The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: henchard on April 06, 2012, 07:02:36 pm
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Having started off thinking about a Pole Barn I've decided to try and build something that looks a tad better. So having roughed something out on 'the back of an envelope'. I've posted the first stage of construction on our blog (this weekend) as we start the foundations.
http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/work-on-the-smallholding/building-a-pole-barn-part-1/ (http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/work-on-the-smallholding/building-a-pole-barn-part-1/)
I hope to post more details as we go along and some more detailed plans once I know that it is working out ok! Hopefully, it may eventually prove useful to someone.
Over a year later the project is finished and we ended up with this barn which we built completely by ourselves for around £2000. It changed from a Pole Barn to a cut frame as we went along and it's all detailed in the blog.
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/shed1.jpg)
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your concrete piers or columns would be better with re bar in them or wire cages made from sheets of wire mesh the proper stuff for concrete slabs the concrete has to be pokered in to max the strength of the concrete
the contact point betwean the concrete and timber is going to rot or be the weak point
did you concider a steel structure :farmer:
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I do mention in the blog that if I was using a steel frame I'd put some steel reinforcement in the concrete. However, I decided against a steel frame for DIY construction.
These foundations will be more than adequate for what is in effect a glorified garden shed!
The timber will be tanalised (in fact I may even let the ends soak in creosote) and will sit on a dpm.
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it will be surprising what weight is in your shed then the addition of snow as well building regs are changing for agri sheds more stringent as a result of sheds collapsing because of the snow loading
better over enginered before the build than trying to modify after
pokering the concrete does improve the strength and durability of the base even a slab floor is far better pokered in than just poured and screed ed
steel is better than wood for diy
your plans are a bit more than a garden shed :farmer:
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Maybe deserves a spot on Grand Shed Designs! ;)
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in the blog it says 150mm, did you mean 1500mm?
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sorry, take that back , reread and reread, 150mm pad for the concrete pillar with 150mm showing above ground. bloody hell, that is some shed. i would agree with robert, the contact point between timber and concrete will (eventually) rot. might be worth further investigation
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that is the depth of the blinding to give a solid even surface to stike the columns from
another quire what is the wind loading going to be it will have to be anchored some way not just placed there on the stilts :farmer:
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building regs are changing for agri sheds more stringent
Agricultural sheds are generally exempt from building regs.
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Under certain circs they are exempt, but not from public liability. If it falls on someone it's your neck. If you build it to regs you have a good defence.
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the contact point betwean the concrete and timber is going to rot or be the weak point
Yes, that's what happened to ours, and that was with old telegraph poles being used as the uprights (i.e. WELL treated wood). That said, it had probably been standing for 30 years, and it was a relatively easy job to jack up the roof and replace the poles with new ones when we did it this summer.
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Under certain circs they are exempt, but not from public liability. If it falls on someone it's your neck. If you build it to regs you have a good defence.
Not quite sure what to make of this statement. If Building Regs don't apply; they don't apply end of story. Most peoples' houses here don't comply with current Building Regs and they seem quite happy to live in them despite the fact that timbers may be well under spec to current regs.; so I'm not exactly too concerned about my own barn, in my own field miles from my nearest neighbour!
The reason for the post was to show people a diary of construction. In particular building a useful barn that will be fairly inexpensive and that doesn't look like something from a third world refugee camp. In the blog I have stated that there are a few things I'm making up as I go along.
As for construction (I'm fairly knowledgeable about things) the project is 'belt and braces' construction. In the main fairly over engineered.
As I look around the countryside I see all sorts of shambolic constructions from traditional pole barns with sagging roofs to the horsey encampments that seem to spring up in some areas. Most of these now look like refugee camps, with pallets everywhere, visqueen hay stores, old baths and sinks strewn everywhere, and ramshackle huts and old lorry bodies as stables and electric fence tape tied everywhere.
I'm building on concrete foundations that go down in places to nearly 2m and will be using substantial timbers for columns etc.. and all people can do is mutter about Building Regulations and public liability. I suggest that perhaps those people may wish to get a structural engineer in to calculate that every aspect of their life is meeting earthquake proof standards; has everyone calculated the wind loading on their garden fence to obviate risk to passing pedestrians?
Have you seen what some of the timber stables and field shelters being sold on the internet are made of (not much more than matchwood in some cases)? Most of these are just plonked at best on a 4-6" concrete slab (not 2m deep foundations with nearly a meter square footprint at the bottom!) and at worst just put on bare soil or paving slabs.
