The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: wallyward on March 02, 2012, 09:26:44 am
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Hi
New member here. Just thought people may be interested in the following copied from a thread on nother forum:
Knowledge and information about the disease is beginning to evolve.
It MAY NOT be as bad for the sheep industry as has been hyped up by the media. However for some individuals it has been a very distressing and costly in extra time involved in lambing sheep with deformed lambs and the consequential loss in production.
I would qualify anything I say with the caveat that there is still much not known.
What is interesting is that so far almost everyone in my area who has lambed in February has seen instances of the effect of the disease. The numbers of lambs affected ranges from 2% - 20%.
However there may be some room for optimism for those lambing in March, providing the sheep have remained in the same geographical area since tupping.
Flocks that have started lambing in the last few days do not appear to be infected, or if they were it was outside of the critical time.
The critical time for an ewe is between 28 and 56 days of pregnancy, on testing work done so far on calves the virus is relatively short lived before they develop antibodies, up to 5 days.
I believe in this area we had a massive influx of European Midges that arrived in September and proceeded to infect all of the animals. (There is anecdotal evidence of some unexplained deaths in livestock around that time which was put down to Pasturella!)
However while I am trying to be upbeat about this area, I have some less good news for others.
My neighbour who has been particularly badly affected during February has also a March lambing flock, these were away wintered in Dorset and he was hoping that they would not be infected in the same way as those in East Sussex. Unfortunately they have the same problems with a very high number of deformities at the present time.
He sent off material to the VLA and on speaking to them about where the sheep were wintered as to whether they wanted the Holding number, the reply was "do not bother it is everywhere"!
Another reason to be optimistic was in another flock that was all run together last Autumn, they saw no problems in the first week of lambing, very high deformities in the second week and none in the third. This would seem to back up the science.
The problems caused by this virus would appear to be solely down to timing and when it passes through the ewes or cows. There is also some evidence that areas with a low number of Midges have also escaped.
I should qualify that in calving cows it is still too early to know the effects and consequences as it will be late March onwards if the scientists are correct about the timing.
There is no doubt that the infected Midges moved northwards and westwards, how far and at what time they got there we still have to wait and see. All talk of banning movements of livestock especially into Scotland was a little irrelevant!
The other "good" news is that after an animal has been infected it appears to have antibodies and will not get the disease again, how long this will last is not yet known.
It may be better to ensure all animals are infected this summer when not first pregnant to ensure they are immune in the future. Someone suggested that this would be like having Measles parties!
regards
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So is there a way of ensuring the ewes get infected over the summer?
Not to make light of the dreadful situation for those with affected lambs , but, where is one supposed to send the invites for the midges to come to the party!! :-\ :-\
I really feel for those farmers and smallholders who are having to deal with this.....I just dont think i would have the stomach for breaking legs etc. My lambing (four ewes) starts in a few weeks time...fingers crossed it all goes well.
Emma T :wave:
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Hi OH had to break a lambs leg early this morning as it was impossible for the ewe to deliver it. It was curled up in a ball with the back presented. It was dead. OH at least saved the ewe. Blood tests being taken by vet and Laboratory testing the carcass on Monday. We have had 50lambs so far OK but another 20ish ewes still to lamb. The earlier ewes seem to have had no problem so we think it was the later ewes that were affected by the midges.
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I really feel for all of you who are affected by this dreadful disease. We did have a very warm snap in October / November up here, so at the moment I don't think we can be certain we will escape it this lambing season. And as to cattle, we have to just wait and see.
Reading about people having to break fused and deformed limbs in order to remove dead lambs to save their ewes is heartbreaking.
I just wanted to post this excerpt from the latest 'Schmallenberg virus Information for Farmers and Vets' leaflet from AHVLA.
Malformations affecting lambs exposed to the virus in pregnancy may lead to lambing difficulties. Excessive force must not be used during lambing as this may risk injury to both the ewe and lamb. Farmers should contact their veterinary surgeon in these cases which cannot be delivered naturally. Embryotomy (dissection and removal of a foetus that cannot be delivered naturally) should only be carried out on dead foetuses. It should never be used to remove a live animal.
