The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Elmoo2u on June 12, 2012, 09:02:08 pm
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Hi,
I have an orphan lamb ewe who is 2 months old, she has a lump on left side of her neck at her jaw which has got larger in past few days and tonight I checked it and it is quite hard now. She also has a slightly bad eye on same side but that has improved.
She has not lost her appetite and seems ok in herself, she has always been the quietest out the lot.
Does anyone have any suggestions on what it could be?
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I'm guessing an abscess. Keep an eye on it, or if feeling particularly brave and gruesome, stick a syringe with a fat needle into it and see if 'stuff' comes out. She could probably do with an antibiotic injection anyway. Even so, it will need emptying if it is an abscess, keep bathing it with salty water if she will let you.
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Thanks for quick reply.
I gave her an antibiotic a couple of days ago when it started to increase in size but was still soft, thinking it might go down. Now that it is hard I wondered if whatever is in there might be about to pop out!?
I will have a look tomorrow and maybe pluck up the courage to drain it.
Would you think because she is still eating well that she is ok? I worry that if it gets much bigger it might restrict her throat?
Very new to keeping lambs and I'm learning everyday
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It sounds as though it's on her jaw more than her throat?
I'd drain it anyway, the pressure is what makes them hurt.
But yes, if she's eating well and looking normal it doesn't sound too serious.
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Personally I would be inclined to stick it and see (new short needle, lots of antiseptic spray to hand etc etc).
And then I'd go and vomit in the corner. Not good with popping things :-\
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Cheers for the advice much appreciated.
It is at the top of her neck slightly on her jaw and all on the left side, she was a bit dull and eating less a couple of days ago and that's why I gave the antibiotics but since then she has been tucking in to her feed no problem so I did think she must be ok. She does like me to give the lump a good scratch so maybe it's itchy.
I will drain it tomorrow if I can, I'm not squeamish so should be ok, I just worry that i'll hurt her but I guess the lump must be irritating and painful so I will do my best.
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Here's advice from a non smallholder 8) ::)
The pressure of the abscess on the skin seems to numb the area so the needle isn't usually felt too much :thumbsup: just make sure a second person can restrain her so the needle doesn't prick inner tissue if she moves as she will feel that. Find the thinnest area which looks ready to 'pop' and insert the needle slowly at this point.
Suck as much pus as possible leaving the needle in place and reattaching the syringe to remove more so no need to repuncture. Them withdraw the needle and if she allows squeeze any leftover pus out. Antisept spray area. And cover with antibiotic.
As I say, not a smallholder so all above advice may be useless if you cannot restrain her sufficiently ( I only have the pleasure of dealing with 'pets' ) hope it helps anyway :fc:
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i watched our vet try and drain what we thought was an absess (albeit in a pig) which wasnt. he stuck in a needle and used a syringe to try and drain it. it was obvious there no pus there so im sure u can stick it in without causing to much damage/pain to ur sheep if ur careful, whether its an absess or not.
we did have a sheep who had an absess on his eye after a fight, it burst and sealed then reburst in another area. i did try and pierce it but being so close to his eye, i was a bit squeamish. he needed antibiotics and lots of hot compresses as it looked awful for a while. hes fine now.
hope that helps ;) :wave:
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Thanks Mammyshaz and princesspiggy, you have put me more at east about putting the needle in.
I will post back the results of my first potential abscess drain just in case anyone is interested to hear what it is. I may need some advice if it doesn't drain :-\
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Arrggg... the suspense is killing me...I am on my seat edge awaiting the result of the pus-trial! This is LOADS better than Eastenders! LOL
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the vet gave me a scapel to use in the future, even tho he used a needle.
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Whats the breeding of this sheep?
If its a hairsheep or hairsheep cross, goitres are fairly common and non-threatening.
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Caseous Lymphadenitis causes abscesses around the head and neck. They don't drain liquid pus but are filled with thick cheesy stuff, which doesn't respond to antibiotics. It is very important to get a lab test on this as CLA is contagious and can cause big losses in your flock. Hopefully it's not this, but you do need to take it seriously :sheep:
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As FW says, CLA is a concern. Make sure you capture everything that touches the exudate - cloths, needles, knives, containers, whatever - and anything you are not taking to the lab, dispose of with great care. I'd suggest burning but don't in fact know if there'd be a risk of its spreading this way.
CLA is most often spread by shearers, the clippers nick an abcess on one sheep then pass the infection to the rest of the flock - and the next flock too, if the shearer is less than 100% in his / her hygiene routine.
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How common is CLA? We noticed a couple of sheep with abscesses during shearing. One I put down to a Heptavac injection site but the other ewe had an abscess half way back on her side.
