The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: FiB on March 20, 2012, 10:14:59 am

Title: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: FiB on March 20, 2012, 10:14:59 am
Have looked at previous threads and am no wiser, I feel so thick.  One of the farmers in my valley asked if I was claiming it - to which I said I thought we were too small (12 acres).  Turns out that is not so, but I just cant work out what I need to do.  I dont have entitlements with the holding, Do have holding number etc, but am not rigistered as a farmer (I dont think).  Can anyone signpost to  an easy step by step 'what I need to do' guide???   I know I would need to buy an entitelement and can see how I would do this - is it worth it, cause I cant work out what the payment would be.  I am in Wales.  Thansk anyone!

Oh and I think the farmers brother has claimed on our land before we came here.  Got the impression that yesterdays enquirer was sort of trying to make sure someone wass claiming for it?
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: robert waddell on March 20, 2012, 10:35:01 am
ah if he was claiming for it before he has to have that land available for his use on a grazing let  there may be i say may be a bit of fraud going on  if he is claiming for the land but no access to it either for grazing or crops
you should enquire at the rpa they will tell you if it has been claimed before and if it still is being claimed for and by who
there is only two ways you can get money  historic entitlement passed on to you or purchase units of entitlement there is not many years left in the system so you will have to do your sums :farmer:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: FiB on March 20, 2012, 10:53:41 am
Cheers RW, hero member!  I'll do just that thanks.  I suspect there is every possible permutation of fiddle and loophole crawling through going on round here!!!
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: tizaala on March 20, 2012, 05:07:45 pm
you need to get a move on for this,
key dates for Wales
15 March distribution of SAF packs commences
30 March deadline for submitting applications
2nd April last date for SPS Entittlement transfers
15 May last date for returning SAF form to avoid penalties.
all this is in March/April GWLAD  Magazine
Contact you local Welsh Office for a pack
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: fifixx on March 20, 2012, 07:09:07 pm
The RPA in spite of everything that has been said about them, are always really helpful when I call.  If you have 12 acres then it should be around £240 / ha  for basic (no historic which we never had) payments.

So over a thousand pounds a year - definitely worth looking in to it and even if you paid a land agent to help you it wouldn't cost you more than a few hundred hopefully

http://www.fuw.org.uk/SPCalculator.html (http://www.fuw.org.uk/SPCalculator.html) This looked interesting...
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: bazzais on March 22, 2012, 08:45:02 pm
I'd be very surprised if the SFP was sold to you with the property - you would know as it would have been part of the sale contract of the property.
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: evie on March 23, 2012, 11:29:29 pm
Does anyone know of the dates for Scotland? same as for Wales?
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Penninehillbilly on March 24, 2012, 01:13:20 am
We didn't think it was worth bothering for our 15 acres, plus the forms confused me.
we've bought some more land and decided to look into the stewardship scheme.
just last week we went to see an estate agent that deals in rural properties, she was very efficient, told us clearly what was involved, arranged the entitlements to buy, we should get our money back this year and then another payment next year, then the scheme may alter or run another year, but in theory we should double our money.
On checking for the stewardship it turns out someone is claiming on our original 10 acres, presumably the chap who has it for summer grazing, as we haven't managed to talk to him yet, we don't know if he's claiming the SFP, so we couldn't buy the entitlements which would cover that field, very naughty of him to be claiming stewardship without our permission, esp as he does nothing for the field except leave his cattle on too long and poaches the ground round his feeder.
the cost of the legal work is expected to be about £300, but that's a one off- shouldn't need her again next year (until I see any more paperwork then I'll be yelling for help)  ???
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Helen47 on March 31, 2012, 11:08:25 pm
Hi
New to the site but this interested me!!! I had lost my husband in August last year and decided that I would like a break from looking after someones horses this winter so I gave them notice and they were not very happy about it, suddenly I get a call from one of them asking if I would let them use their entitlements for my field numbers at £50 an acre...now this seemed odd to me because he new my field numbers as he had tacked horses with me for years and at £2.50  a head per week so I thought that might bring in more money I pointed out that he new my numbers because he had had to put some sheep on his IACS forms in the past...he told me he had never claimed but given how nasty he became I asked where my maps were...went to DEFRA and I had to wait a month under the Freedom of Information act to find out who had claimed on my land since we moved here in 2003..this was 2/3/2012 I had my response this Friday they had claimed on my 36 acres for 2010 and 2011 without paying or permission from us. He has threatened to sort me out Defra insisted I informed the police and I did they then asked me to get the police to contact them about the case by all accounts the police have spoken to DEFRA. My question are: Are the payments large enough to justify a threat? Why should the landowner not be entitled to get this information when they own the land not the claimant? Will there be any penalties charged to the claimant? To me it is fraud I know they will never apologise for doing it let alone pay me what I could have earned out of letting the filed numbers as naked land it just doesn't seem fair...  any comments would be gratefully received.. Thanks
   
