The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Fowgill Farm on February 02, 2012, 09:53:45 am
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I have posted a similar post on the GOS website which i know some of you won't be able to access so i'm repeating it here.
I have noticed recently the growing number of pigs that are for sale on various piggy & smallholding websites including whole herds, some are community farm herds that have had their funding cut and some are because people's circumsatnces have changed and they can no longer keep their pigs and that can't be helped either. None of us have a crystal ball or can see into the future.
The reason i've posted is to remind people about the committment you're taking on and to research your market thoroughly before taking the plunge, better to buy in a few weaners to fatten than plough into breeding your own and be left with a dozen of so weaners to feed. The marketplace is saturated with pigs at the present time and with the economic downturn showing no let up is likely to continue to be so. I myself have two litters to sell and have no takers despite advertising in the last ten days so it looks like we'll be eating lots of pork this year!
So just a friendly reminder to think about what you can take on comfortably and what will happen if your circumstances change.
Sorry for being doom & gloom but thought it was time to comment.
Mandy :pig:
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I completely agree Mandy :love: :pig: :love:
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Hear hear Mandy - too right :thumbsup:
Now folks are starting to wake-up from the "micro-pig" nightmare I have had them contacting me GIVING AWAY "breeding trios" that they no-longer want. In a lot of these cases 1 or 2 & sometimes all have not been registered. There does seem to be a pattern with some of them - the pigs were not all bred in Scotland & the sellers moved here not long after we did ???
Biggest problem with the KKs is that many folks can't face eating them - even the ones who'd rather give them away. They obviously didn't think about reality before they paid silly money - it really seems that someone's been making a fast fistfull out of all this misery!
:love: :pig: :love:
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we took some weaners to market the other week (just 3 to test the water) our were the last lot of weaners ...... the auction kicked off with the sows boarrs and then the porkers at last the weaners first pen of X's reached £3 each then the next few pens £2 - £4 each a litter of berskshire £17 pounds each then a litter of GOS £5 each our hearts were in our mouths by then ours reached £35 each thank goodness as we had not set a reserve.
our friend then came over looking rather glum his GOS and her litter of 8 fetched £108 he was gutted pedigree pig registered etc etc.
then on talking to the auctioneer he told us any pig that has colour is hard to sell as everyone wants the white pig atm.
this was the first time we had taken any to market we were just testing the water but in future any that are not sold at weaning will be off to market.
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I was talking to one of the auctioneers at Hereford market this morning , he told me that a trio of kunes made £10 for the 3 three weeks ago, but my Gos x pietrain Breeding sows should make about £150/£160 each.
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I think part of it is time of year/whether it's a weekend market or in the week/where you are in the country ???.
I really feel for your friend C'feed, that sow was worth at least 3 times that in weight - someone had a bargain there, the piglets would have covered the purchase price alone :o What's the craze with white pigs I wonder? Most of the rare breeds are coloured, they're easier to keep & their meat is amazing.
I think the market is saturated with lots of poor examples of KKs atm too - so I guess it's up to us to promote the quality herds, of all pig breeds.
I for one have been shy of taking any of my stock to a market, I'd rather hang onto them & sell them privately or put them in the freezer. I've been to a few markets to watch - you couldn't even get the cost of covering their feed the prices some are going for. At the same time I realise that if we don't start putting quality stock in the markets, the folk looking for something will either be put-off by what they see or end-up with sub-standard stock - it's a big catch 22 atm :-\
:love: :pig: :love:
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we were asked today if we wanted 70 weaners of all sizes plus adults
he had bought two for the children and just a population explosion saddelback cross large whites
breeding is not something to be considered lightly and people round on you when you tell them to reconcider If they should breed
selling pedigree pigs at even £35 you are not making any money
also there is market value for sows and it is not £300 per pig OK if you can get that but not every body can punt 150-200 kilos of pork
there will always be poor examples of every breed it should only be the best that is breed from not an entire litter quality stock does not even sell just look at the BPA show and sale
the only reason for wanting white pigs is they are not so hairy and easier to scrape and the white hairs don't show the same :farmer:
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its interesting you post this mandy, i was thinking the same the other day, pork prices realistically need to rise for pigs to become viable in reality, that said i treat it as a hobby and the 3 i've got to pick up from the butchers tomorrow is a nice extra, we loose money hand over fist in honesty but we're lucky had the space, sheds etc so its nice and i'd rather eat stuff i know where its come from.
we do quite a bit of work at shugbrough hall farm (on the water mill) all the staff there are being made redundant (council cuts) as of april 1st, and the pigs went there last month, zack the farm manager said that £9 a pop for the kunes and berkshires, the magalitzas made around 20, very sad. i suspect its the tip of the ice berg.
untill the illigally produced pork from europe is banned we'll struggle, and even then rare breed, free range is a premium product and in this ecconomic climate folks can't afford to feed/ spend on pigs/ pork.
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your right robert the pigs are worth more but around here its about the mark unless they are breeding quality registered etc etc the rest of the litter will be split for pork and a trio have been kept for the shows and hopefully someone is looking into buying a boar (for more than £35 i hasten to add ;)) so all in all we are pleased with the result.
the breeding side is a hobby to get the show team the meat side has to make money its all a side line for us and the love of the breed that spurs us on.
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we were asked today if we wanted 70 weaners of all sizes plus adults
he had bought two for the children and just a population explodonsion
breeding is not something to be considered lightly and people round on you when you tell them to reconcider If they should breed
Robert this is exactly what i mean, people don't realise those two lady pigs they bought can produce 24+ piglets each a year, its a lot of pork to shift and i too have been had a go at when mentioning perhaps breeding might not for them, its all about consequences and people just don't look any further forward than their nose ends! ::)
i fear its going to get worse before it gets better!
Mandy :pig:
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There used to be a lot of attention 40yrs ago to what was known as the 'pig cycle', this was taught avidly at Agricultural Colleges, because of the short breeding period, at times of high prices, people would jump on the 'bandwagon' cause over-production and lower prices. The subsequent bankrupts would then cause a shortage and higher prices, and so on. This was always a pitfall with pigs.
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There used to be a lot of attention 40yrs ago to what was known as the 'pig cycle', this was taught avidly at Agricultural Colleges, because of the short breeding period, at times of high prices, people would jump on the 'bandwagon' cause over-production and lower prices. The subsequent bankrupts would then cause a shortage and higher prices, and so on. This was always a pitfall with pigs.
Still taught in Economics as the corn-hog cycle and has been around since the 19th century!
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if the price of live pigs is poor, is the price of meat still high?
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In a nutshell...
The cycle consists of massive fluctuations in pig numbers caused by overreactions to changes in market prices of pigs and feedstuff. When the price of feedstuff rises (Stage I), the financial position of most pig farmers goes sharply negative and they cut the number of pigs they rear. In the next stage (II), the large fall in pork and bacon availability leads to price rises, which restore the viability of pig breeding and rearing. In Stage III, improved profitability leads to a large jump in pig numbers, causing prices to moderate or fall. Stages IV-onwards, either consist of continual yo-yoing of prices and pork supply (let's call this stable instability) or everybody learning from recent experience, the fluctuations becoming smaller and increasingly the industry achieves greater degrees of price stability and stable supply (let's call this incremental stability through learning).
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simply ...
Human nature - folks always want what they can't get/afford. If there's plenty of something, no-one pays it much attention!
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captain a very simplified explanation but you forgot that Britain imports a lot of pork and cheap pork at that not reared to the same welfare standards as British we are members of the EU and therefore have free trade with other countries and good old Britain lets anything and everything in
i don't think the pig industry has ever had incremental stability through learning o and the biggest factor global debt leading to the end buyer the housewife having less to spend on food :farmer:
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exactly, the best thing we could do to stabalise prices is ban illegally produced imports. irt may happen but like everything in europe it will take long time... if it ever happens.
that would bring prices quickly in line, especially with cheap mass imports. big legal uk producers at current feed prices are loosing money hand over fist.
food is generally too cheap, though not a popular view with the masses, joe public don't know what effort goes into growing food either animal or vegtable,
if you look at the food a pig eats to grow its got to fetch 2-300£ if you had to buy it in, with a free range system plus the costs of transport and killing, vet bills etc,
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The british government won't ban the cheap, no-welfare pork coming into this country & they'll do the same with the eggs :o
If they do, then they might lose the next election, coz the masses will b****y starve - what with no jobs & withdrawel of benefits >:(
Thanks - that's my rant over for tonight folks ;)
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There is also the fact that retailers have become very adept at ignoring any drop in cost of their 'buy in', prices in the shop window do not show any significant fall regardless of market conditions, so perhaps there is better prospects for direct sales.
