The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: jaykay on June 17, 2012, 09:14:17 am
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Can someone explain for me - I'm having to deal with this on my own and I don't get it.
I have a septic tank, cover in the front garden, neighbour pumps it out once a year.
I think there is an overflow - there is a manhole cover a field away, in the roadside verge, which my ex used to refer to as the soakaway cover. It often overflows onto the road and smells. I don't know what the link is between the septic tank and the soakaway and I don't know what the soakaway does?
Now the drain from my yard, under my goat byre, isn't draining properly and every time it rains hard the yard floods and it goes through the wall into the goat byre, soaking the straw <this makes me so stressed>.
Dad and I cleared the drain out manually and also with a high pressure drain clearing hose. It doesn't seem 'blocked' but there is water in the bottom, as though the water table was high or something.
I am not sure where the drain drains to, can't find anything. When I was clearing it with the high pressure hose, the septic tank smelled a bit, as it does when I run water through from the house for a while - as though it got 'disturbed'. So I'm wondering if the drain goes into the septic tank, but that should be ok as I have it pumped regularly (and don't use bleach or anything).
But what about the soakaway?
I have to solve the yard drain problem, it's a day of back breaking work to clear out the sodden straw in the goat byre........
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Someone who knows far more about such things will be along :thumbsup: We have a septic tank and the soakaway is to allow the liquid portion of the contents to, literally, soak away into the ground. You shouldn't need to have your tank emptied frequently if it's working properly, but clearly it isn't - there shouldn't be much smell from the soakaway. Ours has to go by pipe under the road then fans out under the field opposite, which is downhill of the house.
When drains are working well they are a wonder but when something goes wrong - well, you are experiencing how stresssful that can be.
I hope someone can help.
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A septic tank is fill-up and empty system which is pumped out periodically you describe. It is unlikely that it has a formal overflow cos they aren't supposed to get full. So I'd speculate that the yard drain is linked to the soakaway which is either full or, more likely, the pipe is blocked or broken.
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FW that sounds more like a cesspit unless I've got the terminology the wrong way round. We have one which is a cavernous tank built nearly 50 years ago in block work with gaps all round. It has never required emptying or any form of maintenance since and I'm sure doesn't meet any water regulations
The neighbours put their tank in 20 years ago and it's a plastic tank which is pumped out periodically.
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Oh well, mine might be a cesspit, I didn't know they were different things :fc: It's old and block/brick.
The soakaway is definitely something to do with the cesspit.
How can it get full/blocked?
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septic tanks hold the solids and liquid the liquid is drained of to a soakaway or reed bed to dissipate the water
in theory there should be no solids going down to the soakaway but it can and does happen and in all probability has
drains will smell by the nature of the product it is not perfumed even chocked field drains can smell after a few years of blockage
rainwater should not be going into a septic tank as it buggers up the action of the bacteria in the tank
the best system is twin septic tanks that way there is no chance of solids escaping and eventually gooing up the works
the old tanks were brick or block with it cement lined to stop any leakage :farmer:
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Ok, sounds like the soakaway might need clearing out then.
But if the drain wouldn't have been designed to empty into it, I've no idea at all where that goes. It disappears under the goat byre. But doesn't seem to come out the other side anywhere. The whole yard slopes to drain into it :-\
It has been fine for five years. But now it's a disaster and I can't work out how to solve the problem. But solve it I've got to, I can't have the goat byre flooding every time it rains hard (every other day at the moment :P)
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that may be the problem it is not designed for the volume of water that it has to deal with
what type of soil do you have :farmer:
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Peat over clay
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I forsee vist from man with mini digger (why never a woman)
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But what's he going to dig?
The drain goes under the goat byre somewhere/how, which has a brick floor and is the only place the goats have to live :'(
The soakaway? I can see I'm going to have to get brave and look inside the cesspit and soakaway :P
I'm supposedly bright and capable but this stuff sort of scares me :P
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it scares most as the reality is you have to use a spade :innocent:
if it is a soakaway filled with gravel it could be silted up then just dig it out refill with clean gravel and everything is alright again they are best piped to a water course and that is the end of it
septic tanks and soakaways are usually the last thing that money is spent on and corners cut cheaper options used but it all come back to haunt you at a latter date
you will need to find the end of the pipe and start from there
very few girls are digger operators but any that are are usually very good it could be something to do with hand eye coordination or being told 9 inches is actally 3 inches Lillian can operate both diggers and artic dump trucks :farmer:
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Cross posted with you Robert :)
Ok, got very brave and lifted the cesspit lid.