You can find all of the information put out by the Animal Health and Veterinary Laboratories Agency here:
http://vla.defra.gov.uk/science/sci_schmallenberg.htm (http://vla.defra.gov.uk/science/sci_schmallenberg.htm)
They are updating the information frequently at the moment.
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Don't think there's any suggestion it's moved this far north Sally. I suppose we should hope it does over the summer.
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Our near neighbour here in France (Dept 16 Charente) has so far lost 100 lambs. He has a flock of 800. The vet told us this when he arrived to blood test our ewe. Much worse than has been reported here in France.
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Assuming you need to break a lambs leg in order to remove it from the ewe, how do you do it one handed ?
As I assume you will have one hand inside the ewe.
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Don't think there's any suggestion it's moved this far north Sally. I suppose we should hope it does over the summer.
I think we won't know, jaykay, until all the ruminants have produced who were in the first third of their gestation when the midges were last active - they're mapping the spread by monitoring cases, not by testing midges.
A lot of stock would have moved about the country in August / September (tup sales for one) and tups from down south could easily have unknowingly brought the infection with them and infected the local midges. In a normal year (whatever one of those is now!), that would have been too late in the season for there to have been any spread into the local ruminant population. But last October / November, we had a really warm snap, warmer than the summer had been, and there were midges about. Our ewes were with the tup then and will start lambing next week... Cattle who were in their first third at that time will be calving from April.
So whilst I know that, thankfully, it is extremely unlikely that we will see any deformities or abortions due to SMV this spring, I do think we can't be certain that we won't until we get past Easter.
And yes, from a sheep point of view, let's then hope they get infected in the summer, get immune then, and consequently don't suffer these effects from exposure during subsequent pregnancies.
Sadly, from a cattle point of view, infective midges in the summer could mean deformed calves and caesarians for cattle calving from December 2012 through June 2013... :(
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We have it but thank goodness we aren't getting the lambs that have to have limbs broken to get them out. Our lambs have no motor control apparently it is a deformity in the cerebellum. It is heart breaking to watch them die we fought with the first one for 5 days and he was happy then just keeled over and died, the second one lasted 4 hours and then just stopped breathing. Another thing we have noticed is the affected lambs are singles but smaller
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Hi Ellisr sorry to hear there is another person having to go through this where abouts in the UK are you? I'm curious to know when your ewes went to the tup? sorry for the all the questions I am trying to convinvce myself I'm worrying for nothing! I'm not sure thats possible.
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We're in somerset and the tup goes to the ewes at the end of september and just stays in, the early lamb we had from the ewe that got in with the rams in september is fine but our march lambs are very hit and miss and we have 4 left to lamb.
We use spot on instead of pour on which was thought to prevent the midges biting but obviously that isn't necessarily true.
I think with all lambing this year it is buckle down and expect the worst
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Hi Ellisr
We had one of a twin like that got it through to about 5 days old then it keeled over we were bottle feeding it because it was a bit slow in the brain dept but it did die. the other twin was born fine.
On the plus side after our awful Schmallenberg lambing ( in another thread) Yesterday we had 3 sets of twins all strong up and fine so it's very hit and miss. I'm hoping they will find a vaccine so we can do the lot next year and have done with it.
It's not so much the bad lambings thats awful it's the stress of not knowing whose infected and whose not.
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This thread and other threads on this virus are so heartbreaking to read.
I dont know how I would cope with yet another problem on top everything else. My heart goes out to anyone effected, especially to anyone whos flock is their bread and butter - every loss is hitting them in the pocket and the sustainability of their farms as well as the loss of another animal.
I hope its not as bad as its been hyped up to be - so so hope thats he case.
Baz
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Hi Ellisr, thanks for the info again just curious to know if your ewes were covered by spot on at the time the tup went in. As it happens my ewes were treated with a pour on the day the ram went in as there were still masses of midges and it was so warm I was thinking about BTV clutching at straws.....