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: robert waddell on April 02, 2012, 09:08:57 am
looks like nobody wants to comment on your posting Helen       information can be retrieved instantaneously it is the motovation of these people that takes the time
i don't see how you had to report it to the police before defra could confirm to the police that a possible fraud had taken place
with the death of your husband he is not there to confirm or repudiate that farmer had access to these fields all these years if the property is in joint names there is more credence to your version of events
if he has been claiming for your land there is every possibility he has been bending the rules on other aspects of his SFP and could lose the lot plus have to pat back what has been claimed before


years ago there was an application for a house on 4 acres of land the owner had alleged that he rented 250 acres a few miles away and needed the house to farm that 250 acres the NFU supported his claim saying it was necessary the council accepted it but on investigating at the department of agriculture subsidy was being claimed in the original owners name and not the alleged tenant  he did not get the house approved fraud is fraud no matter what form it takes or who perpetrates it :farmer:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Helen47 on April 03, 2012, 09:53:54 pm
Thanks for your reply Robert

It was the threats I had to report to the police then Defra phoned me to ask if I would call the police back and request that the police contact this lady at defra so she could discuss the case with them maybe they already had had dealings with these two guys and knew things could turn nasty I don't know but I do know that the police did call defra...The two brothers have also claimed for my buildings under some scheme as well I have now been told so the list keeps growing....It was only me they ever dealt with as my husband was away working in different parts of the country as a software consultant contracting to the MOD on Secret security level about to be upgraded to DV cleared the highest clearance you can get and we have always had to be squeaky clean to the letter of the law because of this, there is no way on this planet that he would have allowed them to just claim heck I didn't even know what he was working on he took it to his grave with him his clearance would have been lost instantly along with our income if this had come out when he was alive....

This freedom of information act is only protecting the claimant not the owner and that doesn't seem right...surely there should be some way these claims are check to be legitimate either by the landowner signing the claim form or contact with Defra I don't know...Farming is not an easy job as I do all my animals myself I have spent the last 2 months lambing day and night on my own so I agree to them having help financially but only for what they can rightfully claim billions are paid out but only random claims checked....to me I still say it is fraud....but are these claims likely to be large enough to warrant these threats in the first place after all I have done nothing wrong.

Has anyone else out there had similar incidents happen to them or have I been unlucky and found the con men!!!!
Once again thanks for replying
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: FiB on May 25, 2012, 11:52:15 am
Helen - hope you are getting through your situation, it sounds like the last thing you needed :bouquet: .  I now strongly suspect that nearby farmer is claiming on ours again this year so you are not alone...  I just have to decide whether to dob him in.  (Apparently he was asking another neighbour how to spell our surnames!)  would we have had to sign anything if he was doing it legitemately does anyone know?
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Sylvia on May 25, 2012, 12:21:20 pm
I've a suspicion that the farmer we bought our land from's brother is claiming on ours. I shall find out ;)
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Fowgill Farm on May 25, 2012, 12:25:02 pm
Our neighbour claims on ours and openly admits it, don't think his maps have been adjusted since we bought our place! He even gets money for some special grasses thats on it!
mandy  :pig:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: robert waddell on May 25, 2012, 12:29:15 pm
that is just not right  and to me constitutes fraud  different if he rents it  :farmer:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Fowgill Farm on May 25, 2012, 12:36:53 pm
Its only about 3 acres thats on the side that he's a neighbour, our place was a bigger farm sold in 3 parcels and we got the parcel with the house and some land in the middle and our two neighbours got the other two parcels, (they previously rented it from the farmer who died hence the sale, they got first dibs as tenants of the land) he doesn't pay rent and year round his animals graze it and i don't even get a bottle of vino or a box of chocs at Xmas! ::)
Can't be faffed with sorting it out.
Mandy  :pig:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: robert waddell on May 25, 2012, 12:46:11 pm
i did not have you down as a pushover  you need to get this sorted PDQ  there is a real danger he could have a valid claim to that field even if you have proper title to it :farmer:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: Fowgill Farm on May 25, 2012, 12:52:25 pm
Will do some investigating!
Cheers Robert
Mandy  :pig:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: suziequeue on May 25, 2012, 12:57:32 pm
WOW! We have ten acres in wales. Reading through this thread I'm glad I haven't bothered and will not be bothering with this!!
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: mab on May 25, 2012, 01:25:54 pm
having just acquired 30 acres I'm thinking I need to find out more about this - trying to find someone who can explain what SFP are to a complete newbie is my main stumbling block; then finding out if I should apply, how to apply, etc.