Pretty full but mainly liquid I think (and it was emptied not so long since, so should be).
Strongly suspect the soakaway of not working. Went to where the cover is - bad smell there. Couldn't actually see a cover, but found the rocks which the ex put on top to stop idiot townies parking on top of it.
Here is my current theory. For whatever reason the soakaway isn't soaking away.
The drain under the goat byre is probably cut into the pipe/trench that goes from the cesspit to the soakaway.
Since the soakaway isn't soaking away, neither can the rainwater.
The issue now is what to do about it.
I used up all my 'brave' on the opening up the cesspit.
Will have a coffee and a spin, and consider. Might have to call out the drain/cesspit people. God alone knows how I will pay for that but I can't continue like this.
Might go and see if I can find the soakaway cover and lift it, though not sure what I'm going to discover even if I do.
Anyone used these guys? Their website seems to talk sense? MWWaste (http://www.mwwaste.co.uk/soak.html)
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I'm intrigued by the idea of a soakaway with a lid. We've got a number of them here and they simply consist of a cubic metre of soil taken out and the hole filled with shingle.
If the soakaway itself has slow drainage then you may need to make it bigger or dig another one to help it out.
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Cess pits have emergency drains into a tiny soakaway in case they fill up and back up the toilets in the house. Cess pits are huge but usually need emptying every 3 months.
Septic tanks take many forms but the old ones were simply a series of concrete tanks where one flowed into another giving time for the solids to settle out. The newer ones (Clargesters) are a fibreglass tank with inner and outer chambers. Whichever one you have (unless its the newest Biospheres) they suffer from blockages of the soakaways over time. If the biological action of the tank is poor, the solids get carried to the soakaways and they sludge up very quickly. But they need replacing every 20 years anyway. They will be a series of trenches, the length of which depends on the percolation of the soil. In your case its poor and you would need perhaps 100 metres of trenching.
So Jaykay, I think you have an expensive problem to resolve.
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And no money, post 'ex moving out to be 'free and easy'' but leaving me with all the obligations :'(
Fooking love life sometimes :P
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Guess the first thing to do Jaykay is establish whether it is a septic tank or a cess pit. If it's a cess pit it just needs emptying out before its full. Septic tank may be 500 gallons, cess pit may be 3000 gallons. How much was pumped out last time? If it is a septic tank it needs new soakaways and it may not be big enough or acting properly. We started ours with a few buckets of the surface crust from a neighbours. But it didn't work well because we had a dishwasher, which kills them. So we stopped using the dishwasher and I dumped 50Kg of rotting sheep guts into it. That worked. Traditionally you start the action with a dead cat or fox. You can probably buy an enzyme pack now to start them off. If they are working properly you don't empty them more than once a year, in fact a customer of mine had one that had gone 20 years without emptying, because once digested the waste solids occupy very little volume. I converted a cess pit into a septic tank because of the cost of emptying it all the time -and the stench and mess!
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Mmmm, I have a dishwasher. And a washing machine. Can't see me stopping using the dishwasher unless absolutely essential.......What is it about them that's so bad?
It's a septic tank, definitely has a soakaway. My neighbour pumped it out about 5 months ago - partly cos he was sick of the smell of the soakaway overflow :-\
I'll get an enzyme pack - nothing dead at the moment (shouldn't say that too loud).
But the fact that the drain from the yard won't drain in heavy rain suggests a problem with the soakaway I think. So maybe I'll have to get a new one dug?
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Hiya JayKay - big hugs, I know the feeling of something going wrong and not knowing how you'll get it sorted /afford it :bouquet: . There isint anything wrong with dishwashers/washing machines per se (Assume you are using ecover or equivelant (septic tank friendly products) - but if you use them a lot the volume of water can overload your septic tank (flushing out all the good bacteria, ecpecially if you havnt got a good stable crust) - we have our washing machine and bath going to a soakaway (yes I know we shouldnt). OR it may be that you are having your septic tank emptied too often - ideally it will only need desludging every 2-5 years (or longer) if you are kind to it and it is stable. It sounds to me like your soakaway has silted up and needs sorting - but this doesnt have to be a dear job - my neighbour next door has just had his done - it was a day of local man and digger. Ask around who is the local person for this - I'm sure there will be one that the farmers use as its the same kind of task as getting drainage in a field (dig big hole, lay suitable pipe in it (conected to your ST outfall , usually in a herringbone pattern for ST soakaways), backfill with gravel and put soil back and grade.
