The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Rispain on January 18, 2012, 10:15:05 am
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If anyone is interested, Purebred in pig meshans will be coming into the Uk around June time. Piglets will be available around october. These are the most fertile pigs in the world and are often crossed with other breeds in the US and canada both commercial and traditional to improve litter size. They are exceptional lard pigs for anyone interested making their own lard. They also make good meat pigs with lots of marbling in the meat. They are not the prettiest but have a super temprement and are hardy. We will be owning all the limited uk seman for this breed which will be from two different bloodlines of boars. There is a possibility that a boar from a different bloodline altogether will be available in 2013 however, until then only ai will be possible with the breeding stock.
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Why import pigs when there are perfectly good breeds in this country that need help like the Large Black or the Lop. Only the commercial guys want big litters, i as a hobby keeper certainly don't. When you say they will be in the UK in June surely there will be a quarantine period before you can start selling thie progeny, where are they coming from and what is the disease status of that country. Sorry to be terribly negative but things like this make me wonder about the mentality of some British people and why they can't support their own. i feel another micro pig scenario coming on except these are monster pigs from China.
Rant over
mandy :pig:
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Hi
no you are not negetive, we have been breeding traditional breeds registered with the BPA for over 10 years. This is our project that we want to do. There is no quarantine period as they are coming from Holland and they are of course checked and bloods taken and they go through a rigourous health test.
You also have to remember that this country exports alot of our own breeds which many breeders do regularly. and it is good that other countries are happy to receive them and do not have this approach where they just support their own breeds.
Can I just add that this will not be a micro pig situation which I hate. These are meat pigs which will go for meat and breeding.
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b*****ks people will buy them coz they're queer looking and a novelty. China has taken over pretty much everything in the world now so why not pigs!
No wonder theres 2.685million unemployed, now there'll be a few less British pigs bought. Well done Rispain another nail in the coffin for British pigs. Suppose you'll want the British Pig Assoc to keep their their herdbook! ::) as well like all the other foreign breeds that are now purported to be deemed British, but saying that the BPA's only interested in money so if you offer enough readies they'll bit e your hand off!
Mandy :pig:
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i don't think that will happen Mandy. people who prefer our own breeds will stick with these breeds. As the BPA keeping the herd book, first of all Marcus wouldn't even entertain the idea and secondly why would I want them to do it. I don't think it is necessary to start swearing to get your point across. I hardly think it will impact on the situation with the traditional breeds which will struggle whether or not there is a different breed about. Did the mangalistas damage our breeds, not to my knowledge. I am pleased that other countries accept our pigs, I believe over twenty large blacks went to Germany not so long ago. Would you want to stop exports of our breeds as you feel so strongly that breeds should stay in their own country. It is good that breeders can export, all breeders not just our own. :) The sort of people buying these pigs will not be pet owners as they are not suitable as pets, although of course like our traditional breeds, some no doubt will be kept as pets. They are meat and lard pigs first and foremost. The biggest danger to our breeds are people who don't breed pedigree registered pigs and then sell them as purebred for a pittence to people who haven't done their research.
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I hardly think it will impact on the situation with the traditional breeds which will struggle whether or not there is a different breed about. Did the mangalistas damage our breeds, not to my knowledge. I am pleased that other countries accept our pigs, I believe over twenty large blacks went to Germany.
How do you know there will be no impact, somebody who keeps mangas may have kept another of the rare British breeds, the reason the LB's went abroad is probably because they can't sell 'em here! I don't agree with your export theory either, for every pig we export we import another few hundred thousand! Hardly making a dent in the balance of payments is it? Plus had you noticed on this website and many others people are struggling to sell weaners and any pig for that matter, times are hard. If people have to buy why can't the Britsh support Britain these days or is too much to ask in these politically correct times? I'm not getting at you personnally but the British psyche in general, we never support our own and thats why this country is in the S**t is in now. Pigs are just another rung on the slippery snake downwards.
Mandy :( :pig:
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Hi
I know you are not getting at me personally :) I never thought that. You are entitled to your opinion of course you are, and I will answer your worries the best I can. I put it up just to let people know for interest and in case there are people reading this who want to know more. I knew that I would have people who were concerned, however this is something I want to do. I am quite happy that I support as much as possible the traditional breeds and everything british so I don't feel guilty about undertaking this project.
On another note, I was interested in hearing that we import a few hundred thousand, which breeds are there and where an earth of they, thats a heck of alot of pigs for every pig we export. I believe they LB were sold to Germany becuase someone wanted to start a herd over there and they wanted this particular bloodline. The breeder concerned sells LB very well over here and shows them as well so I don't think it was a case of only selling them over there becuase he couldn't sell them over here.
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AS you say its something you want to do and fair game each to his own. I hope it all goes to plan for you and there are no repercussions.
Best mandy :pig:
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Thanks Mandy, I will post pictures of them when they come.
:)
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I've seen photo's of them - funny looking pigs (but I've always been attracted to fugly things ;) ;D) interesting to hear that they are primarily a meat pig, I know someone, who knows someone (abroad somewhere) who keeps them and I was under the impression that they were more pets but I'm maybe getting the complete wrong end of the stick ;)
Could you possibly pm me your contact details as I think I might know some folk who would be interested - certainly they'd be interested to hear there were some coming :thumbsup:
I don't think importing 'new' breeds to the UK is going to stop people keeping the breeds already here - I kept Kune Kunes as my first permanent residents, and have since added Large Blacks, Berkshires, Tamworths & OSB's into the equation - if it hadn't been for the funny, furry little imports I might never have gone down the road I have :-\ A bit of publicity for pigs in the UK (as long as it's positive) surely isn't a bad thing and might even attract a few new keepers along the way ?
Karen :-*
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Karen sent you a message
Karen the people you are talking about do keep them as pets, but they also keep all their other large pigs as pets as well, although they are now keeping some meishans back for meat. My pigs will be marketed only as meat pigs, god forbid if we start having another pet pig problem.
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http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/meishn/ (http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/swine/meishn/)
i think i will stick to my british rare breeds though they need all the help they can get.
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Hi
On another note, I was interested in hearing that we import a few hundred thousand, which breeds are there and where an earth of they, thats a heck of alot of pigs for every pig we export.
Commercial Danish pigs where do you think all your Danish bacon comes from and the cheap 26p a pack sausages in TescAsburys ::)
Speaking of pet pig problem as well last night on our local news an animal shelter in newcastle was on to say they were full up and couldn't take any more, their most unusal residents were 3 so-called micro pigs - they were the size of year old GOS!!!
Like Chickenfeed i'll stick to conserving British breeds.
mandy :pig:
ps before any clever nelly says it i know that all pigs orignated zillions of years ago from the far east!
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yes the micro pig problem is never going to go away is it. Its a pity not more proper pig breeders got involved in the few people trying to put a stop to it. They would have been more weight behind it then.
Mandy, don't the commercial guys actually breed their own in the uk or am i wrong in this. You were talking about hundreds of thousands of pigs being imported into the uk for every uk pig exported. Am I wrong in thinking you are saying hundreds of thousands of danish pigs are exported into this country. I know we get danish bacon but I thought just the bacon etc was imported not the pigs. Surely to import hundreds of thousands of pigs like you say would cost millions, not cost effective surely to the commercial pig owner Confused (mind you not difficult to confuse me)
i have this vision now of literally the UK being swamped by hundreds of thousands of pigs coming across on boats after all if this is the case for every pig that we export and a fair number do get exported every year, to nigeria, japen, germany, US to name a few countries we would be swamped surely ;)
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Hundreds of thousands may be a slight exageration but certainly thousands, they buy them as finished pigs and process them here in the uk then because of our pathetic labelling laws they can be classed as 'British' bacon, ham etc. Check out a pack of 'Wiltshire cured' ham for example from the supermarket it will say processed in the uk from EEC sourced meat! Legally they can call it British same as the cheapo sausages, cheap pigs from abroad kept in scurrilous conditions processed here, No wonder British pig farmers who have the highest welfare standards and keep to the EEC laws (unlike some others we can mention) have a hard time making money when this is what they're up against. People are easily duped by labelling into believing they're buying a British product Sainsburys sell a pack of Ham which says it supports Help for Heroes so you would assume it was British ham...WRONG.. its imported. If only people would spend time reding the labels on thier purchases i'm sure some people would change their buying habits.
Mandy :pig:
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They were at the front of the queue when they handed out ugly and went back for seconds. :o I think I will stick to supporting British rare breeds.
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Ha ha berkshire boy, you are not wrong there, but don't judge a book by its cover. if the meat is good, thats good enough for me. But yes they hit every branch on the way down the ugly tree. They have super personalities though ;)
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I dunno ::) I feel as if I have a particular affinity with the one in this top photo ;) :D :D :D
And if you want ugly......how about the Red River Hog ? :o ;D
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Hundreds of thousands may be a slight exageration but certainly thousands, they buy them as finished pigs and process them here in the uk then because of our pathetic labelling laws they can be classed as 'British' bacon, ham etc. Check out a pack of 'Wiltshire cured' ham for example from the supermarket it will say processed in the uk from EEC sourced meat! Legally they can call it British same as the cheapo sausages, cheap pigs from abroad kept in scurrilous conditions processed here, No wonder British pig farmers who have the highest welfare standards and keep to the EEC laws (unlike some others we can mention) have a hard time making money when this is what they're up against. People are easily duped by labelling into believing they're buying a British product Sainsburys sell a pack of Ham which says it supports Help for Heroes so you would assume it was British ham...WRONG.. its imported. If only people would spend time reding the labels on thier purchases i'm sure some people would change their buying habits.