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They were done mid September to last until end of October (fly season)
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I'm pretty sure any fly treatment doesn't stop midges biting. It might cause them to die once they have bitten but it's too late by then :-\
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I would not disagree with you I have only read the abstract to this study but thought t interesting.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19015877 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19015877)
two things the conclusion re passing on any virus was only probable and not tested. Secondly in the fight against a disease such as blue tongue a dead midge even after having bitten is one less to bite another sheep. It seems to me we can't hope that midges will go away and indeed in the innoculation of sheep re SBV they may be benefcial in the summer months but that won't stop me taking any possible precaution once they are likely to be getting pregnant.
Until my ewes lamb I really don't know where I stand. I know I will be vaccinating against blue tongue this year again despite the figures for the lack of BTV in circulation last year the circulation of midges this past 12 months has been virtually all year round we only had a two week period of any subzero temperatures this winter so using a pour on seems obligatory at this point :(
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Now that the UK is BTV free, I think vaccinating is illegal until the virus shows up again and protection zones are created. Fingers crossed for a Schmallenberg vaccine soon.....
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It is legal to vaccinate for BTV 8 in the UK . Both BTV 1 & 8 has been recorded in the north western part of Brittany. I am very fortunate my sheep are a hobby only I cannot imagine how commercial famrers work through all of this:-(
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Hello Ellisr,
Sorry to hear your sad news but thank you for letting us know. We are near neighbours, and my ewes started lambing this week. So it is good to know what to watch for. Was it obvious when they were born or did it become apparent later?
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If they have the same symptoms as mine it is very obvious after ten minutes as they don't get up and flop around like a fish out of water. If you do get them to lie like a lamb you will notice they shake especially the head which makes feeding hard
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Had two more cases today, a single ram lamb which appears to have excess fluid on brain very floppy and doesn't want to suck we are tubing him at the moment. The ewe just doesn't want to know him seems disinterested in him, this is the second ewe we have had that walked away from lambs like these.
The other case this morning was a ram lamb born healthy, very nice lamb but a short walk away was his aborted twin, born like a fetus, complete, but definitely an aborted lamb. looked like it had stopped growing 3/4 of the way through pregnancy looked very like a toxoplasmosis lamb. But we know it's not that cause we vaccinate.
What a weid year it's been!!! ::)
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:( this thread is really sad and I hope all those affected have better luck with any still to lamb. Just a quick query: how far up England do people reckon it has came? For my first time lambing I am hoping we aren't affected though the ram was brought up from England so I guess its just a waiting game :-\
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Had two more cases today, a single ram lamb which appears to have excess fluid on brain very floppy and doesn't want to suck we are tubing him at the moment. The ewe just doesn't want to know him seems disinterested in him, this is the second ewe we have had that walked away from lambs like these.
The other case this morning was a ram lamb born healthy, very nice lamb but a short walk away was his aborted twin, born like a fetus, complete, but definitely an aborted lamb. looked like it had stopped growing 3/4 of the way through pregnancy looked very like a toxoplasmosis lamb. But we know it's not that cause we vaccinate.
What a weid year it's been!!! ::)
That is the same as my 2 which died one about 4 hours in and the other 4 days in, they just gave up and stopped breathing. It is heart wrenching and the 1st vet I rang hasn't seen schmallenberg but said if they weren't physically deformed then it wasn't schmallenberg and another vet said it maybe so have to wait to see what the VLA say
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Had our tests back from the VLA centre at Winchester and they confirmed we are positive for Schmallenberg virus in the samples we sent up.I think we already knew this but it is good to have it confirmed, i just wish we knew who had been bitten out of all the flock so they would be naturally vaccinated, not that we can do a lot until a vaccine comes out anyway!