I am sure you will be able to find a local man - if you go to the nationals I suspect it will escalate the price A LOT. Really good luck :fc: . There is always something isnt there - our weekend disaster was water coming in through kitchen ceiling and discovering split in loft water tank :) Gotta laugh.
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Hi FIB, hope it didn't cause too much damage! And thanks :-*
There's only me (though I put the poo from the three dogs down the manhole too) so in terms of water, washing machine a couple of times a week and dishwasher about the same, plus a shower each day.
Will get some enzymes. And talk to my neighbour about getting a new soakaway dug :-\
Thank you very much to everyone who's come and talked it though - it helps so much to be able to do that and get advice from people who understand :thumbsup:
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Hang on - What man hole are you chucking the dog poo down ?
Not the man hole inspection beyond your ST ( the out flow).
Chuck into the ST but not in the outflow - that should ne pretty clean water that then it taken away to soak down into the ground as explained by others.
I do hope all is sorted out at minimum cost and stress to you. BW.
Oh = I found my ST and water outlets with diviners and an exploratory trench. I dug down to try and expose the ST lid - as I neared the lid a few bubbles appeared then the lid lifted itself - it was so full. The young lady who emptied it told me that her company ( her dad) last emptied it 20 years ago.
Good luck.
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Thanks MAK :)
It's ok, manhole in back garden, washes into septic tank.
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Hope this is sorted as quickly and cheaply asossible for you :bouquet:
If you need a hand give me a bell, will be free from Wednesday noon :thumbsup:
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You are a darling, thank you very much :thumbsup: Probably not going to get near it this week or next truthfully cos of work, but will see if I can find out who my neighbours would use for drainage (they're renaissance men so probably do it themselves) and pluck up courage to find the soakaway cover.
Have emailed the ex regarding it (just for info, where is it etc. but no reply)
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Ah Dog Poo is also worth considering... found this -
A septic tank is designed to deal with a certain population only, with regard to organic matter. This is usually 5 persons for a 3 bed house, 6 for a 4 bed house, etc.
A medium sized dog produces approx. 1.5 persons worth of BOD (roughly, organic matter) in its faeces daily, so if you have a septic tank that is sized for 6 persons with only 4 persons using it, the tank can accept the dog waste from 1 medium sized dog, but not from 2.Source(s):http://www.wte-ltd.co.uk (http://www.wte-ltd.co.uk) Soooo....If at anytime you feel that your septic tank is not performing well (perhaps if the effluent going into the soakaway is unusually smelly or has lots of solid matter in it) it might be worth considering composting your dog poo separately. Not sure what load your septic tank is designed for but you are putting the equivelant of nearly 6 persons waste inaccording to the figs above (washing machine aside). I have a rather unnatural interest in sewage treatment, having worked for Severn Trent for nearly 20 years (before this life) - many of them as a process scientist whos job was to go around problematic sewage works and work out what was wrong! You've got to nurture your Septic Tank!
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Ah, that's interesting FIB.
No idea what the original septic tank was built for but possibly not for 6 people. I had factored in my dogs at only 1 person equivalent each, though I can see what they mean about them bring more than that ::)
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{{{{{hugs}}}}} and :-* :-* :-* :-* :-* :-*
(Only just seen this thread.)
I can never get the terminology right but the type you probably have that needs bacteria ecosystem will be harmed by dishwasher and washing (clothes and you) chemicals, so make sure all your soaps, shampoos, washing up liquids, bath cleaners, dishwasher tablets etc, floor cleaners - any and every chemical that will go down the loo or sink waste pipe - is an eco one.
