The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Mallows Flock on August 12, 2012, 01:52:11 pm
-
I am a bit of a dork with all the Shetland fleece styles and colourations! So far I have got the idea of katmoget, Gulmoget, Black and grey under my belt but have recently had 2 new little babkins who look different to the others I have had born to date and was wondering....................
does anyone know what this colouration is......is it Fawn Katmoget? The mother is a grey Katmoget!
Cheers :thumbsup:
-
Actually, it would also be good to know what colouration/type this lamb is too..... the one in the middle with black legs and face and reddishy/grey fleece!
-
The Shetland Sheep Society will sell you, cheaply, a poster charting all markings. :sheep:
-
I have it Sylvia but it doesn't help me in this instance as it's a poster of drawings rather than photos so I find it confusing to follow with any slight colour or pattern variations. thanks anyway tho x :)
-
I have it Sylvia but it doesn't help me in this instance as it's a poster of drawings rather than photos so I find it confusing to follow with any slight colour or pattern variations. thanks anyway tho x :)
I've just looked at our SS poster and I'm non the wiser either!! it is dated 1996,BC (before cameras) ;D
-
I have it Sylvia but it doesn't help me in this instance as it's a poster of drawings rather than photos so I find it confusing to follow with any slight colour or pattern variations. thanks anyway tho x :)
I've just looked at our SS poster and I'm non the wiser either!! it is dated 1996,BC (before cameras) ;D
LOL.... glad it is not just me!!!!!!! :D
-
I am no expert on all the shetland colours but the lambs appear to be moorit katmogets....basically the same as katmoget but brown where their mother is black! No idea on the grey one and I agree that chart is very confusing ;D
-
gosh Val...i didn't even know you COULD get Moorit katmogets! LOL! Oh my..... these kids are confusing. They need to be blacks or whites or grey katmogets! then I am ok! LOL!
-
LOL .....!!! Both sorts of basic katmogets make very desirable sheepskin rugs!!!! I believe there are others...gul katmoget? but no idea actually what colour that is!!!
-
Basically Shetland sheep have three sets of colour genes.
Set 1 (called the Agouti set), In order of dominance, most dominant first:
White, grey mouflon, grey, light katmoget, katmoget or gulmoget, other solid colour
Set 2. Black or brown
Set 3. Plain or spotted
Each sheep has two genes of each set. So I've put what we know and ? if we don't know what the second one is.
So your Grey katmoget has 1. Katmoget/? 2. Black/brown 3. Plain/?
The reason we know she's 2. Black/brown is that she herself is showing black (grey katmogets are basically black with the katmoget pattern on top) but must have a brown gene which she's passed on to her lambs.
Your moorit katmoget lambs are: 1. Katmoget/? 2. brown/brown 3. Plain/?
Going away to think about that brownish lamb with black legs!
-
OMG JayKay...have had to read your post about 6 times!!!!!!!
So, basically, the twin lambs are Moorit Katmogets and their 3 sets of colour are 1. Katmoget/? 2. brown/brown 3. Plain/?
AreMoorit Katmogets pretty common?
if it helps, the Sire of the twin lambs was a Grey.... not Katmoget...just a grey so maybe the genes for the lambs are:-
1. Katmoget/grey 2. brown/brown 3. Plain/plain?????
Does it even work like that?
The reddish one with black legs had 2 grey parents... not grey katmoget...just grey!
-
Hi Jay kay any chance of more info on the grey mouflon in shetlands? i thought this was only in icelandics but i am very happy if it is also in shetlands.
thanks
-
Jaykay... here is a close up if it helps!
-
Kanisha, the reference I was reading suggested grey moufflon in Icelandics, Shetlands and Finns but much rarer in Shetlands. Will try to find it.
Mallows, it does work like that, well done!
Except that if the tup had passed on his grey gene, the lambs would be grey, not katmoget as grey is higher up the list than katmoget, ie more dominant.
So the tup must have been grey/? where the ? is katmoget or other solid colour and that's the gene he passed to the lambs.
Your lamb with the black legs - the nearest I can find is grey moufflon moorit. Very rare!
1. Grey moufflon/? 2. brown/brown 3. plain/?
-
The mouflon pattern includes the tear drops and pale bits either side of the tail ie Soay most common pattern and Shetland Gulmoget, whereas this chap has Suffolk and Norfolk horn markings, with a plain black face.