So if anyone is interested in seeing progress I'll add to the blog as we go along. If anyone has useful suggestions I'm happy to receive them but please don't start bleating on about public liability, elf and safety and 'what if we have a a once in 500 year weather event' as this type of negativity really bugs the hell out of me.
That said, it had probably been standing for 30 years, and it was a relatively easy job to jack up the roof and replace the poles with new ones when we did it this summer.
In 30 years I'll probably be dead but if I have to arrange to replace a couple of timber columns so be it!
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this posting has the makings of another good ding dong
i built two pole barns almost 30 years ago did not involve planning or structural engineers all the work was done with myself and Lillian it was electric poles i used they are still standing today even with the snow loading that we had two winters ago when steel structures buckled under the loading
it is your shed you build it the way you want to but why ask for comments or post what you are doing and then deride those perfectly valid comments
henchard is wrong in his statement building regs do apply to agric sheds try claiming insurance for a shed that does not comply with building regulations they are changing shortly to industrial spec if having them erected or supplying a kit
and it was not a once in 500 year weather event
water supplies have to be a certain depth to prevent freezing that only changed in the early sixty's because whole community's were without water now it is accepted practise
wind loading is another aspect that instead of being rare is now more commonplace
your timber uprights are they down the 2 meters and encased in concrete or just sitting on the concrete plinth above ground :farmer:
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Henchard - good telegraph poles take some beating for what you require - and about the best source of good long timber to give you plenty of height. Are you cladding it around - it is amazing how much strength (bracing) the sheeting has when screwed on. Best of luck - crack on, use your loaf and you will have the shed up whilst those around are still debating whether it complies with the latest reg on heat loss or whatever - probably still be standing long after we are all gone! Cant count he number of sheds over 100 years old I have seen where steel bracing or a concrete surround has been built around the bottom of a wooden post that has rotted through but shed still perfectly serviceable.
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Have just taken time to look at your blog and now realise that your timber pillars are resting on concrete plinths so cant see an issue - yearly coat of bitumen around the bottom? (the timber pillar not yours).
I like the blog - lovely area - used to spend far too much time in the White Hart at Llandeilo when Fred was in charge and the rest of my time next door with Ieuan Evans and his family (farm machinery dealers).
Having read some of your posts (especially B&Q), I think they may have picked on the wrong bloke to be pedantic about your design - had a good laugh ;D
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Hi Henchard. This is the first time I have looked at this thread and I am certainly interested in following your construction blog. We have started a similar project, using a dozen hefty telegraph poles sunk deep into concrete dollies. Our ground is rock to within inches of the surface, so digging out the holes was a labour of - if not love then madness ;D. Our progress is slow because of health and weather interruptions, but we have done all the uprights and 5 of the 11 giant roof trusses. I will be interested to see how your roof and cladding goes.
I am glad though that I haven't posted about our project before in view of some of the negative comments you have drawn. Keep up the blog and the work. :thumbsup:
What are the intended dimensions of your barn?
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If you fancy a holliday from your barn building you could come over to me in Germany and help re-do mine!!!!!!!
Its a very old timber framed barn. The posts just sit on granite blocks...or on a low granite wall. A new bit was added in the communist era and the main frame was just hacked into to accomodate it. The roof of the 'T shaped' extension has fallen in exposing a huge hole in the roof on the prevailing weather side. It looks really bad and about to fall in BUT has stood there through its second winter slowly decaying loosing the odd tile and one end sagging a bit more.
Going by another bit that we pulled dow that had a shallow bittumen roof (with huge hole) It will take alot of dissmantling....but then again I might just go out one morning and find it in a heap! (doubt it though)
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Wow that is quite a project - the footings are pretty serious. It made me examine our wood store/hangar.
I use the hangar to split and store a serious amount of wood and we keep gardening tools, an old cart, a wood burning cooker ( to heat water to scald dead birds), and a big 4x4 car under it.
Sorry but I can not find my camera - but will post a photo when I do.
- it measures 12 meters by 9 meters and there are 3 rows of 3 vertical poles that amazingly just stand on 2 - 3 feet high concrete cones. these poles are in rows 7 and 5 meters apart with the middle row supporting timbers that must be over 8 meters high. These 3 centre poles are fixed onto the concrete feet with metal braces but the other 6 just stand on the concrete cones rather than set in. The timbers are all pinned together with wooden pegs and the roof and just 2 sides are clad in corrugated sheets. These sheets extend down to about 3 feet from the floor so wind can blow thru and dry the wood. We may make an outside kitchen on the open side of the hangar that borders the garden.