:distasteful material warning; you may wish to skip this if you are eating your dinner:
Secondly, whichever 'country sewerage' option you have, any of the pipework gets blocked solid (nearly like cement) by any sanitary product at all (yes even the little wee tampons that don't grow humungous when wet) and even by loo paper if a lot of it is used. (Apols for granny-sucking-eggs lesson if you already know all this.) So learn to use dog-poo bags for any sanitary things and put them in the dustbin, and make sure your loo roll is as eco as poss (composts well, not too bleachy or strong-when-wet) and nothing, nothing except eco loo paper and bodily effluent goes down the loo. (Voice of experience speaking, have rodded out enough of my own effluent over the years to have well and truly learned this lesson. :o)
I also wonder whether the "100-year-rainstorm overflow under the byre and into the soakaway" tactic has become rather more frequently required as rainfall has increased in recent years, which, coupled with blockages for the above reasons, would account for current flooding?
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Thank you :-*
No, don't put anything untoward down the drains or loos. Reasonably careful about detergents, never use bleach. Don't put grease, coffee grounds or anything like that down the drain. Mum and Dad have had septic tank for years so got all this advice when we moved here.
But the dog poo issue might be one. Plus I think I will add some 'bacteria and enzymes' though probably not in the form of a dead fox ;)
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Plus I think I will add some 'bacteria and enzymes' though probably not in the form of a dead fox ;)
;D That was a new one on me on me too. Just think if Id known about that I could have saved my former work place a fortune with a bit of road kill ;D I can see some sort of logic - the kind of bacteria that flourish on carrion might possibly survive or adapt to an aquatic environment and help make a starter culture - bit of a 'solids' problem tho!! Good luck you :fc:
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Just to lighten things up.
If you climb on the roof and drop a live chicken down the chimney it will clean it but may have a heart attack. If so then chuck it into the septic tank.
OR - a pint of old milk will help activate things.
We keep our septic tank busy but never use chemicals. Water with shampoo, washing up liquid etc etc goes a different way into a couple of soakaways I dug under the lawn.
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Before you dig a new soakaway or anything to do with sewage - dont tell the planners, nor the environmental agency or let anyone who would grass you up see you doing it as amending current systems to new legislation will mean £xx,xxx's of your hard earned money.
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Thanks Bazz - I will be clearing round the area only of course :thumbsup:
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re new legislation - I have heard that the Environmental health are starying to send out letters around here to come and inspect ST arrangements. They will have a heart attack if they see ours (made out of 2 IBCs in series with internal baffles. All above ground!). I dont know how the chap that converted this place got it through building regs 30 years ago but pretty sure it wouldnt cut the mustard now! It works really well thoughg - so if they go on an effluent basis we'de be OK, but I suspect they have a number of 'approved' designs? Now a new ST... NOT cheap. Anyone had their system inspected?
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FIB they have been bringing in new legislation from the sixty's i think a fee accompanies any application that is the point and so they know every bit about your crap disposal
your system from the brief description is what is referred to as silt traps very efficient at what they do
it is the biological demand of the water that concerns them BOD the clearer the water the better :farmer:
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JayKay
Don't know if this is same prob you have but sounded like it. OH is a builder and he recently went to see someone with a similar problem and it turned out that it needed something called interceptors between the tank and where it goes out (suspect they catch the cr.. er solids which cause the blockage) It maybe that your pipes/drains just need rodding (if you'll pardon the phrase! ;) ) to clear any yuk and then fit some of these interceptor things, took OH & oppo less than a couple of hours to do think he charged the bloke £80.
HTH
mandy :pig:
Ps OH is always rodding our own drains pig chuds & straw seem to get everywhere! :innocent:
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interceptors work as well but only if they are cleaned out if you fit them and forget them it is just the same as not having one fitted :farmer:
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Ok, finally I managed to talk to one of the local builders who was involed in putting in the original septic tank and soakaway, and who has added to the soakaway recently.
He says that the pipe from the tank to the soakaway runs along the edge of the road and that the yard drain is not cut into it. Also that he and my ex extended the soakaway a couple of years ago and apart form the problem that it is in a bog (the entire dale is a bog!) it is working fine.
So we think that the yard drain, which is ancient, must also go into a soakaway under the byre, which has got silted up. So we are going to dig an additional channel so that, in heavy rain, when the drain soakaway can't cope, the excess can run into the beck. That's not a problem, since it is only rain.
I am so relieved 1. My house drainage system is fine and 2. There is a simple solution to the yard drainage
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Great news jaykay :thumbsup: just need some dry weather for you to sort it now. :fc:
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Oh, that sounds much better :thumbsup: Very glad for you. How have you been coping with this torrential madness?
