The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: moprabbit on May 13, 2012, 09:44:37 am

Title: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: moprabbit on May 13, 2012, 09:44:37 am
I just wondered  if anyone could give me advice that I hope I don't need! I've just found a lamb that a friend is looking after, in the chicken run, eating the chicken food which is made up of layers pellets and some corn. I don't know how long he had been in there. I hope nothing happens but in case he starts to bloat I wondered what can I do? I 've read somewhere on the Forum about using vegetable oil, but I can't remember if that was for when sheep had eaten poisonous plants. He's about 11 weeks old and I remember the old saying 'Forewarned is forearmed' - so if there was a problem I might be able to deal with it. Thank you
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 13, 2012, 10:04:59 am
The trouble with chicken food is that it seems to be very tasty to sheep and goats and they eat too much of it.
Yes, that can cause bloat. What happens is the grain allows the wrong sort of rumen bacteria to thrive, producing gas, which froths up and can't escape. It also turns the contents too acid, which continues the problem. It can kill them.

Here is what to do:
Before you see any signs of bloat, give him some live yoghurt with a level teaspoon of baking soda mixed in. If he'll take it off a spoon so much the better, if not make it runny and syringe in about 40ml, making sure he swallows not inhales it! This may avert any problems.

If he does bloat, syringe in 40 ml (60-80 ml for an adult) of vegetable oil. Again, careful he swallows.
This reduces the froth and allows the gas to escape.

Then he needs to be on hay and water for a couple of days while his stomachs settle.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: tizaala on May 13, 2012, 10:27:53 am
Layer pellets are poisonous to most stock , Just hope he didn't eat too much,
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: moprabbit on May 13, 2012, 11:06:43 pm
Jaykay thanks for the advice which I have followed. All's well at the moment - hope the same applies in the morning!
Thank you!
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: moprabbit on May 14, 2012, 12:44:43 pm
Checked lamb this morning and all's well. Thanks again for the advice!
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 14, 2012, 06:04:14 pm
Phew  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: khajou on May 14, 2012, 11:16:53 pm
Why are layers pellets poisonous to most stock?

I know of several breeders of sheep that use turkey grower pellets to get the size into their lambs before the pedigree sales. :(
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 15, 2012, 07:21:25 am
I want to know too.

You often get told this. But when I asked the vet he said there was nothing 'poisonous' as such, just that stock ate too much of them, they find them very tasty, and then got bloat/acid problems. But then vets don't know everything (though my farm vet is good). So I can't work out if they are poisonous or bad-for-them-in-too-large-a-quantity, in the same way any grain is, which is different I think.

I wish I could find out for sure cos my skinny goat will eat layers pellets forever, but I only let her have a handful in case they really are poisonous  :-\ though she needs to fatten up.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Foobar on May 15, 2012, 11:34:01 am
I had it in my head that poultry feed could contain animal by-products, as chickens are omnivores.  And it was that that was no good for the sheep (which are obviously herbivores).
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 15, 2012, 11:59:13 am
Oh, I think that's right FB. And whilst I don't think actually uncontaminated animal products are a health issue, somehow it doesn't see right to feed sheep back to sheep does it? Also there's the risk of stuff like scrapie and BSE I suppose.
Yeh, so not poisonous, but bad for them in other ways.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: fleurky on May 15, 2012, 12:19:19 pm
Out of interest is it ok for dogs to eat layers pellets? Mine love them given half a chance =/
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Penninehillbilly on May 15, 2012, 01:14:13 pm
Maybe some makes of layers pellets will have drugs and additives in for more intensive systems?
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: doganjo on May 15, 2012, 01:24:18 pm
Out of interest is it ok for dogs to eat layers pellets? Mine love them given half a chance =/
Mine too, so I'd like to know too.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 15, 2012, 01:58:15 pm
Well, here are the ingredients for Farmgate, which is a common layers pellet.

Wheat, Wheatfeed, Calcium Carbonate, Sunflower Ext, Soya Bean Ext,
Oats, Vegetable Oils, Di Calcium Phosphate, Salt, Sodium Bicarbonate,
Methionine

Wheatfeed is apparently a by product of flour milling, so bran, seed coat and some flour.
Dicalcium phosphate is added to toothpaste, cereal, dog treats, enriched flour and so on, to add calcium.
Sodium bicarbonate is baking soda
Methionine is an amino acid found in pretty well all proteins we digest.

So I can't honestly see anything there that is harmful to either sheep, goats or dogs.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: fleurky on May 15, 2012, 02:29:30 pm
Blimey! You are good Jaykay! That has put my mind at rest.
So maybe they are not bad for sheep? I had no idea about this - my cade has been happily strolling into the chicken's stable and helping herself.  She's out in the field now so no more sneaky snacks. So much to learn!
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: doganjo on May 15, 2012, 02:37:41 pm
The bicarbonate might be a problem - too gaseous for some types of animal?   Maybe depends on the constitution of the pellets overall - the various percentages of the ingredients?
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on May 15, 2012, 03:03:03 pm
it would be interested to know the source of the methionine, and the calcium phosphate whether its animal/animal bone derived. I know that when we had animal health inspection, the thing they were strictest about was not allowing the chicken feed anywhere near the feed for cattle and sheep because of the potential for animal product contamination. They took samples of all the feeds to check for cross contamination and I then received a letter 'allowing' me to carry on feeding chicken pellets to chickens (!) .
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Foobar on May 15, 2012, 03:36:18 pm
ditto that - in my AH inspection they checked that the poultry feed was stored separately to the sheep feed.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 15, 2012, 03:59:14 pm
Yes, and in mine.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 15, 2012, 04:03:32 pm
Have sent Farmgate this email:

Hi, 
We were looking at the ingredients of your Farmgate layers pellets. Because of things we've all been told about layers pellets containing animal products and being bad for other animals if they get into them. 