I'm guessing there are multiple reasons for abscesses/cysts developing so I don't want to become paranoid but it would be helpful to know what the likelihood is of abscesses being down to CLA rather than something else. Also is there a way of reducing the chances of this disease getting into the flock - other than ensuring the shearer doesn't bring it onto the farm?
Finally can CLA be transmitted to humans and does the meat of a sheep with CLA get condemned?
Oops, that's quite a lot of questions... :eyelashes:
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Haylo-peapod, Moredun have an excellent paper on this:
www.moredun.org.uk/webfm_send/172 (http://www.moredun.org.uk/webfm_send/172)
It's now endemic in the national sheep flock; I'm not sure about goats (although it originated in goats in this country, that is, it arrived in infected goats.)
According to the Moredun doc,
"some abattoir inspections will refuse carcasses depending on the extent of abscesses within an animal, and entry to show classes can also be refused"
There is no vaccince.
Breeders of tups may get their flock and stock accredited through a blood-screening program; I think this is managed by SAC. Obviously it would make sense to only buy in rams (and billies?) from accredited flocks / herds; I don't know whether it is feasible to get bought-in animals screened whilst they are in quarantine on arrival.
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From a US site
Can I vaccinate for this disease?
A vaccine is available for CLA, but it is licensed for use only in sheep. Vaccination will not cure abscesses or make them go away. Vaccination will not prevent all new abscesses in exposed animals, but it has been shown to reduce the number of new abscesses substantially. Lambs can be vaccinated as early as 4 weeks of age if exposure in a heavily contaminated flock is likely. However, they should have booster vaccinations at about 4 week intervals until they are 12-16 weeks of age. Older sheep need two doses four weeks apart and annual booster vaccinations.
A combination of vaccination, culling, and management of the environment to reduce the risk of exposure can reduce or eliminate the disease over time. Vaccinated animals may show some lameness or depression following vaccination. The vaccine is not approved for use in goats, and some owners have reported occasional severe reactions. A veterinarian should prescribe its use in goats.
It doesn't seem sensible that if it's caused by a bacteria it can't be vaccinated against?
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Firstly I would think this may be more likely a tooth growing problem than a CLA abcess - are animals this young affected by CLA? Then it would have to have come in through milk from an infected ewe?
CLA is only rarely transmitted to humans - mainly hearers and abattoir workers (as per my goat vet book) - I guess it is goes in through wounds/nicks the person has on his/her hands. So I would probably wear disposable gloves when handling any kind of abcess.
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Hi Folks,
Well I put a needle in today and managed to drain some of the fluid, not that much came out about a syringe and a half. It was a sort of a cloudy dirty colour, no blood. She was pretty patient but when she started wriggling I stopped and put some iodine on the area and gave her a jab of antibiotics.
I have just checked her tonight and the lump is still there and still hard to touch. I am thinking of seeing what she is like tomorrow and I might get my friend (who is a nurse) to come and see what she thinks and see if she can drain it anymore. Unless anyone has any other ideas? Should I wait for longer to see if it goes down or keep draining?
I don't know what the breed is of this lamb, I just got it along with another 3 and they are all different breeds.
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Take a photo so we can see the lump but also tell you the breeds of your lambs :)
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Well I put a needle in today and managed to drain some of the fluid, not that much came out about a syringe and a half. It was a sort of a cloudy dirty colour, no blood.
Pus would range froma cream to yellow colour and anything from runny to clotted cream texture.
Was the liquid more brown or grey? Just wondering when you say cloudy dirty.
If it is then it sounds more like a cystic lump of some sort.
Let us know what your nurse friend thinks as if it's not an abscess and no other suggestions, I think perhaps a vet visit. But don't take that as the thing to do, as I say, I'm only pet animal knowledge not livestock.
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Thinking about it the pus was a dirty yellow with a little bit of brown, maybe that was a bit of blood in it.
I am going to see what my friend thinks over next couple of days and see if the swelling goes down a bit, stays the same or grows.
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One of my goats had an abscess under one side of her jaw/neck, after bathing it with warm/hot water, (after antibiotics) it burst, boy did it smell! but that was good, CLA apparently doesn't smell, and is thick and claggy).
Then I kept bathing it out with salt water solution.
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Don't get confused when buying animals that look like they've may have had an abcess on their neck, this could be a footvax injection site. This is usually always on older sheep not lambs and should be dry and well healed up.
CLA is lumpy and hard not to see as an abcess , plus it may be weeping.
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Am I in a different world to the rest of you. If my sheep had an abcess on it's jaw I would speak to the vet first. Fortunately mine is happy to give advice on the phone, visit if necessary and not charge very much if I take the sheep to them. Antibiotics should only be given prescribed by a vet, yes you can do the injections yourself but you need to know which anti biotic to give.
