The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Techniques and skills => Topic started by: smudger on March 30, 2012, 11:19:54 am
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Hi
As much as i would like square timber rail and posts for oor paddocks we can't afford it. So going with 1.2m high round post and probably half round top rail with good quality equestrian mesh to 0.9m high so can cross graze sheep and horses. All posts banged in.
Are we better with larch timber over spruce or is there an even better timber (if we are putting the fencing in, its gotta last). Class 4 timber also mentioned somewhere. We've also seen pretreated creosote timber but its expensive but is it worth it? (what happened to the timber that usedf to last 30+ years?)
Also timber sizes (we are ordering materials as local contractors aren't VAT registered):
3-4" intermediate posts - 1.8m long
6-7" corner/ straining posts - 2.1m long
straining brace - 3-4" 2.1m long
gate posts - 7" square for 2 no 7' timber gates and 7" round got metal field gates
that sound ok?
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larch is fine for above ground fencing. If you can get it, sweet chesnut is about the best for posts (well, other than oak, but that's a tad pricey), when I worked at a sawmill we used to guarantee sweet chestnut for 20 yrs as fence posts.
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get larch tanalised. thatll last 20yrs.
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Unfort unately chestnut is out of price range (plus also seen comments that its not necessarily as good in the past ie not cut and seasoned properly - ok if you have a reliable source maybe).
Larch would be my first choice but heard rumours of market flooded with larch and that there is some sort of mould/virus problem. Siberian pine looks the business but not seen advertised locally.
Redwood/ Scots Pine (I am presuming they are the same? I had one contractor saying he couldn't do redwood but could do scots pine, which through me ???). is this an inferior choice to (good) Larch?
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the markets flooded with larch cos of phytoptera, it only exists under the bark and that is stripped as part of the treatment process, my woods are about to be decimated because of phytopera. larch is good wood so you can grab a bargain. if its going in the ground it needs to be tanalised.
redwood and larch have a higher resin content than scots pine.
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Why is sweet chestnut expensive? it is grown everywhere here and they cut the main tree to the base to promote multiple straight tall poles. They split easy and I just hack them into a point and drive home then trim after wire put up. There are piles of these posts at the roadside - some new and some covered in years of growth.
wow smudger - that fence will cost a fortune.
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There's properly tanalised and there's what the local supplier sells as tanalised. About one in three of the ones I put in 5 years ago has rotted at the base. The rest are good as new
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i agree, it has to be high pressure treated.
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there was a separate post already about stobs not lasting very long and yes there is different types of tanalising we have never had a problem with short lived stobs even when i made my own from Douglas fir but they were creosoted with proper coal tar creosote incidental the creosoted stobs of old had a life expectancy of 25 years the wire would be knackered before the stobs and the creosoted ones always went at the ground level :farmer:
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The dragons Den had a pair of chaps who had invented a heat shrunk sleeving to go roung the bottom of the posts where they enter the ground as invariably that's the bit that rots. Can you do something similar with plastic feed bags and duct tape? Accepting it will be no good for posts that are knocked in.
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moisture will get in the back of the heat shrink and still rot :farmer:
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I came across the heat shrink thingies but they work out about 80p each plus time to install. I'd rather buy better timber in the first place.
Deep in the woods - so you are saying larch fencing is ok and not affected by the fungas? Also is higher resin better for fencing or does it make it more difficult to pressure treat/tanalise? I take it you are also saying redwood is not scots pine, so what tree is it?
Any timber which goes in the ground should be tanalsied/treated to class 4 - none of the local suppliers had even heard of it never mind tell me what their class their timber is treated to. :o
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phytoptera causes early death of the tree, it doesnt affect the quality of the timber, redwood and scotspine are fairly generic terms most redwood is probably larch. the term redwood, applies to pine that has a higher resin content. scots pine is generally a low grade of timber, fast grown so youll spot it by the space between the rings ive seen it with as few as 2 rings per inch, its crap, ok for rough temporary stuff but no good for proper work! the more rings per inch the better, that gives wood its lengthways strength, the darker ring is winter growth, the lighter ring is the growth put on when its not dormant.
a high resin content is good all round. its the woods natural preservative, it can make it harder to work tho, tools get clogged. scots pine is gnerally quite knotty and each knot is an area of weakness, timber is graded by its k.a.r, its knot/area ratio. joinery grade has alot less knots than the sort of stuff you would use for general carpentry.
ideally, what you are looking for is slow grown pine, but its getting harder to find and costsmuch more. this glut of larch atm is a good opportunity to get some reasonable timber at good prices.
im really suprised none of your suppliers have heard of tanalised timber, its everywhere! where abouts are you smudger? ill have a look. if you were near me i know of two sawmills that would easily supply what you need.
as you say any timber that is to be in contact with soil needs to be high pressure tanalised timber, ideally of a high resin content and ideally slow grown.