Every time I ask someone about it a get a vague reply of "it's all changing in a couple of years" and "you need to buy an entitlement" without any advice on: cost / benefit/  where to start / find the info / get the forms.  :(

m
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: robert waddell on May 25, 2012, 01:51:14 pm
if you bought the land with entitlements you can claim   if not you have to buy sufficient entitlements to cover that acerage  you have to balance the cost of them against any return
an agric adviser  but they will want money your local agric auction mart or a land agent  good luck :farmer:
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: FiB on May 25, 2012, 01:59:45 pm
Quote from: mab on May 25, 2012, 01:25:54 pm
having just acquired 30 acres I'm thinking I need to find out more about this - trying to find someone who can explain what SFP are to a complete newbie is my main stumbling block; then finding out if I should apply, how to apply, etc.

Every time I ask someone about it a get a vague reply of "it's all changing in a couple of years" and "you need to buy an entitlement" without any advice on: cost / benefit/  where to start / find the info / get the forms.  :(
Mab I know what you mean - its is a clear as mud (ive been mulling it over for months).  Found some entitlements for sale (Jones Peckover), followed tizzalas link to FUW calculator, read the rural payments guidance.  Still none the wiser ??? ??? ::) !!!!  Except to know that Ive missed the boat for this year and that information and packs were released in Feb this year - so if it's like that next year it'll all be a big rush again ::) .  Helpful to hear others experiences here though, thnaks
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: henchard on May 25, 2012, 02:03:39 pm
Single Farm Payments were allocated to farmers in 2005. If you did not establish entitlements in 2005, you  have to obtain entitlements by transfer from another farm business.

see here  (http://www.dardni.gov.uk/index/faq/single-farm-payment-questions/questions-on-single-farm-payment-general.htm#how-do-i-claim-single-farm-payment?)for more info

As for other farmers claiming on your land I would seek advice from the regional office of the Rural Payments Agency.

I don't have any entitlements but still fill out the form every year (making a nil claim) as I'm hoping that when the scheme changes in a year or two I may become entitled. In addition I can register my interest in the Environmental schemes (such as Glastir) here in Wales. Also when you do first put in a form they map your land for you and can check if anyone else is claiming on it.

Whilst I do not claim SFP the same form enables me  to claim for other schemes such as the Woodland Creation Premium (that is a payment for 15 years after getting a woodland planting grant).

It is complex and bureaucratic (the form is a nightmare but I just go along to the office and let them tell me to put in it!). I would suggest that anyone who wants to know more speak to the regional office of their payments agency.
Title: Re: Single Farm Payment - Help I cant understand it at all!!!!
Post by: henchard on May 25, 2012, 02:15:20 pm
As regards the new scheme in 2014/15 (The current scheme as we know it along with all existing entitlement are to be extinguished)) that will be introduced.

I found this elsewhere which indicates that you won't be entitled to be included in the new scheme unless you made an SFP claim in 2011

Golden Ticket Status
Claimants who have claimed Single Farm Payment (SFP) in 2011 have, what is commonly being referred to as the “Golden Ticket”, which allows them to apply for an allocation of Entitlement under the proposed new SFP due to be implemented in 2014. Claimant’s who have this status but will not be claiming a reallocation of entitlement as they have or will be going out of farming and giving up their land, may potentially be able to sell this status.

CAP Reform Update - Jan 2012
New scheme to be introduced 1st Jan 2014 (1st Jan 2015 looking more realistic).
The current scheme as we know it along with all existing entitlement are to be extinguished.
From Jan 2014 (2015) a new multi layered payment will be introduced. Made up as follows:-
  (BPS) Basic Payment Scheme
Farmers will need to apply for a new allocation of entitlements in the first year of the scheme. Entitlements will only be allocated to farmers who have activated at least one payment entitlement in 2011 and can meet the Active Farmer definition.
Claiming the Basic Payment Scheme (BPS)
The claimant must:-
  There will be only one type of entitlement.
The two year usage rule will remain
Entitlement will be be transferable only by sale.