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Re: "antibiotics should only be given when perscribed by a vetenarian'. If I had to wait for the vet before giving antibiotics - Id have lost a whole lot more sheep than I have.
Scenario 1:
It is Saturday night and you have just discovered a ewe with mastitis. Do you wait for Monday to roll around or do you give her antibiotics in her udder?
Scenario 2:
A ewe is lethargic, breathless and has mucosa, you can catch her. Do you ring the vet and wait for them to call you back - even though this nescessitates going somewhere where you can get a signal, waiting for the vet to come back off rounds etc and then drive back to your sheep to see how she is or do you jag her with the Alamycin you have in your truck?
and so on.
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I agree with you SteveHants that antibiotics should be given as soon as possible when they are needed. If you know what you are dealing with and which antibiotic is appropriate, then give it, as speed is of the essence.
For those just starting out though, who have litttle animal husbandry knowledge and maybe don't carry a selection of medicines, the vets advice is important - it's just painful to see how long the wait can be before a vet can be contacted sometimes.
There is too the question of antibiotic resistance, which most people are now aware of. I am confident of when an antibiotic is needed, but others might be less sure and worry they will be creating more of a problem than they will be solving. It's great to have TAS handy for checking which is the most appropriate antibiotic, or other medicine, whilst waiting for the vet to return the call.
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Steve if you know which antibiotic to use for each problem and you have all the relevant antibiotics in stock that are still in date then I have no problem with you treating any of the above mentioned problems. You are an experienced sheep keeper. I hadn't thought of the mobile phone problem because we live on site and have a land line.
Thanks fleecewife, you seem to understand where I am coming from.
I am worried that some vets do not seem as accessable as ours.
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I deliberatley chose two scenarios where rapid administration of antibiotics would give the ewe a good chance of survival and delay would almost certainly lead to death. Most vets are happy to prescribe you bottles of antibiotics to keep in your meds cupboard. I was going to write that there are lots of useful books out there to help with your diagnosis, but to be honest that makes me seem a bit behind the times as there are plenty of useful sites on the internet.
I don't like to overuse antibiotics, and I dont use them in scenarios where people would give them as a matter of course (eg - assisted lambings; I only give them if it has been extended and traumatic, usually when I have had to have my hand in past the knuckles).
It might be daunting to people who are new to stock-keeping, but there will come a time in your stockman/womans career when you have to make the call, and the sooner that happens, the better you will feel about making decisions (especially if you save the animal). Vets are good for advice and mine are dead efficient at ringing back etc, but they still shut on a Sunday. This is one of the things that comes with stockeeping - your decisions are often life or death ones. On the flipside, nobody will blame you if the odd sheep dies, the hardest person on you when that happens is probably going to be yourself. It does happen though - when you take sheep on, theres no avoiding that at some point they WILL get out and some WILL die.
So, I aways have alamycin and often pen and strep in my cupboard. They get used rareley, but Id sooner they were there.
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I've noticed one of my ewes has a couple of very hard lumps on the side of her neck - I felt one after she'd been sheared last week and put it down to a possible injection site, but I didn't think at the time there were 2. However there are 2 now now - if there were on a human I would say they were fatty cysts and probably wouldn't be too concerned. I've read all the posts and wonder if I should put a needle in or leave them a while? I'll probably give the vet a call as well.
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Are they symmetrical. Ie could they be swollen lymph glands?
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The lumps are just a bit bigger than a 1p coin and both feel and look the same. They are next to eachother.
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Don't know then, lymph glands would be either side of the neck and jaw, in the same place.
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insect bite reactions?
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I wondered about insect bites... I think the best thing to do is just keep an eye on them over the next few days. Thanks for help and ideas.
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Sounds like lumpy jaw to me. I got it in a ewe last year, its more usually foubd in cattle. Nicks in the gums from thistles etc become infected and form hard lumps along the back of the jaw. Treatment is mild antibiotics over 4 days I think. Cant rember which antibiotic though. Good news is if its that, it isnt life threatening.
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The lumps are just a bit bigger than a 1p coin and both feel and look the same. They are next to eachother.
not been nipped by a dog?
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My Lamb's lump burst this morning and lots and lots of smelly creamy pus came out. I have drained it, it is still a bit swollen and there are 2 large holes in her now where it all came out.
I am bathing the area with salt water and she got an antibiotic shot, I think I will get some antispetic cream or spray to put on it tomorrow but at the moment she has a small patch on it to keep it clean for the night.
She looks lots better and is brighter altogether, she is even playing with the other lambs now which she has never done before :)
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Better out than in! I hope she recovers soon :bouquet:
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thats good, she'l feel alot better once it drains.
did we decide what it was? :wave: