The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Bangbang on April 03, 2012, 09:35:55 pm
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There have been a lot of posts recently about electric fencing.
I began to wondering that with today's technology if the process is the
right way round.
What about putting an electric collar / anklet onto the animal.
So when it approaches a sensor it gives off an acoustic warning - then a small electrical shock.
The sensor wire could be buried like the system used on trolley locks in supermarkets.
I think the animal (pig or sheep) would soon respond to the 'sound' alarm hence so
it wouldn't get a shock.
With today's battery technology I am sure this could be accomplished.
No more fencing or repairs etc animals hurt in fencing.....
So where are the problems going to be with this concept?
Has it been tried before?
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This exists for pets. It's used alot in the states where people don't have fences in their gardens.
It's not a good idea as the animal has to test the boundries several times before working out where they can't go. Would not be able to be used for strip grazing or moving pens around a field. With a fence the animal knows the fence gives the shock and stays away from anything that looks like it. With a collar a plane or car may pass near by or something else like aloud noise and then the animal gets shocked- it may well associate it with the shock, not the boundary. It's bad animal welfare really. Imagin your sheep in a field with a collar on, you spook them they run to the boundary, they get shocked- chances of ever catching them again?
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good points...my intentions are not to cause stress or suffering
but what stops them running into an electric fence when spooked?
Do animals not learn bounderies - seen or unseen ?
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still use a fence, but with sensors on the fence to trigger the shock, the animal just carries the battery, blinding idea m8
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if an animal is spooked or chased it will take all in front of it breaking legs and ripping flesh in the process :farmer:
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My idea is to create a virtual electric fence so no animals get tangled etc.
When you touch an electric fence do you not automatically pull away from it - not into it.
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My rescue spaniel was "trained" with an electric collar before being abandoned. He's scared of the horses, the sheep, the chickens and his own shadow. Nasty things - very easy to misuse.
The dog versions cost £20-25 each which doesn't sound like a cheap solution given what my sheep do with their tags. If it works it could also create invisible boundaries on the land which would make flexible grazing rather difficult, or indeed just moving them around.
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My idea is not designed around these pet collars...we don't want to train
sheep to keep away from horses etc..just to stay in there allocated areas.
The hyperthetical cable does not have to be buried - just chew proof!
so you can move it around
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If I'm not mistaken the dog version of this kind of thing has been made illegal here in Wales. Rightly so too.
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Sheep does not wear collar touches electric fence shock!
Sheep wears collar / anklet goes near boundery wire shock!
whats the difference?
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The difference is the animal can't see whats causing the pain.
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If you read my initial post, the animal is given an audible signal as he approaches
the shock point.
Remember my ' mad idea ' I posted is so that we can all apply our minds to it as to
come up with a possible solution to help the fencing problem and animal welfare.
I posted an idea not a solution - all heads working together we might achieve one
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I understand that. Since the precedent with dog training exists one has to look at it though, and some of the collars do just what you suggest by creating a warning before a shock. However all such devices say that a training process needs to be gone through with each dog and it is hard to see how to achieve that with any numbers of sheep or pigs.
My concern is that my ESS is severely traumatised. He has a lot of behavioural problems - he proceeds in a series of anticlockwise circles rather than in a straight line, and if anything unexpected happens he withdraws and closes down. He entirely lacks aggression, never barks or growls and is very friendly to all dogs, people and children. But outside his limited comfort zone he stops coping and freezes.
There is an established welfare case against the canine variety so I'm struggling to see what could be done with a farm animal version where individual training and monitoring would be necessarily much lower for animals we don't normally train.
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With respect, Small Farmer, your dog has been mistrained, as I think you mentioned earlier. That dog has been maltreated. No place for using an e-collar in that way.
That is a different type of collar form what is being mooted by Bangbang. However, I also know that something similar to what he suggests was used by friends of mine, Pete and Margaret, some years ago(1990s) for both sheep and dogs, when they bought their farm to build up a quarantine business.