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and there was me thinking that the redwoods were in America and Canada ah well every day is a school day
:farmer:
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californian redwood is just another pine. ive got a specimen sequoia near me, lovely tree it is too.
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but is it in the top 15 :farmer:
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top 15 what? ???
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the specimen sequoia is it in the top 15 of that tree :farmer:
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id very much doubt it!! its not huge by any means, maybe 3m diameter trunk at waist height, and guestimate 100ft tall. theres a few types of sequoia, i b elieve, but im no expert in tree identification. a few of the trees near my house are monitored by a scottish organization the name i cant remember the guy said that there were only two places, outside of scotland that they were growing.
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Hi Deep in the woods.
The local suppliers are selling tanalised timber - they just can't alsways tell us what timber it is nor to what class it has been tanalised.
Please also ensure that the timber you use has been treated to the correct specification - Arch Specification Code TE/Gfa if the timber is to be used above ground (Use Class 3) and TE/GFb if it is to be used in ground (Use Class 4).
http://www.archtp.com/Products/PreservativeProtection/faq.htm#TanEUse (http://www.archtp.com/Products/PreservativeProtection/faq.htm#TanEUse)
http://www.archtp.com/Products/hazard.htm (http://www.archtp.com/Products/hazard.htm)
I have contacted 3 saw mills and 2 weeks later have only 1 price back - it can't be that unusual? surely all timber posts should be to class 4 as a matter of course or not fit for purpose?
Thanks or feedback on timber species - we have asked for "redwood" but will clarify larch.
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there is vast differences in tantalizing some use green dye others do the job properly
check on what equipment is needed for the tantalizing then ask sawmill if they have that equipment :farmer:
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I'm looking into this too. The problem with asking about tanalised is that most suppliers respond with "Oh yes, they're properly pressure treated" but then won't offer any kind of guarantee.
My local supplier can do 1/2 round (pressure treated spruce) posts for £1.15, but they're not guaranteed and the local farmer who suggested the supplier admits they don't last.
I did find this almost local supplier:
http://www.fenceandforget.co.uk/index.html (http://www.fenceandforget.co.uk/index.html)
but they're £3 a post :o (though the posts should outlast me) and another in Bath (Jacksons) that guarantee for 25 years and will deliver to SW wales but by then it works out at about £3 a post again.
I think I may buy cheap posts (and make some from overgrown hedges) and stand them in creosote 'til they soak it up above ground level. Trouble is, that takes time, especially for the home-made ones that are not dried yet, and I want to get some fencing done whilst the ground is wet rather than wait for summer.
maybe I will just have to get my wallet out :'(
mab
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Its the same old story for me. I have time but not money - like the locals.
A tin of wood preserve would cost a fortune here. Wood is free so I have cut long dead chestnut poles that are still vertical. They are easy to split and point with an axe.
We all just stick a chestnut post in - sometimes they are the same height and sometimes the are vaguely equal distance. In early spring people go around checking fence posts - if needed they put a new one in next to a duff one. The duff one stay in the ground. I did however find a pile of posts ( and wire) in the "dump" woods. They are on the log pile now ( minus the wire).
There is not much to do in the early spring so the above fills a few days and costs nothing.
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you can buy tins of tanalith 'e'. pour it in a bucket and soak the ends of your cut timber in it for a few days. make sure the timber is dry and it should absorb loads. i use this technique when i make sash window cills out of local oak and i want to protect the cut end. please take all usual precautions with your bucket, dont leave it accesible to young children or opportunistic alcoholics. it dont taste nice 'hic' ;)
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Well I' using creosote 'cos that's what I've got.
Where can you buy Tanalith e? just googled it and couldn't see anyone supplying it in less than 1000litres?
m
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i buy it in 1l tins from my sawmill. not much help i know, ill ask him 2moro.
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i think its called ENSELE.