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Was talking to somebody last night who told me porkers at killing weight at a local mart were fetching only £50 they were saddleback crosses so somebody there has lost shed loads of money and the butcher got a bargain and will probably sell at top dollar in his shop!
Mandy :pig:
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sounds about right we were at our local auction yesterday finished pigs were fetching anything from £40 for coloured to £86 for hybrids on the plus side some rather nice GOS sows fetched £180 - £190 and boars £100-£150 which is up on previous sales.
still the weaners of x's were in the £3 field some hybrid weaners brought in £40 each so the market is very much up and down as always quality will sell.
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I don't think the government CAN ban pork imports from countries inside the EU unless they fail to meet EU welfare standards, which are pretty poor. They COULD ban the import of battery eggs on these grounds. The pig cycle will apply to these overseas producers too: the price they get for their pork will also be depressed due to the glut of home produced pork.
I agree everyone should think twice about breeding pigs unless they have a decent business plan. If people re offloading surplus pork (or pigs) at a loss it affects us all. Hopefully enough of us will continue breeding pigs to prevent any more bloodlines becoming extinct!
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the situation isn't much better in Scotland and if anything a lot worse the pigs that are brought forward to auction are cross bred with dubious parentage and underfed going by the age declared and there size
large black 13 week old weeners unsold at £5 each they did go back to try to sell them but i left
saddelback males intact 6 months old 2x £16 and 2x £22
a 3 and a half year old boar £38 meant to be a osb but must have passed one on the journey there
the best ones there were Tammie's 3 month old intact males £20 3 month old gilts £27
other large pigs were selling for less than half there value if sold to the cast trade
and the stories just keep coming of large numbers of pigs that are looking for new homes for various reasons
to many people deciding to breed with crosses and poor quality stock they are overwhelmed with a population explosion even if you have a market for your pigs this can disappear overnight and left with them
in the commercial pig industry the males are not castrated because of the contracts that suppliers have that is alright as they are all for meat there are separate breedding farms for the gilts and stock boars
however the pedigree and small scale pig keeper i believe should be more vigilant with what boars are allowed to mate far to often i hear o they are pedigree pigs i just don't bother with the paperwork if they were to bother they just might find it financially rewarding and get rid of the crap that is breeding a perfusion of unwanted underperfoming pigs :farmer:
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A good answer to this would be if you only intend to have pigs for meat, buy weaners and do not breed/ Or is that too simple.
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A good answer to this would be if you only intend to have pigs for meat, buy weaners and do not breed/ Or is that too simple.
Because people think they can do it cheaper by breeding their own which is a big fat myth, it costs approx £5 per week to keep weaners/fatteners so if you're left with a litter of 9 as i was a year or so ago thats £45 a wk you have to find, people breed only wanting one or two pigs for themselves and think ok i'll sell the rest ::) but oh oh it don't work like that and as Robert says the marts are full of 'em. Which is why i raised this subject in the first place to get people to really think about it before they decide to breed, note how many pigs are for sale in marketplace at the moment! not just weaners whole herds!
:( >:( Mandy :pig:
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OK so some people think they can breed there own meat weeners they buy some cross bred piglets aw they are to cute to eat and the children love them the wife /biddy in loves them the Hubie loves them so they keep them a year then want a boar any old shite will do so they end up with a piglet that is a four way split 25% off sod all now to farrowing stage it has taken them 18 months and no pork by there reckoning it has cost them a few bags of feed by my reckoning it costs £700 a year to keep an feed a sow so they keep two piglets what to do with the rest sell them for a fiver at market they don't bother about the money they have lost they just want shot of them and everybody thinks that the going rate for weeners is £5 fork off
so there breeding programme has taken at least two years probably cost them £1500 but they don't mind the family loves them o and because they are social animals they need two so they breed with two
and don't even think i am having a rant i have not even started yet >:( :farmer:
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we bought our first piglets 7 years ago from thainstone - unreg tamworths £14 each, the year after black crossbreds £18 each. then one year we bought un-reg tammies direct from the smallholder for £25 each, and that was quite expensive compared to adverts in local paper.