Their yard was unfenced when they moved in and needed some protection for their dogs. Pete bought a roll of cable, buried it in a circle around the yard under the grass, and placed a few fence posts along the line with a single wire between them to indicate where the fence was. The two dogs had sensors attached to their collars which gave out a loud warning noise (no shock) when they went near the 'invisible' fence. They learned very quickly to stay away from it, even without the collars on, and he even took the post and wire fence down.
He then bought some Jacob sheep and decided to 'strip' graze them using the same method. And it worked using the lead male and lead female
What impressed me was that when they got some more dogs they didn't need to move the cable back to the yard or put sensors on the new dogs - they seemed to learn from the original two setters to stay at least a yard away from the edge of the grass where the buried cable had been - even when friends came to visit.
What I found even more impressive was that the Jacobs learnt to recall to Pete's piercing whistle. ::) One whistle adn they came running! ;D Never knew a man quite like him. :'(
And yes, I think they may have been banned in Wales but not yet in England or Scotland, not sure about Northern Ireland.
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Pigs are just as likely to run forwards as backwards when alarmed, how are you supposed to make the contact with a sheep ? keep them shaved?. dogs have had severe burns from these devices, well documented. you must have witnessed a startled animal trying to run through a fence, an electric shock will drive them in any direction. So no, it isn't a mad idea, it's a bloody stupid one, it's right up there with the diesel engined wedding cake.
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in theory this is a good idea but in practise it is domed to failure
it also has the makings of a good debate
any animal is unpredictable when given a shock fright or startled cattle and pigs tend to go forward in these situations dogs run for there comfort zone if a dog is lose in a cattle field and the dog gets chased by the cattle the dog runs to its master (comfort zone) that is how people get trampled
if this idea were to be manufactured i can see it being sold but it sure ain't going to do away with fences walls or dykes :farmer:
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An invisible fence is a pretty dumb idea, I can't be bothered to explain to why, work it out. Sheep are hardly the brightest animals on earth and steers are certainly not the friendliest, especially when they get the hump or see some innocent walker with a bucket in his hand Think about it ::)
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does the fence have to be invisible?
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Traditional fencing would still be needed - but I have read a lot on here about sheep rubbing on fencing, butting fencing (our Jacob ram did a lot of damage to brand new fencing etc and therefore people putting electric fencing 4 lines for sheep on the inside of this - but this is not recommended for horned sheep (I believe so we have some leaning fencing) so as a deterant it seems possible but a collar would probably not work on woolly breeds and an anklet may not stay on - how about the technology incorporated as part of their existing electronic ear tag!!
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An invisible fence is a pretty dumb idea, I can't be bothered to explain to why, work it out. Sheep are hardly the brightest animals on earth and steers are certainly not the friendliest, especially when they get the hump or see some innocent walker with a bucket in his hand Think about it ::)
Please do take the time to explain! If you have kept sheep for a fair time you will know that they are far from stupid but are easily panicked. Steers are usually docile and it's not often you see a walker carrying a bucket!!!!
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try reading through all the posts before typing - make you look less of an idiot everytime you talk to me.
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your out of order smalltime. thats not necessary.
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Bangbang,
I definitely think the idea has merits, although I am a complete novice so don't take my word for it.
The issue I have is them getting their collar/anklet caught up.
I previously had a cat who wore a collar and somehow she got one of her front legs right through the collar. She was stuck somewhere for 4 days. By the time she crawled home the collar had 'eaten' into her armpit. The resulting vets bill was in excess of £500.
Sally
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your out of order smalltime. thats not necessary.
You dont know the half of it. Bored of being needled. Do one.
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i agree, maybe u should. debate is one thing, being down right rude is another
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I have better things to fo than relate a load of quotes. have a read.
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i have, obviously seeing as i was the 3rd poster on here. no one makes you post. still no reason to be rude. as you have better things to do, go do them.
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Guys, please!
If I understand the OP, you're suggesting the sheep carries the shocker device, yes? With a visible or invisible fence.