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:wave: are you back from holiday - do you have a good time?
Floods on Thurs, drove through one halfway up the car doors on the way home from work in a panic to get home to check my animals, what with the beck the way it goes. Had to keep going or the water would have come in the exhaust. Scary :o Animals all fine :thumbsup:
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They won't allow any soakaways here if the water table ever comes within 1 metre of the surface. That's both rainwater and septic tank outlet. Current regulations they told me. It' a 'percolation test' that determines the size of the soakaways. They dig a metre deep hole and chuck some water into it to see how long it takes to soak away. In our case it's gone before you can hit the stopwatch because we are on a sand and gravel base.
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Don't think any of the soakaways in this valley would pass a percolation test - except maybe for the occasional dry weeks in April. We probably all ought to have biodiscs with clean outflow fitted but few of us farmy people have enough money.
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:wave: are you back from holiday - do you have a good time?
Aye, home last night. We had a great time, thanks. I've been warm enough for 24 hours a day for 8 days! Now it's back to waterproof leggings, fleece, windproof long jacket, woolly hat... :( Ne'er mind, Cumbria has its compensations. :thumbsup: (You're one ;) :-*)
Spent the day washing and then this evening - clipping my Castlemilk Moorits! :thumbsup: What fleece! I am so made up with them! Not much of, of course - I'll weigh them but I bet I get less than a kilo from the 4.
Floods on Thurs, drove through one halfway up the car doors on the way home from work in a panic to get home to check my animals, what with the beck the way it goes. Had to keep going or the water would have come in the exhaust. Scary :o Animals all fine :thumbsup:
Crikey, that sounds horrid. Thank goodness you're all ok.
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Ne'er mind, Cumbria has its compensations. (You're one )
:-* :eyelashes:
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HI Jaykay, don't have time to read all previous replies so apologies if this has been covered. We had this problem recently and OH had to dig up the entire soakaway - it snakes around a large part of our ground near the river and had become blocked - what happens is that the holes in the pipe are quite a small diameter and because of all the rain etc we are experiencing now they tend to become blocked with bits of gravel / general debris - the holes not being big enough to allow these to escape.
Your tank is an old fashioned one, not now suitable to building control standards - we have one of these too which we took a long time to realise it is now redundant and there was another type put in place nearby which has 3 manholes to take all our buildings. The idea of the tank is that it generally soaks away and should never need emptied.
Blockage somewhere, you just don't want a man who doesn't really know where to start and dismantles everything.
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That's what I was worried about GP but it seems now that the builder who was involved originally is sure that the tank and overflow are working well and that the yard drain runs to its own separate soakaway.
Since the yard drain is only getting rid of rain water in the main, we can divert any excess into the beck pretty safely we reckon.
It was me who worried it was plumbed into the septic tank/soakaway system but that was just on the basis of misunderstood underground geography which the builder was able to clear up for me. I suppose it would have been a silly thing to do, to cut the rainwater drain into the septic tank system, not to mention the former is much older than the latter.
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There are lots of historical drainage systems out there doing things we wouldn't find acceptable today particularly near rivers as they were no doubt used as flushing systems. With all this flipping rain and huge rivers things back up causing problems.
Good your not wading around in the myre though, mucking out your own house might have been the straw that broke the camels back! :D [size=78%] [/size]
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What is now my day-to-day hay and straw store was once the netty, built directly over the stream so it emptied straight into it ;D
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;D convenient, sure there must be a set up there for the goaties Jaykay!
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Glad yours went ok.
I got to have a vent now on my septic woes - sorry - but it maybe useful to someone taking up a similar operation.
As you may know we have a campsite here and have been upgrading our toilet facilities for an estimate 60 person per night campsite, its seasonal but we told the planners that the toilets would be in use all year (or we would need a three stage waste system - we also would leave the toilets open all year anyway, but not like the system is going to have a hammering all year).
I had to buy a tank that basically outputs clean water - 6m long - 3.5 high and 2.6 wide - and needs constant power to run - it needs 500m of soakaway pipes 8"
Its quite literally almost more work than building the toilets.
I'd be surprised if only the first 100 meters of soakaway was ever used by the system.
I've also had letters asking about my personal 'hole in da ground' asking to register and get advice. - er no, it works fine as it is thanks. ;)