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Further to my earlier posting, the 2 I took to Hereford market , 19 month old gos x pietrain gilts. 1 made £106, the other made £120 ,
there were a couple of tamwoth gilts looked like racing snakes , hellish skinny, less than £20
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Hi, I agree that everthing is very gloomy at the moment, we have been breeding Registered British lop pigs for a few years now, only 2, mother & daughter, the mother has now retired and we will not be breeding our younger one again, when we first started we had no problem getting £40 per weaner but now you really can't get anything near that. We have decided that we will just buy in 2 weaners grow them on and send to slaughter when ready. A very sad time for pigs.
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every one seems down beet
what has the bpa put up your costs for it will only make you keep less
have they done and promoting or trying to stop illegally produced pigs from coming into the country
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I don't think the government CAN ban pork imports from countries inside the EU unless they fail to meet EU welfare standards, which are pretty poor. They COULD ban the import of battery eggs on these grounds. The pig cycle will apply to these overseas producers too: the price they get for their pork will also be depressed due to the glut of home produced pork.
I agree everyone should think twice about breeding pigs unless they have a decent business plan. If people re offloading surplus pork (or pigs) at a loss it affects us all. Hopefully enough of us will continue breeding pigs to prevent any more bloodlines becoming extinct!
i think they could certainly ban some of the stuff on welfare grounds, and believe they aredoing with the battery eggs now so fingers crossed the pork will follow...
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jep i think you are out of touch with what the relevent bodies do for pork breeding and pigs in general
why is it always the bpa fault you have to have free market conditions yes a reasonable return for our efforts that is all we are asking :farmer:
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The only reason I considered keeping one Welsh weaner back for breeding was because I had to
travel far to many miles to get weaners at the right time. I need 12 weaners mid Aug to deal with the tons of apple pulp we produce. Here in Bucks not many pigs about ! ?
I would love to buy the right type of weaner at the right time for the money I read above. I would then not have to breed my own. I would be happy to pay fair money. Is £45 fair? But none available round here!?
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Robert w. I agree with the sentiment of your posts, so I am not arguing. I would just like to ask how you recon it costs £700/year to keep a sow? I realise I am fortunate being an arable farmer and mill my own feed but I am well aware of the value of it!
Mark
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feeding
straw
your time and effort
purchase price ok you get something back if you sell her
water
vet bills medicines and injections
boar hire AI or cost of boar and feeding
if you collect fruit and veg or brewers waste it costs to collect it
dung has to be disposed of
maintenance and replacement of fixtures and fittings
electricity
you get the picture
now these arable farmers that are making a fortune from growing grain £200 per tonne for barley ;) ;) :farmer:
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Well then! Robert, I know you have no love for Kunekune, but they are small and don't cost too much in feed(mine are fed 75% free fruit and veg and are still a good body weight)
I buy in weaners of other breeds and rear them for my very large family, they pay costs and get good meat, fine, I know if you have a large family, but I have the pleasure (and the trials ::)) of rearing them.
I sold two litters of Kunekune, mostly, I admit as "pets" but I ALWAYS emphasised to buyers that if they decide that they have taken on more than they can manage, I will have them back(they won't get their money back though) so maybe I will have a good many free sausages and pork pies :D
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Here in Bucks not many pigs about ! ?
I But none available round here!?
You aren't looking in the right places or prepared to travel out of the county then?
Czechmate. commercial farmers are losing £21 a pig in the UK and they have economies of scale so how can somebody like us do anything more than break even if we are lucky and our labour is 'free' ish.
Robert and I don't want people not to breed, we just want them to make the right considerations not just for their selfish selves but for the sake of the current market and their pigs too. Too often i've seen 12wk old free range weaners go to the local mart to be sold into what! slatted commercial set ups more than likely what must go thro their intelligent little minds they must be suicidal! (Commercial pigs are born to a life without earth & straw, have you seen a happy commercial pig i always think they look so sad in pictures)
Mandy :pig:
Ps bit grumpy this morning burst pipe in pig yard and frozen drains = flooded out pigs
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Please show me the right place to look! Last time I had to travel to Wisbech in cambs
200 mls , 4.5 hrs round trip. Time and diesel... It all ads to the costs.