Mandy :pig:
now this is a subject close to my heart we at ladies in pigs spend alot of time trying to support british pork and explain how the supermarket labels work but as soon as we think we are getting somewhere the suppermarkets pull a fast one, like the support for heros imported pork it comes labeled with the union jack but on closer inspection the small print tells you of its non uk origin and lets face it not everyone goes around checking the origin of every purchase. the other week i went into our local butchers he had all the posters up british pork & bacon, english lamb and beef :o and then i saw his danish bacon in the cabinet i know the butcher and when he asked why the confused look i pointed it out to him he said he brought in in because it was cheap, i came home minus my intended purchase one more shop to cross off my list.
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now this is a subject close to my heart we at ladies in pigs spend alot of time trying to support british pork and explain how the supermarket labels work but as soon as we think we are getting somewhere the suppermarkets pull a fast one, like the support for heros imported pork it comes labeled with the union jack but on closer inspection the small print tells you of its non uk origin and lets face it not everyone goes around checking the origin of every purchase.
I have to agree that the supermarkets aren't great at truthful labelling or 'artwork' on and around the products. How many folk would buy pork or eggs if they saw intensive, indoor conditions ??? But Mr TescAsburys just slaps a photo of some happy outdoor animals on and (the majority) of people assume it's been living in a field and happy with that buy some. The fact that some of them call their pork outdoor when only the sows and unweaned piglets live outside, shows how sneaky they are when it comes to 'image' selling ::)
What can be done Chickenfeed ? Would it take a FSA intervention on labelling or would they still find a way round it do you think ? This might be a topic best started on a seperate thread ? I suspect there will be many views on it ;)
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Hundreds of thousands may be a slight exageration but certainly thousands, they buy them as finished pigs and process them here in the uk then because of our pathetic labelling laws they can be classed as 'British' bacon, ham etc. Check out a pack of 'Wiltshire cured' ham for example from the supermarket it will say processed in the uk from EEC sourced meat! Legally they can call it British same as the cheapo sausages, cheap pigs from abroad kept in scurrilous conditions processed here, No wonder British pig farmers who have the highest welfare standards and keep to the EEC laws (unlike some others we can mention) have a hard time making money when this is what they're up against. People are easily duped by labelling into believing they're buying a British product Sainsburys sell a pack of Ham which says it supports Help for Heroes so you would assume it was British ham...WRONG.. its imported. If only people would spend time reding the labels on thier purchases i'm sure some people would change their buying habits.
Mandy :pig:
Yes I think we need to be on a new thread - but before we go, please can I confirm... Mandy, the situation you describe sounds as though live pigs are being imported then slaughtered and processed here? Is that what you mean?
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Mandy calm down or you will be getting barred as i did
what possible use can they be there is no lard market in the UK goggling them a lb of cooked ham sells for $80 in America there importation can only be to make money how can you guarantee that they will not end up as pets the red river hoggs are at Edinburgh zoo
British pigs are exported to Europe and re imported processed(cheale meats do the killing)
any pigs coming back to the UK will be in refrigerated lorries
Britain is not self sufficient in pork and is driven by the price in Europe :farmer:
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I dunno ::) I feel as if I have a particular affinity with the one in this top photo ;) :D :D :D
Having looked at available pictures would wonder if they suffer from eye problems like shar pei dogs do with all the folds around the eye area
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Well of course we all do things to make money, Robert. your tamworths and your other breeds, I don't suppose you give them away and I would like to think and hope you make a profit of sorts. And of course there is no large lard market, but if you want something a bit different and want to have a go, they do make good lard pigs. To be honest, I don't understand people getting their knickers in a twist for a project that I am doing. I support and breed traditional breeds and have done for over 10 years including large blacks, OSB GOS and tamworths, so if I want to dip my toes into breeding meishans then I will. I personally feel there is an even limited market for these pigs then traditional breeds but who knows, it will be exciting to see and I am looking forward to them coming over. If anyone is interested, I can send more photos and also photos of the meat which is highly marbled.