To be frank it churns my stomach. But that aside, my thoughts:
It's harder to change a battery on each sheep than to haul across one car battery every so often (conventional electric fence).
How would you check the battery life on every animal?
The sheep will be more prone to losing the collar/anklet/losing connection/battery draining etc.
If fence is invisible, they lose a valuable cue as to where they should/shouldn't be...sheep being mainly a "visual" animal this isn't fair. If you were training *blind* animals, then audible cues would be better. So if you were to move the invisible fence, how would they know?? If they have been trained correctly then they would effectively be hefted to that first pasture.
The shock could become associated with all sorts - like with the dog examples.
If an electric fence short circuits or goes faulty, you get scorched grass and loose stock. If a collar shorts you get a horrendously painful experience for the poor critter, if not death.
I'm out...
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Smalltime, you are dam right rude and way out of line and if I wanted to hear an arsehole rant I would have FARTED. Grow up and do not belittle users on this forum.
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I have had many a chat on an American sheepdog forum I used to be on and the e fence is very popular and for some very effective.
There are 2 major downside as far as I can recall.
1.) Often when the animal receives it's first shock, it bolts through the boundary and is then unwilling to recross it.
2.) If the animals do learn to respect it, it can leave them to the mercy of predators as they can pass back and forth with no trouble at all, though admittedly we don't have a coyote issue here.
Personally I would always have some kind of physical barrier to at least ward off dogs etc coming IN.
Hope this helps :D
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I posted this 'mad idea' as a stimulus for people to put there heads 'together' not bicker.
In a faint hope that someone smart might come up with a solution to 'electric fencing'.
With technology today there must be a solution! The electric fence was invented in 1936
and all that has changed since then is well NOTHING...
I don't have funding or resources to persevere alternative ideas, but posing the question might reach
someone with a level head who can.
I'd like to thank you all for your contributions to this discussion.
Who knows maybe someone who didn't post has read it and thought....
I know - there is a way that doesn't involve shocking or.......
BB
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So I would ask what is wrong with electric fencing? Simple is best ;)
I can see it going solar powered, and vegetation causing short circuits is a nuisance...
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I thought electric fences weren't advised with horned sheep - if that's not the case please let me know...
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You could use strips, NOT netting, but you risk that the shock won't be strong enough if it just catches the horns
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Fences are to designate an area of land and to keep stock in or out as the case may be.
Electric anything to control an animal is about as low as a human can get. Personally I'd like to fit electric collars on the testicles or tits of any owner using them on a dog and turn them full on until the battery runs down.
Whats wrong with good old fashion post and wire, correctly put up it will last years. It's not the next step in fence evolution it's just another bad idea.
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i knew this had the makings of a good old ding dong go get em floyd :farmer:
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Here in Wales any sort of collar that may be able to give an electic shock if set in that mode or adapted to it is now illegal be that for cats, dogs or stock it was brought to law by massive pressure from many animal welfare concern groups and met no opposition from the occupants of " The onion house " when they debated and passed the law.
The RSPCA type orgs also take a very dim view and a robustly strong line against electrocuting an animal into compliance and are happy to prosecute those who use them under the cruelty to animals legislation .
Me .... I'm not so squeamish and think in certain circumstances it may well be a sensible thing to use to bring an animal under control if it is done under supervision , but I'm not sure it would be the most effective solution for stock even if it was just an animal audible sound sent by radio/ infra read triggers etc. .
One thing that may surface in the future for cheap invisable stock containment are the directed ultra sound / micro waves that make things hot currently being used/ tested for crowd control rather than possibly leathal stun grenades & rubber bullets etc.
I saw a guy on a sky discovery weapons prog have to leg it away from a test dummy to a determined direction when exposed to a sound beam from over 200 mtrs away . Apparently they have been used in Iraq and Afghanistan to break up violent crowds & keep them apart .
This new battle field weapon may well be a fence for the future
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did electric shock treatment work with humans :o :farmer:
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It appears so when used on old Sparky for most of the time . ;)
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old sparkies have curly hair high voltage cable joiners the current affects them i was referring to the mentel health act where electricity was used to subdue the patient without there consent the ones throwing the switch should have been connected to the juice by there genitalia :farmer:
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I've read about some of the late Victorian / early Edwardian experiments along those lines .. scary stuff indeed done by even scarier so called experts of the mind. It was called aversion theraphy or some name similar .
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it was still caried on in the 70s and 80s :farmer:
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Worth the discussion certainly and some interesting if not obvious points raised.
My two penneth would be to add that sheep will go out of their way to kill themselves without us arming them with an anklet or necklace to help them.
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did electric shock treatment work with humans :o :farmer:
It made my aunt very simple minded. She became a 'poor soul' after it was done. The story we were handed down was that she had become hysterical after losing her baby at 3 weeks and her husband running off and divorcing her so they put electrodes on her and ruined her brain.
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i was told a story of a gundog trained with an electric collar it ended up much like the residents in the asylums
i also know of somebody that had baby blues they ended up getting the shock treatment on a regular basis and left her in the same state as Annie's aunt
maybe this is why i question authority and think beyond the box and do my own thing :farmer:
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Coming to this a bit late but it looks like a hacker posing as small time on previous threads. Note - guest status and no previous posts
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One thing that may surface in the future for cheap invisable stock containment are the directed ultra sound / micro waves that make things hot currently being used/ tested for crowd control rather than possibly leathal stun grenades & rubber bullets etc.
I saw a guy on a sky discovery weapons prog have to leg it away from a test dummy to a determined direction when exposed to a sound beam from over 200 mtrs away . Apparently they have been used in Iraq and Afghanistan to break up violent crowds & keep them apart .
This new battle field weapon may well be a fence for the future
That sound interesting - we had new stock fencing (at large cost) as animal safety was and is my top concern but after the damage the Jacob ram did to one section I would like to know of a sensible way to now protect the fencing - saying that the ram has moved to a new flock but the billy goat can give a post a good bash so I don't see sections of our fencing lasting more than a couple of years!!
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Coming to this a bit late but it looks like a hacker posing as small time on previous threads. Note - guest status and no previous posts
sq, he changed to guest after i told him to sod off.
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suziequeue possible Dan removed him this happened before when i was banned and the other party down to guest status and his history wiped
bruckly you need longer stobs driven into the ground another alternative is high tensile fencing that will catapult your ram back into the field maybe just maybe you were fleeced by the fencer :farmer:
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I reported him to Dan immediately I saw that insulting post. I suspect he may have sent him a message to behave.
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Oh right.......sorry
I like the mental cartoon I have of naughty butty ram being catapulted from trampoline fence.
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ECT (in people) can sometimes work, as a last ditch effort and for reasons/causes as yet unknown. I believe it may still be available very occasional as almost a "kill or cure" treatment :-\
What if the sheep with the e-collar went for a swim....? :o
I do see a use for standard electric fencing for temporary, supervised use e.g. strip grazing in an otherwise enclosed paddock, but I wouldn't rely on it as a lone/permanent boundary.
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Sticking my head above the parapet now.......
I have worked in an inpatient psychiatric facility and delivered ECT. Like Yorkshire Lass said - we used it for severe cases of intractable depression where other treatments had failed or life was at stake. It was not a decision that was undertaken at all lightly even then (early 90s) and the patient was required to sign a consent form if deemed mentally capable of doing so or a legal guardian/opinion was sought (I forget the exact machinations if the patient was deemed mentally incapable).
It was delivered under a short, light general anaesthetic in an operating theatre with full resuscitation facilities and most patients made a very rapid improvement - far quicker than conventional antidepressant therapies available at the time.
These days I think these sort of cases are becoming rarer due to improved detection and treatment (both drug and talking treatments) but we certainly had some patients who would insist on ECT as it was the only thing that worked for them.