I must confess that until I read your blog and saw the footings I had never examined ours. I am amazed that our poles are not set in concrete but I guess that the interlocking structure between the 9 poles is sufficient to give rigidity.
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You probably only get a structural problem MAK when you try to make them fully enclosed. Wind loading then magnifies considerably. Most of the barns I've seen in France are simple timbers onto concrete plinths or onto big stone boulders. Much better than having timber in contact with the ground.
I like 'over-engineered' and also 'very simple construction'.
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Hi Henchard and all.
Found a photo of the hangar that I described above ( minus the car that slotted between the wood.
Hope you cn see the 7 meter or so span and how the posts stand on concrete cones. The smaller span is to the left and is not so tall.
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Part 2 is now online
http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/work-on-the-smallholding/building-a-pole-barn-part-2/ (http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/work-on-the-smallholding/building-a-pole-barn-part-2/)
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not to bad (and that is praise coming from me) have you anchored the columns to the footings did you concider hiring a vibrating poker to eliminate the honeycombing and make the column more resilient to decay
was there much difference in the cost of wood over shuttering ply your shutters will have to be scraped of the previous concrete and re oiled an other alternative is lining the shutter with polythene this gives a glass like Finnish to the concrete even with a stick poker
i have always had an interest in buildings and how they were constructed the secondary school i attended was a new build concrete one that you could see the marks of the shutters viable in later life i worked with Balfour beattie on a project that had cast concrete columns using steel shutters to make the Finnish that it just required painting did you concider putting a chamfer on the top of the column very easy to do and takes the sharp edge away :farmer:
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Such a smart job and lots of thought - were you a builder John?
Will keep watching your progress then invite you over to convert a barn I have into a chalet for family - I need a raised terrace to make that will have access from the barn, raised 6 feet or so and give views across the fields. Need footings !
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After quite a delay (actually best part of a year) with other projects going on we have now moved on to start constructing the frame of our barn.
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/DSF1233.jpg)
More photos and details here.
http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/building-a-pole-barn-part-3/ (http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/building-a-pole-barn-part-3/)
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Part 4 Fixing the roof is now online here
http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/building-a-pole-barn-part-4/ (http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/building-a-pole-barn-part-4/)
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/shed1.jpg)
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awesome
do you have some rough figures for what it will have cost you for all the materials etc.
i think it would be useful info for others to be aware of for planning bigger projects...
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do you have some rough figures for what it will have cost you for all the materials etc.
i think it would be useful info for others to be aware of for planning bigger projects...
Around £1500 to £2000 for a 12m x 5m barn (which isn't a lot more than some flimsy garden sheds in B&Q); I don't know exactly because I don't know how much the external wood cladding is going to cost.
I suspect that this figure could be reduced by a third to a half if you carefully sourced second hand materials such as used roofing sheets. It would have cost very little more to make it higher but for the reasons stated I'm trying to keep it hidden in the landscape.
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thank you
having numbers for these things is always useful!!!
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Just a quick thought Henchard, we clad our woodstore with wooden sarking, which then dried out and shrank quite considerably over the next 8 months or so. For example, where we had butted up the planks next to each other, there is now a 3mm ish gap between them. Now that's actually a good thing in our case, but perhaps not in yours? Worth bearing in mind at least.....
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Just a quick thought Henchard, we clad our woodstore with wooden sarking, which then dried out and shrank quite considerably over the next 8 months or so. For example, where we had butted up the planks next to each other, there is now a 3mm ish gap between them. Now that's actually a good thing in our case, but perhaps not in yours? Worth bearing in mind at least.....
I'm cladding it with vertical boards with 20mm gaps between (like you see on many agricultural sheds) to allow air circulation.
Just been up to see my man at the sawmill who is cutting them for more (I ordered them a month or 6 weeks ago). The conversation went:
Me: 'Any sign of my timber yet?'
Him: 'It's still in the wood, bach'
Such is the pace of life here in rural Wales.
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Our completely self built barn project is now finished.
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/shed1.jpg)
Final part of the blog here
http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/building-a-pole-barn-part-5/ (http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/building-a-pole-barn-part-5/)
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It's really, really beautiful! In that William Morris beautiful and useful combo kind of way. Im deeply impressed! You don't want to come to Aberdeenshire and build another do you :-DDD
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Great stuff and with that view I would be tempted to put a kettle,teapot and table and chairs in there .
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Well done, this looks really good!
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I look forward to the opening ceremony wiv all us Carmarthenshire smallholders!!