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yup, sorry
http://www.parktimber.co.uk/shop/view/49_Treatment/224_Ensele (http://www.parktimber.co.uk/shop/view/49_Treatment/224_Ensele)
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Thx 8)
m
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As long as your strainers are good the other posts are there as 'guidance' and can be replaced when some animal sctraches its arse on it or you knock it over by accident with the tractor ;)
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Good point.
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I saw some chestnut materials this morning - good posts, variable struts and better than expected half-round and quarter stanks. The look of the job suffered though thanks to the half round and quarter stanks not driving straight :-\
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Well... it feels like months since I said lets do some fencing. And know what? It is...
After contacting local agricultural suppliers and being met by grunts of no idea what you are talking about when we asked what timber they were using, what treatment and what class it has been treated to (and possibly, possibly would you have a certificate?) we decided to approach local-ish sawmills who said they did class 4 timber. We asked for Redwood (presumed this would be Scandinavian, but it seems there is no accepted definition of what redwood is - either in country or species origin). Nor could they guarantee what we would actually get since they 'buy' them in in mixed bundles. Eh? What happened to saw mills, sawing and milling? So we couldn't get Larch of any nationality.
Decided we were going to buy from Jacksons who seem to be the only company who put their money where their mouth is and offer a 25 year guarantee (none of this should, could, probably, possibly last up to 10/15/20 years). However, after finding yet more chewed posts (no not escaped beavers, the equines) we have decided to go with creosoted timber. No idea what timber it will be, of course :'( but even if it does rot at ground level it won't be gnawed down by the horses.
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but creosote is toxic and tanalised isnt. i cant see why you cant get properly treated redwood its frankly ridiculous. however its your fence!! why dont you call truro sawmills on 01872561070, theyre very helpful and should be able to put you onto someone in your neck of the woods, they may even be able to supply you?
ive just phoned these guys in honiton, they supply class 4 and have a high pressure treatment plant.
http://blamphaynesawmills.co.uk/our-products/field-and-agricultural-gates/ (http://blamphaynesawmills.co.uk/our-products/field-and-agricultural-gates/)
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Not actually sure we have a quote from Blamphayne - we did ask but after almost 4 weeks waiting have given up. Maybe a thousand pound order for timber isn't big enough for them to be interested?
As I said the other two sawmills did quote but when questioned couldn't supply a specific species and we decided we wanted either larch or scandinavian redwood (and not quick growing British scots pine which could have been in the pile). Warranty was generally 10/15 years as well as I recall, so not as good as Jacksons. Its the horses chewing the timber which has pushed us to creosote option, plus we think it will last 20 years plus.
Didn't find anyone supplying chestnut in SW anyone else googled were small suppliers in SE or wales (wouldn't have been proper post and rail as that is £45/ bay anyway).
As we haven't paid the proforma invoice yet, i will give Truro sawmills a call tomorrow but the other two saw mills were closer and it seems to be a common refrain that any fencing posts supplied will be 'mixed species', so presume this is a reflection of the fencing sector as a whole. I did find a company near swindon who only use russian redwood but it would mean collecting which we can't do.
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personally i would stick with blamphayne,they have what you need!!!! go in and see them, if theyre the only quality sawmill in your area then them being busy is understandable, old fashioned creosote is now illegal, youd be getting 'creocote' which as far as i can see isnt as good..
tanalised timber is safe for animals. and its time proved that it lasts, i cant imagine any firm offering and then honouring a 15yr guarantee, it wouldnt make sense, how would they quantify the conditions of use?
i think most wood thats been tanalised would be fit for purpose, the extra quality of redwood would be a bonus. truro sawmills would be a good call, but im not sure if your too far away from them. god, at this rate ill deliver it myself!!!
you wont find chestnut, its not grown as a crop like in france.
well thats my honest opinion, and i hope it saves you some money longterm.
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http://www.hfstimber.co.uk/creosote-treated-timber.htm (http://www.hfstimber.co.uk/creosote-treated-timber.htm)
Its creosote - can only buy it as a "professional" user. I will give Truro a ring, but Blamphayne can only supply spruce and douglas fir with a few items as "redwood". HFS's prices aren't too bad, when you factor in we would have to paint something to stop cribbing any way. Thanks for advice anyway.
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Deepinthewoods - what you say about tanalising used to be true but there have been significant changes to the tanalising fluid (removal of arsenic for one) that means it is now little more than green water - hence all the problems that are now afflicting the fencing industry as tanalised fence posts as little as 3 years old are rotting off at ground level.
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We've got tanalised posts that are three years old and rotting. Not impressed at all. I use chestnut now.