One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest was and remains an important landmark film in illustrating the power struggles that go on in inpatient psychiatric facilities both then and now - but its depiction of ECT does not concord with the way the treatment was delivered in my experience in UK at that time.
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Try doing an dressage test on a horse that is used to the white electric tape. As the arena is marked out with white riding into corners gets marked down by the judge as horse bends away from the corner and not the bend round. They get very tense.
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I looked into the 'invisible fence' idea when I started keeping goats again, it was used succesfully in america, collaring a few members of the herd, to clear scrub land.
I planned on using it to back (front) up sheep netting, I wouldn't use it AS an invisible fence, it wouldn't be fair if they weren't sure of the boundary. but the advance warning bleep as they got say 2-3 metres from the fence should have been enough after a few attempts. the 'shock' can be adjusted, as can the distance warning. I planned to run it along the fence posts rather than bury, then I would still be able to move it. I ended up going for a normal electric fence.
Seeing and hearing my goats cry and run when they first touch the 'standard' electric fence was heartbreaking, but it had to be done for their own sakes, or they would have to be tethered (one was cheap because they couldn't keep her in).
This is goats, don't know about sheep, or pigs, but the 'unit' on the collar looked quite clumsy.
I think the abusive 'guest' just came in to stir us up, we should ignore such idiots, they thrive on upsetting genuine people :(
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Well, I am sorry Bangbang, I tried not to make my post offensive. It was the "I can't be bothered to explain" etc. that I found patronising. Plus a slight on animals intelligence. My sheep are so bright that when a friend brought a Springer pup into the field next to them they ran to me and hid behind me.
Thank you,Dave for your support and I'm sorry you were blasted and Lill, I will remember that remark :o ;D ;D
Also, sorry to Dan and Rosemary, I'll try to bite my tongue in future :-* :-*
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Sylvia smalltime was a poster before he was reduced to a guest
i am with you on the cant be bothered to explain and the dumb aspect
if we don't contribute or comment when something is wrong it all becomes very boring :farmer:
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Well, I am sorry Bangbang, I tried not to make my post offensive. It was the "I can't be bothered to explain" etc. that I found patronising. Plus a slight on animals intelligence. My sheep are so bright that when a friend brought a Springer pup into the field next to them they ran to me and hid behind me.
Thank you,Dave for your support and I'm sorry you were blasted and Lill, I will remember that remark :o ;D ;D
Also, sorry to Dan and Rosemary, I'll try to bite my tongue in future :-* :-*
Sylvia, you have nothing to apologise. I'm sure we were all shocked at st's rudeness.
Annie, well done for reporting it so quickly.
As to the ECT, a friend of mine has had it in the last few years and said it helped her no end.
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Well, I am sorry Bangbang, I tried not to make my post offensive. It was the "I can't be bothered to explain" etc. that I found patronising. Plus a slight on animals intelligence. My sheep are so bright that when a friend brought a Springer pup into the field next to them they ran to me and hid behind me.
Thank you,Dave for your support and I'm sorry you were blasted and Lill, I will remember that remark :o ;D ;D
Also, sorry to Dan and Rosemary, I'll try to bite my tongue in future :-* :-*
I'm confused. Is Smalltime now Sylvia???
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No, dear, I'm still me ;D I was aplogising for rising to smalltime's bait and dragging other's into the flak!
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oh - right - sorry :)
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I reported Smalltime quickly because I see this as a very friendly forum, and wouldn't want it to be compromised by small minds. I have been accused in the past of being a 'holier than thou' and someone left apparently because of something I said (twice as I recall) then came back both times. I am a wysiwyg, speak my mind, speak what seems to be the truth to me, but would NEVER insult or demean such as ST did, so If I step out of line I would hope someone would tell me immediately, as I STILL don't know what I did wrong on those occasions other than saying it as it is.
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somewhere in another posting someone has a sheep which jumps any fences, maybe ths is a solution to that particular problem if the sheep is worth it, it would stop it before it got to the fence, as in the Rams and Billies that hammer the fences?
used wisely and as necessary I think it could be useful, but not as control for say a whole flock?