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Hi Feldar sorry to hear this -- :bouquet: :sheep: :sheep:
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Hi I'm on the edge of the new forest on the wilts/hants border. My first ewe to lamb, a shearling, had a dead lamb first then a limp live lamb, neither had deformities. The second lamb survived about 3 hours but wouldn't lift its head, mum totally ignored them but i wondered if that was because she was a first timer.
yesterday we has healthy twins then this morning i had to pull out a dead lamb with a deformed head and slightly thin legs but they weren't twisted, its twin looks healthy.
I can't understand how one twin can b affected and the other fine
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Hi Elissian
I'm afraid that's how this disease presents. Some are fine and some not we have had healthy twins from one ewe and on the same day a healthy single with it's deformed twin born dead along side it.
It is easy to blame everything on the virus when there could be other reasons, every year we get the odd dead lamb or empty ewe and for two years running we had a pair of spliced lambs.
I think we all just have to go with the flow this year, there is nothing as farmers we can do to prevent it so if your getting lots of problems i would keep your vet informed and if anything really odd starts happening like loads of dead lambs or abortions it always worth investigating.
I think it's good to report our experiences on the forum here so others can watch out for symptoms, i just hope people aren't getting too fed up with us banging on about it all the time.
Everyone has been so supportive and i would just like to say thanks to you all.
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I think the updates are great as lambs that can't stand or are wobbly could have been put down to swayback or borders disease which would have been costly for tests and then treatment, when actually it is the milder symptoms of scmallenberg. We are dropping samples into the VLA today just to make sure it is schmallenberg so we can rule other problems out and concentrate on the right one.
It is awful what is happening but on here we share the experience and I know myself it is a comfort knowing I am not going through this alone and have support in such awful times.
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I am so sorry that so many of you are going through this - but if you can and want to share then please do.
It is horrible to hear your stories, but I feel so much better informed than other farmers I know who have only the national and farming press to inform them.
Thank you very much everyone who has shared their experiences of this horrible disease :bouquet:
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I find reading other peoples experiences very helpful and though it sounds wrong, reassuring. It helps to know it's not something i'm doing wrong but at the same time awful that we are experiencing this. I only have 16 ewes to lamb, my heart goes out to those with hundreds, what an awful waiting game.
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We have had a full term and a mumified twin born yesterday that was only about 6 ins long found it hanging from her, the full term dead lamb had been born normally.
I am going to take some pictures because my son is at Agri college and they don't know much about this disease. they are no worse than what you would see in a vet book, i know it's a bit macabre but i learn by pictures so if anyone wants to see them PM me in a day or two and i will send you them but i wont post on here cause not everyone wants to see such things.
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It is not macabre - it is important that we know what can happen. Everyone loves to see fluffy white lambs skipping around a field but those with the responsibility for their care also need to understand the bigger picture. It just seems one of nature's cruel twists, which has made lambing a worrying time for many of us. I will PM you next week.
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I too like to keep myself informed, feldar, so will PM you.
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I don't think it's macabre either, for everyone who is breeding I think it's important to know what is going on - who knows how far it will spread? I'm just so sorry for all of you who have been affected, and any who are going to be - this is an unknown at present :-\. I was thinking about this when I walked through a sea of midges today - they are out in force already!
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We are in northern Germany, and the sheep belonging to the farmers who rent some of our fields are just finishing lambing - started in December. The first lambing was not good, with quite a lot of lambs dying before birth, or born deformed. One is still bottle fed, and seemingly brain damaged. His leg is deformed so he cannot stand properly to feed from his mother. HIs eyes do not seem to open properly.
However, since about Feb. the lambs have all been fine and healthy. It seems to be so dependant on when the infected mosquitoes were about in relation to the age of the feotus. The farmers here have been lucky, if one can say that, in that their rams live with the ewes most of the year, and so the ewes don't all get pregnant at the same time, thereby spreading the risk period over a number of months. Maybe this is a strategy that could be used. It does mean an extended lambing period however.
I'm not yet clear if the immunity passes on genetically. If not that means the risk for first year mothers remains for next year, and each successive year I suppose.