So yes .. Would rather buy local. Time at £10 per hour ? Diesel at £40 say.
Thats 2 weaners just there.
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Please show me the right place to look!
Most of the breed socities have for sales sections on their websites, all the smallholding magazines have ads and sections devoted to pig breeders (using a landline you can call most for free at the weekend), local ag merchants often have signs( this is how i've sold my last two lots of weaners locally) Asking at the local mart if anybody knows of any. If you're fussy about what breed you have you may well HAVE to travel.
You're right in the middle of the country with good road links try living up here in the wilds of Yorkshire! I've had to travel to Essex, Manchester & Derbyshire for good pigs. If you want local animals a lot of it is pot luck and being in the right place at the right time.
The GOS website had a huge list of members and their locations so maybe this will help.
http://www.oldspots.org.uk/members.asp (http://www.oldspots.org.uk/members.asp)
Your area sort of is between Midlands & SE so check both lists.
HTH
Mandy :pig:
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I just typed pig breeders in bucks into Google - loads of pages ;)
There's Jarmfarm with saddlebacks, Michelle Andrews & Richard Hall, Tel. No.: 01844 274023 with Middle whites and that's just on the 'best of breeds' website. But as Mandy says - pretty much all of the breed societies have breeders listed by area, might just take you a wee while to look through.
Karen :wave:
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Thank you for those very good pointers.
Love trying to be in the right place at the right time .
Could be a life motto! It feels great when that happens!
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Also worth having a look on the BPA website - www.britishpigs.org (http://www.britishpigs.org).
There is a 'search for pigs' button. You can put your region in, the type of pigs you are looking for and it comes up with a list.
Let us know how you get on.
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. commercial farmers are losing £21 a pig in the UK
i thot it was £12 a head....thats even worse.
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Please show me the right place to look! Last time I had to travel to Wisbech in cambs
200 mls , 4.5 hrs round trip. Time and diesel... It all ads to the costs.
So yes .. Would rather buy local. Time at £10 per hour ? Diesel at £40 say.
Thats 2 weaners just there.
you should have called in for a cuppa ;) we are just up the road from wisbech.
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Well you couldn't make it up, since i sold all my weaners i've had 2 calls & 2 e-mails of people wanting piglets! twinkle is due in 3/4 wks and i could do with her having 20 (she has six last time! big 'uns) the last two years i couldn't give piglets away!
heyho not complaining but thats pig keeping feast or famine.
Mandy :pig:
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Please show me the right place to look! Last time I had to travel to Wisbech in cambs
200 mls , 4.5 hrs round trip. Time and diesel... It all ads to the costs.
So yes .. Would rather buy local. Time at £10 per hour ? Diesel at £40 say.
Thats 2 weaners just there.
try looking at the rbst stock exchange on their website.
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Well you couldn't make it up, since i sold all my weaners i've had 2 calls & 2 e-mails of people wanting piglets! twinkle is due in 3/4 wks and i could do with her having 20 (she has six last time! big 'uns) the last two years i couldn't give piglets away!
heyho not complaining but thats pig keeping feast or famine.
Mandy :pig:
Especially if they are gilts! ;) ;D
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Well you couldn't make it up, since i sold all my weaners i've had 2 calls & 2 e-mails of people wanting piglets! twinkle is due in 3/4 wks and i could do with her having 20 (she has six last time! big 'uns) the last two years i couldn't give piglets away!
heyho not complaining but thats pig keeping feast or famine.
Mandy :pig:
Ha ha. I don't have any spare weaners, pork sales are on the up so I don't look like having any spare weaners. Now I am getting a call every other day asking for weaners ::) Mind you, they struggle to get through on my phone for folks asking for straw - now that's all sold!!!
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Great to hear! It's about time we had some good news, perhaps we should start a good news in business thread?! Sometimes you can (and very understandably) get bogged down in the gloom mire.
:thumbsup:
Ha ha. I don't have any spare weaners, pork sales are on the up so I don't look like having any spare weaners. Now I am getting a call every other day asking for weaners ::) Mind you, they struggle to get through on my phone for folks asking for straw - now that's all sold!!!
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