The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: colliewoman on February 14, 2012, 09:27:24 pm

Title: polled goats
Post by: colliewoman on February 14, 2012, 09:27:24 pm

 2 of my girlies are naturally polled. I have read that if you breed polled to polled you get a 1 in 8 chance of kids being hermaphrodites.... and that the hermie trait can be linked to the polled trait...(bear with me, this is only an idea).
Assuming if i was prepared to use for meat any hermies thrown, do you get to a point if you breed polled to polled where you can produce polled goats without throwing hermies?
Would it be horribly unethical to try it? Are the hermies obvious in all cases, or can you end up with 'females' that won't breed?
As far as I am aware, if I breed them to a horned male, all risks are removed, but then we still have horns in some cases.
Is the pipe dream of naturally polled risk free goats really just that? Or is it worth a go?

Discuss please!

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: jaykay on February 14, 2012, 09:37:19 pm

I don't know. But these folk might.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/PolledGoatGenetics/ (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/PolledGoatGenetics/)

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: Brucklay on February 14, 2012, 09:40:07 pm

As relatively new to goat I am adding to this so I can keep a track - I find the genetic of all my animals a maze and will take me a lifetime to understand - looking forward to the knowledgeable replies

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: colliewoman on February 14, 2012, 09:57:07 pm

Quote from: jaykay on February 14, 2012, 09:37:19 pm

I don't know. But these folk might.
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/PolledGoatGenetics/ (http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/PolledGoatGenetics/)

 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: thankies, have applied ;D ;D

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: Anke on February 14, 2012, 10:11:03 pm

Breeding polled to polled has in some cases a 1 in 4 chance of producing intersex offspring (see Mackenzie). Most goatkeepers will not do it, sometimes the intersex is not clear cut and you just get non-breeding females.

I can see the advantage of having polled kids that are for meat consumption only, as it would remove the additional disbudding costs. However the problem is that you would want to keep some of your females for breeding on, and then don't know which ones are safe to use and which ones would be a waste of time/feed and effort - and you wouldn't find out until they are over two years old!!! If meat production is your aim, I would just go for a BOER male. Even two polled goats ca produce horned offspring.

I personally would not buy a male or female goat that was the result of a polled to polled mating, but if I ever get a good looking polled male from my (horned/disbudded) females I will for sure keep him intact! (I had one last year but did have to ring him as we did not have the set-up to keep males then.... and I am kicking myself now!!!!!)

I used a polled male last year on my horned/disbudded female goat and was told - he always throws horned offspring - well not in my case! S it's all a bit of muddle and unless you know the pedigree of your stock (and also what else the male has thrown before) it is quite risky to have polled to polled matings. Even with using a horned male on your polled females you have a 50% chance of polled offspring.  Sometimes even the data in the BGS register are wrong, as some polled goats have horn buds under their skull (but they do not grow into horns), and in inexperienced (or very greedy???) vet may disbud... as I have heard of people having polled kids from aparently horned (but disbudded) parents....


Food for thought....

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: colliewoman on February 14, 2012, 10:32:16 pm

Quote from: Anke on February 14, 2012, 10:11:03 pm

However the problem is that you would want to keep some of your females for breeding on, and then don't know which ones are safe to use and which ones would be a waste of time/feed and effort - and you wouldn't find out until they are over two years old!!!

This is the bit I was wondering about, if someone didn't mind the expense of rearing females ended up non breeders and had to cull them, could you after time (and money) produce a 'safe' line of polled goats? or will the hermie trait be there for ever?

I don't do meat, thought don't mind others eating my unwanted billy kids and ram lambs so I don't really want to go meat goat.

 ??? ??? ???I've made my head hurt now ;D
There must be a way, somehow I would have thought! cattle and sheep both used to always be horned (my Dad was part of the breeding program that bred the horns out of Friesan cows. How I wish I had been old enough to talk to him about these things before he died :()

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: Anke on February 14, 2012, 10:47:55 pm

I don't hink you can breed out the horns from goats and not have hermaphrodites - if yes I am sure someone would have done it by now... or maybe not... too late now to think about this more... maybe tomorrow...

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: jaykay on February 15, 2012, 10:43:31 am

In this table, P stands for Polled. It is a dominant gene, ie you only have to have one copy of it to look polled (each goat has two copies of each gene, one from mum, one from dad. So PP, Pp and pP are all polled and you can't tell which genes they've got by looking at them. p is the recessive version of the gene, which is horned. A horned goat must be pp.

h is the gene for hermaphrodism and is recessive, ie you have to have two copies to be hermaphrodite, ie hh. But a normal goat can 'carry' the hermaphrodite gene, ie it could be Hh or hH.

The way I see it, normal horned goats are the last line in the table. There is no reason to breed for lines where hermaphrodism crops up, so in horned goats the h gene has been bred out.

BUT, in polled goats you've got a reason to keep the hermaphrodite gene, since it is linked to the polled gene, which you're deliberately keeping. In theory it would be possible to breed for polled, normal goats (PP hh) but because the hermaphrodite gene is recessive, and so a normal goat can carry it, you would have to have a long pedigree before you knew that you had no h genes in it, since you can't tell by looking.

And this is only if the hermaphrodite condition is a single recessive gene and it's highly likely that it is not - sex determination is affected by a whole host of genes.

Ph PH Ph PH Ph PH Ph PH ph pH ph pH ph pH ph pH

Ph Ph PH PH ph ph pH pH Ph Ph PH PH ph ph pH pH

Polled, hermaphrodite Polled, normal, carries hermaphrodite gene Polled, normal, carries hermaphrodite gene  Polled, normal, no hermaphrodite gene  Polled, hermaphrodite Polled, normal, carries hermaphrodite gene  Polled, normal, carries hermaphrodite gene  Polled, normal, no hermaphrodite gene    Polled, hermaphrodite  Polled, normal, carries hermaphrodite gene    Polled, normal, carries hermaphrodite gene    Polled, normal, no hermaphrodite gene    Horned, hermaphrodite Horned, carries the hermaphrodite gene Horned, carries the hermaphrodite gene Horned, no hermaphrodite gene

Title: Re: polled goats
Post by: ballingall on February 19, 2012, 07:59:26 pm

I don't think there is ever any way of getting rid of the hermaphrodite gene. On the plus side, you can eat them. My aunt had a female which turned out to be one, and they eventually had her slaughtered and ate her- my mother swears it was the best meat she has ever had.... Better than any other goat meat.


Beth