Katmoget with brown rather than grey/black is usually called fawn katmoget as far as I know :sheep:
-
Fleecewife wrote "whereas this chap has Suffolk and Norfolk horn markings"
In the shetland these are called grey
grey mouflon is the same markings as described for the soay but a much paler hue there is less contrast between the light and dark pattern. As a single gene pattern this is rare but its perfectly possible to have a sheep that has both mouflon ( gulmoget) and grey patterns the end result is rather similar to a grey mouflon but derived from different genes
-
Fascinating!!!!
Mallows....is he/she reg Shetland or could there be a xbred in the mix? I know from owning some many years ago that pedigree shetlands have paper pedigrees with several generations on them?
-
Hi Kanisha
My point was that he doesn't have mouflon type markings, where jaykay had suggested he is 'grey mouflon moorit'.
I like to imagine the Shetland Islanders getting together on those long winter evenings and thinking up every different colour variation they have ever seen then giving each one a name - just to confuse non-Shetlanders ;D ;D . They probably just call them 'white', 'dark' and 'patterned' when no-one else is around ::) :stir:
-
Moorit katmoget would be 1. Katmoget and 2. Brown. And would have brown legs.
Grey moufflon is its own single gene and is dominant to the gulmoget pattern. It's expressed at the Agouti locus (set 1 in my first answer to Mallows) and it's possible, though rare, to have both 1. grey moufflon and 2. brown genes, which is what I'm suggesting the lamb has.
A normal grey gulmoget would have 1. gulmoget and 2. black
Here's a grey moufflon moorit, though not a Shetland
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/jaykayg/68580ad4.jpg)
They probably just call them 'white', 'dark' and 'patterned' when no-one else is around
:D
-
Apparently "splodgy" is not approved terminology either :innocent:
-
Lol, you've never seen so many complicated names for all the different varieties of 'splodgy' :D
Mallows lamb may not be grey moufflon moorit. It's just my best guess for the black legs and pale moorit body. Happy to hear other suggestions?
-
Christ..... I think I have just entered the wrong lamb into the show!!!!!!! LOL
-
Its grey
-
Well, that would make sense, since the tup was grey.
They do say grey is the most variable colour.
-
This is the dam's pedigree (for the lamb with black legs and head)
http://www.ppdb.org.uk/sss/sheep/pedigree?id=camaron (http://www.ppdb.org.uk/sss/sheep/pedigree?id=camaron)
The Sire is currently being registered by the previous owner so I don't have his full pedigree yet but I can post his parent's pedigree!
-
This is my sire's dad's pedigree
http://www.ppdb.org.uk/sss/sheep/pedigree?id=hillend+xavier (http://www.ppdb.org.uk/sss/sheep/pedigree?id=hillend+xavier)
this is my sire's mother's pedigree
http://www.ppdb.org.uk/sss/sheep/pedigree?id=apshill+bella (http://www.ppdb.org.uk/sss/sheep/pedigree?id=apshill+bella)
-
Ok, no grey moufflon there so that was wrong.
There is a bit of moorit way back. But the interesting thing is that there is just that one emsket animal, mostly they are blacks (grey katmogets are genetically black katmogets) so how come the lamb is grey?
-
LOL... you have me on that one...but seeing as I have NO understanding of this genetic malarky you could tell me it was sky-blue-pink and I would believe you :excited:
So, we are saying she is a 'grey'. I have to admit, earlier on in the year she literally looked grey underneath and reddish brown on top her fleece.
-
Sounds like it.
Have you got a photo of her dad?
-
Hi Ok you are so going to wish you never asked ;D
there is another explanation which involves another gene
to use Jaykays parlance another set.
this one is still under investigation but alot of the work has been done on north american shetlands and it looks as if there is also a possible dilution gene in sheep.
they go through a stage where they look like this. see photos below... however I would stress this is only one possible explanation for the colouration you describe...
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/Photo548.jpg)
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/Photo547.jpg)
-
Yes, there are various 'modifiers', just to confuse the issue further :D
And if you think this is bad, or you want a brain-workout, try chicken plumage :surrender:
-
That is very very similar to what her fleece looked like a month or so ago colour-wise but not as long!!!!!!!
I have photos of her dad...one when he was a youngster and one which is only a head shot....will hunt it out and post it in a mo!!!
This is all fascinating stuff!!!
-
Right... here are 2 photos of him when he was about 10 months old....
-
This is the mum this April (aged 4) and the lamb in question when she was a couple of weeks old. Her nose only got that white ring round it during gestation...then it goes again not long after!!!
-
I am no expert on shetland patterns ( ouessants are a lot simpler) but it looks to me as if the lamb is grey and the dad almost looks like there is blue ( I didn't think shetlands had blue pattern?) maybe grey and Katmoget?