(Do I duck behind the wall now? :)
Quote from: suziequeue on April 05, 2012, 07:06:11 AM
sq, he changed to guest after i told him to sod off.
I think this has been a good debate, but is/was smalltime a member if it was changed to guest ?
so surprising to see that sort of thing in here :(
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Quote from: suziequeue on April 05, 2012, 07:06:11 AM
sq, he changed to guest after i told him to sod off.
I think this has been a good debate, but is/was smalltime a member if it was changed to guest ?
If you choose to leave the forum and delete your account your posts remain, but your membership status is changed to 'Guest'. No-one can post without a valid account. :)
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I had a chat about this subject to my son, as he is involved with stuff like this, very technical and way above my head.
His views were that it can be done without pain and using satellite and colliers and noise.
I've asked him to give it some thought and he recons you can bring sheep down off the hills without having to go up and fetch them with slight adaptations and know exactly where they are at any time without going away from you PC or laptop/ipad.
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That was on a countryside TV prog a couple of months ago .
They said it is in the trial situation at present but even then several people had formed a queue to get hold of it and experiment.
One company modified things so as to use a UAV to spot the animals then guide the dog to them .
Now you can get a civil version of GPS down to a one metre square location that could be a very very interesting development on big places especially if you can make the sounds like crunching turnip noises etc. ;).
But like has been said already a decent fence is a two way device it keeps thing out as well as keeping them in ..would a randy ram stop at a noise when he can smell 40 new ewes .
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" ..would a randy ram stop at a noise when he can smell 40 new ewes .? "
Don't know about the ram , but I have a Welsh neighbour........
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I think you would need something like Ian Durey and the blockheads to subdue a randy Welshman.
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My uncle was a randy welsh man...no stopping him!
Joking apart, I read through all of this and was reminded just how bigoted some people can be, I stopped posting or asking questions when I was often shot down or saw others shot down for having their opinions.
A good debate or argument is fine and healthy, people who stomp about because they are not of the same opinion are not changing others opinions just stopping others posting their views or questions!!!
So reminds me of my first year at Uni on a Youth and Community course.....first few weeks we all said what we felt and op ions were aired and we began to see others views, then as the course went on, people stopped saying anything they were thinking for fear of being shot down, the people still had their same opinions but then less lightly to change them as they then kept them to themselves!!!!!
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the chance of getting the leg over nothing will stop you in your quest the stories i could tell not of me of others in there quest :D :farmer:
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Robert, I always knew my uncle was a lady's man but since learnt a lot more...he was a very dark handsome man with a lot of charm and lived off his wits but his main aime was to bonk the whole female population, and his son, also with film star looks, used to have women on Abersoch Beach waiting for him to take them out to sea in his boat and "sort them out" I am back in contact with his daughter, my cousin who was brought up by her aunty, he was interesting to say the least and the best bit is, he was born in wales but ancestors were scottish....
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I take it all back. Shock collars for randy Welsh men. ;D
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You should see what happened in the 1991 movie 'Wedlock'
and no. this was not the inspiration for my original post ;D
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you will need to tell us what is in wedlock the last film Lillian and i went to was lemon Popsicle :farmer:
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the chance of getting the leg over nothing will stop you in your quest the stories i could tell not of me of others in there quest :D :farmer:
I've always found B###er off,I've got an early start effective ;D
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yes Sylvia but that is you in a relationship or married when you are younger you could take the world on and still be at your work maybe that is why so many relationships fall apart somebody else is offering it :farmer:
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;D ;D ;D, I suppose once one had thier head blown off there was no need for any more as the threat was enough.....thats a little messy though ::)
Is it true that some sheep always get out of fields onto roads and into places they shouldn't so have to be got rid of? Same welsh uncle used to live on a cliffe edge and some sheep would regularly go over the top so as uncle was a climber he rescued them for his dinner.....he did later get found out and had his rope confiscated!!!! I found certain hens kept comming over into our flower garden, stopped them all now but I wonder??