Could you tell us (us being a group of smallholders)
1. What is the source of Dicalcium phosphate 
2. What is the source of the methionine

Thank you very much, J

Will see what we get back.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Mammyshaz on May 15, 2012, 08:30:30 pm
It's very interesting. Our hens get farmgate and pup is still learning what he is allowed often trying to steal a mouthful as he passes  ::)
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: moprabbit on May 15, 2012, 10:33:22 pm
Thank you for all the replies and interest that this post has generated! I'm learning all the time!!
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 16, 2012, 11:20:38 am
Quote
Thank you for your enquiry.  I can confirm non of our feeds are manufactured using any form of animal by products.

We source our Methionine from France and our Di Calcium Phosphate from Belgium.

Layers Pellets are recommended for feeding to Laying birds only and should not be left around for other animals or Poultry to gain access to.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: fleurky on May 16, 2012, 12:33:11 pm
Brilliant! Well done you! I don't suppose you could ask why the 'no other animals' bit? Cheeky, just wondered.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 16, 2012, 01:10:20 pm
I might... :)
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 16, 2012, 01:13:09 pm
"Thank you :-)
If it's only got those ingredients in though, why is it a problem for other animals do you know? That's what we always get told but we were trying to find out exactly what the issues were, as occasionally there are accidents and other animals do eat it. 
Thank you for any help, 
J"
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: lachlanandmarcus on May 16, 2012, 02:17:25 pm
Its funny that they misunderstood the q about the source of the ingredients, Belgium haa ha!! Or did they not want to answer the question which was all about understanding what source material they are using!

It does seem odd that they are saying dont let other animals near it, if its all so fine and veggie.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 16, 2012, 02:19:43 pm
And the answer I've had back so far is just a copy of the label. I'll attach it here but I don't think it helps much!

I know - Belgium  :D
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 16, 2012, 02:28:16 pm
Ok, I've got it as a PDF on my iPad - how do I attach it?

Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: fleurky on May 16, 2012, 02:31:34 pm
Ha! I bet they think you are some sort of animal activist! Well done for being proactive and getting that much - shame they either don't know the answer or are being evasive =).  Still, I'm much less worried about the puppy grabbing a handful.  The cades certainly had a liking for it too. 
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: jaykay on May 16, 2012, 02:39:12 pm
I wonder if the vitamin levels are the issue. Vitamin A and vitamin D3. Are they problems for certain animals?
I think D3 can be for dogs - some vague memory........?
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: fleurky on May 16, 2012, 02:53:06 pm
I did a google - found this - no answers though. 

Our chickens are fenced in a largish area with a flexible mesh fence. Yesterday afternoon, I discovered one of the dogs (a black lab who eats everything) in the fenced area.
He had polished off half of an Omlet "peanut" feeder of layers pellets.
He was bloated and unhappy.
So far he has been sick three times, and had extremely pungent copious diarrhoea five times.
Thank goodness we have tiled floors and no carpets.
I have no idea what is in layers pellets, but it disagrees badly with labradors.
We are starving him until this afternoon and then he'll be on boiled rice and yogurt for 24 hours to attempt to soothe and recolonise his gut.

Ewww.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: nic99 on May 16, 2012, 03:16:32 pm
My puppy got in to the feed shed one day and ate loads of farmgate layers pellets. We found her with her head in the bag, literally wolfing them down. No idea how much she managed to eat but my guess is a lot! She had no adverse reaction but the next day did several ENORMOUS foul smelling poos (inc. 2 on the carpet  ::)). You wouldn't have thought that much poo could fit inside a dog! It was disgusting but pretty incredible.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Bramblecot on May 16, 2012, 06:04:50 pm
Yesterday afternoon, I discovered one of the dogs (a black lab who eats everything) in the fenced area.
He had polished off half of an Omlet "peanut" feeder of layers pellets.
He was bloated and unhappy.
So far he has been sick three times, and had extremely pungent copious diarrhoea five times.
Thank goodness we have tiled floors and no carpets.

Ewww.
Ah ha!  The black lab dustbin syndrome  ;D ;D.  My black lab has started laying eggs, do you thnk this could be a side effect? :o :o
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Penninehillbilly on May 17, 2012, 05:16:17 pm
I know this isn't related to the 'Farmgate' line, but came across an old (empty!) sack which says - 'contains fishmeal - not to be fed to ruminants'.

Farmgate - I wonder what the 'digestabilty enhancers' and the 'ezymes' are?

I think they are being evasive, you asked 'what', not 'where'.
Title: Re: Lamb eating chicken food and corn
Post by: Polished Arrow on May 27, 2012, 07:32:01 pm
It's funny how the creature least impressed by layers' pellets are... chickens  :D
It sure is a funny old world!