-
Dad is a grey katmoget, which makes sense from his pedigree. It's sort of palely expressed - the suggestion is that there's a 'pale katmoget' gene as well as a 'katmoget' ones, so perhaps he's that. Certainly he's not as definitely marked as my grey katmogets.
Mum is showing a 'katmollet' face there - genetically I have no idea what that is, neither has the paper I was reading.
The lamb looks like a grey katmoget, but with her dad's paler version of it. See how she's darker underneath. But that's not quite right as she has her mum's katmollet face......
Here's my uncomplicatedly-grey-katmoget as a newborn lamb
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/jaykayg/056ff067.jpg)
-
LOL... so basically, I just have complicated sheep...that figures! LOL!
I will get a good close up picture of lambkin (Ursula) and a picture deep into her fleece. This is fascinating but very confusing!
-
I had a fawn katmoget it was light on top but fawn underneath. Different to yours.
The Grey is light grey on top black underneath.
-
Apparently "splodgy" is not approved terminology either :innocent:
Fleckett?
I just love the name for that marking type!
-
You need to go see Mrs B over the ford ;)
She had for a long time, moorit katmogets and greys, plus a host of other varieties :love:
She managed to ID the markings of my odd lamb. Turned out to be moget faced which I had never heard of!
-
I think one of my katmogets is really mogget-faced, ie the pattern only shows on the face and she's not a different colour underneath
-
You need to go see Mrs B over the ford ;)
She had for a long time, moorit katmogets and greys, plus a host of other varieties :love:
She managed to ID the markings of my odd lamb. Turned out to be moget faced which I had never heard of!
Don... the mother of all my lambs are Mrs B's bred ewe's.... I have emailed her pics. She thinks the fawn katmogets/Moorit katmogets will be grey as loads of hers start out brown but lose it and turn grey.
I am gonna take the black faced/blacked legged ones over to her after the show to see if she can decipher her colouration. I try and avoid Mrs B tbh.... everytime our paths cross I end up poorer money-wise but richer Shetland flock-size wise! Hahaha! I really MUST close my flock but I keep seeing more little fleecy-gorgeousnesses that want to come home with me. My name is Lisa and I am a sheepaholic!
-
Where do you think my guys came form???
I thought that might be where yours were from, she breeds such a lovely 'type'. I used to help her out and graze my first sheep with her when her flock numbered in the hundreds and never saw such pattern/colour combinations :love: :love:
-
LOL... she said you had helped her in the past... I can just imagine the pair of you... as mad as a box of frogs! LOL! She is really lovely... always has a mug of coffee on offer and its lovely to see a sheep 'farmer' who adores each and every one of her sheep. And her place is gorgeous.
I keep telling her we need a pair of handsome, fit, DIY experts to do all the chores we can't do/hate doing i.e fencing! LOL!
-
Dad is a grey katmoget, which makes sense from his pedigree. It's sort of palely expressed - the suggestion is that there's a 'pale katmoget' gene as well as a 'katmoget' ones, so perhaps he's that. Certainly he's not as definitely marked as my grey katmogets.
Mum is showing a 'katmollet' face there - genetically I have no idea what that is, neither has the paper I was reading.
The lamb looks like a grey katmoget, but with her dad's paler version of it. See how she's darker underneath. But that's not quite right as she has her mum's katmollet face......
Here's my uncomplicatedly-grey-katmoget as a newborn lamb
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k70/jaykayg/056ff067.jpg)
I want that lamb!!!! ;D
-
She's a cutie isn't she? She knows it too - comes up and has her ears scritched :D Just in case I wasn't already thinking of keeping her ;)
I keep telling her we need a pair of handsome, fit, DIY experts to do all the chores we can't do/hate doing i.e fencing! LOL!
Sounds like a good plan to me ;)
-
She's a cutie isn't she? She knows it too - comes up and has her ears scritched :D Just in case I wasn't already thinking of keeping her ;)
I keep telling her we need a pair of handsome, fit, DIY experts to do all the chores we can't do/hate doing i.e fencing! LOL!
Sounds like a good plan to me ;)
My Shetlands are ALL pretty flighty...despite bucket training, being in with super duper friendly orphans... it is a shame as I would love to get closer to them and be able to sit amongst them like I do my others to scratch as they pass by but I think it is not to be. I will keep at it and just see if they come round :-\
-
About half of my Shetlands will eat out of my hand I find that its a good way to get them used to me There are some that will have none of it.
-
That's about where mine are BC. Half will come up and eat out of my hand, a quarter of the rest hover nearby and the rest are wick - especially when I'm trying to gather them ::)