred in very southerly climes to begin with so aren't hardy.
Heres a guy on some very hard ground who runs shedding ewes from a NCC and an easycare: http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/livestock-features/‘unconventional’-cross-sheep-has-excellent-growth-from-low-inputs/37146.article (http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/livestock-features/‘unconventional’-cross-sheep-has-excellent-growth-from-low-inputs/37146.article)
Edited to add: Wilts Horns themselves have been exported to Canada. Shedding sheep don't get 'cold' like some people seem to imagine and slso they shed out when the ewe is good and ready, unlike ones that are shorn when people decide they are ready, and ergo, all at once.
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Food for thought. :thinking:
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I have herd people in other places mooting an easycare shetland - since shetlands naturally shed off a bit, I reckon it would only take one cross to a shedder to get the fleece off them- and then you have a very hardy, shedding ewe that can do on very little and like the shetland could rase a big lamb...
If anyone has shetlands, Id be very interested to loan you a wilts or shedding composite ram and maybe buy back some ewes...
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If anyone has shetlands, Id be very interested to loan you a wilts or shedding composite ram and maybe buy back some ewes...
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( "All that beautiful Shetland fleece!" wails the spinner...
But yes, it would be an interesting experiment.
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I have Scotch Mule x Texel cade lambs and they are pretty ace... fast growing, gaining weight nicely and seem to enjoy thistle tops, nettles and rougher grass as well as the good stuff.
They are quite baldy on their heads, ears and undercarriages compared to other breeds I have so would be a little concerned crossing them to naked Charollais' despite me loving Charollais x's as I keep bleating on if lambing outside although Charollais are renowned easy lambers.
I will prob cross mine to a Lleyn if i can get my hands on one... easy lambers, prolific, multiple births and fleecier. A Lleyn was a very good cross to my Charollais'.
I am also a huge fan of Shetlands crossed to commercials i.e to my Charollais'... the results were fantastic and all lambed outside on their own.... popping out like cherry stones.
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Just spoken to my Suffolk keeping farmer neighbour... he said avoid Suffolks esp if you are an inexperienced lamber as they are notorious for having lambing difficulties and often 'over-do' with smallholders. He said Lleyn or Poll Dorset.
As for Texels looking like Bull Calfs, I have always described them as the 'bull of the sheep breed' LOL! And I love them!
These are my Mule x Texels (see pic below)
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Thanks everyone, lots of great info and certainly food for thought. I appreciate all your comments.
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Well here are a couple of my Suffolk crosses out of my mules. Now 5 months old
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Wow...they look all suffolky with mule legs :thumbsup:
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I'm quite pleased with my SufTexs ad expect them to be easy lambing.
I cant see why you'd put a mule to a maternal breed like a lleyn though, unless you wanted to keep offspring as replacements.
I'm not sure that wool cover as adults has much to do with the lambs. Wilts Horns are like little chewbaccas when they are born. Charrolais are like those hairless cats....... :P
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We were given the following advice by another Cumbrian farmer :
If you don't want bare lambs but do want to use a Charollais tup, make sure you choose one with plenty of wool on the top of his head - his lambs will be less bare than those from a bare-headed Charollais.
We have followed that advice, and the majority of our Charollais x lambs have sufficient covering to manage even on our Cumbrian hill farm. If it's very wet and cold when they're born we might bring them in for a day or so, and we'll put jackets on the very young ones if it's very wet, but we only get one or two very bare lambs each year.