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not my nickers in a twist bet you are not selling them at the same price you get for all the rest of your pigs
nobody is stopping you getting and breeding maishans and if you cant be enthusiastic about them then what is your point
if they were quick maturing to slaughter weight then yes
the conditions we have had in Scotland there pot bellies would be trailing in the muck :farmer:
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No you are right we won't be selling them at the same price which is £65 for meat pigs and £85 for breeding, we have yet to set a price, however I am keen to recoup the cost of importing them quite quickly which is quite alot, that to me makes good business sense. I also don't have to justify the price, we look at the costs and set it from there, a bit like you do really with your pigs surely, unless you sell at a loss.
And they do take a while to mature for meat, which all adds to the taste of them. Not too sure what you mean about the enthusiatic comment.
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there are to many parallels with the micro pigs as others have pointed out
no lard market
slow growing =cost more to slaughter weight
cant realy see the point o yes i can
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ha ha, got to laugh robert : :D have you had dealings with micro owners, they wouldn't even entertain looking at the mishans never mind buying them, believe you me, they want pretty colourful things, even the piglets are ugly.
You are able to slaughter meishans at around 6- 9 months which is when you take yours approximately isn't it robert ;). Any longer and you run the risk of too much fat. So what point can you see ;) and I suspect that most will want to try the meat rather than buy them for lard, which similar to our own breeds is wonderful tasting and excellent for joints.
And Realistically people are not going to spend thousands for an animal that is going to end up in the pot :)
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one thing saying you can slaughter them at 6-9 months but at what weight you have to have age weight living and dead then boned out weight
it is hard enough to get them to part with even the prices you have quoted good quality pedigree pigs cant find homes in these hard times :farmer:
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there are to many parallels with the micro pigs as others have pointed out
no lard market
slow growing =cost more to slaughter weight
cant realy see the point o yes i can
I don't think these will be marketed in the same way as Micro's and Rispain is not a novice caught up on a whim ;)
Mangalitza's are also considered a 'lard' pig - folk still keep them, everybody's got a favourite :love: :pig: :love:
Slow growing doesn't neccessarily mean more cost - Kunes being a prime example of that :thumbsup:
I know this is going to cause ructions, but I don't see a problem here ???
I'm hugely passionate about preserving our rare breeds, before anyone thinks I'm fickle - remember Palacerigg ;) ;D
IMHO a new breed coming into the UK (especially in the low numbers spoken about here) isn't going to have a detrimental effect on existing herds. I'm fairly sure there is Meishan in the commercial herd in the UK somewhere (in dilute form) but having pedigree animals, away from their country of origin provides back-up genetics which could prove very useful if there was any need for re-importation (in the case of a major disease outbreak, for example)
Look at the numbers of pigs already here, which weren't here originally or, which have left and come back (thinking Hampshires especially ;)) surely import & export of pedigree pigs (not talking huge numbers of commercail porkers shipped from the EU) is a good thing for the breed & breeders ? And it's not always a money driven thing ::) As I've said before (and I'm sure almost everyone will agree) if I wanted to be cash-rich I wouldn't be keeping pigs ;) :D :thumbsup:
Karen :wave:
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Everyone is entitled to have their favourite breed of pig, for if we all had the same breed there would not be 14 breeds under the bpa.
My personal opinion of them is they are bloody ugly, and would never have them.
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I agree Robert with some of what you say. In my opinion people are relucant to part with that sort of money I think in areas where they have a choice from quite a few pigs around. I found that when we lived in Devon, we could not command that sort of money only becuase there were so many cheap pigs around selling for around £25-30. Plus of course it was a few years ago when we were there so they were cheaper anyway but the principle still lies. I found by building up a reputation and not producing many litters a year, it was easier to sell the weaners. Unfortuanately unless pigs are all sold around similar price and we are all singing from the same hymn sheet, we will always have this problem. I know I will not get fancy prices for the meishans, I won't even try. But certainly they will be priced at a higher rate than traditional breeds, really to enable me to get my money back reasonable quickly for importing them and paying the vets over in Holland. But they will not be priced unrealistically like the micros were. I am aiming for a completely different market to the micros and even maybe the traditional breeds thats why I think they it is a limited market and it will be interesting to see how they do, selling wise.
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karen, I agree. Two sows is not going to affect the traditional market. There is limited semen in the country and it costs thousands to get some more certified to enable me to bring some fresh over and use it. Yes if it goes well, we might bring a boar over, but this basically is a project that I think is limited if not for anything else for the reasons Lill has said, they are bloody ugly. However they do have super meat, and fantastic personalities and they are good for lard, the best in the world. So there might be the odd person who fancies keeping a couple to then experiment with the meat/lard. They are selling well on the continent so we will see how they dp here Apperentely many years ago there were pure bred meishans in this country for quite a while. I am in touch with a breeder in the US and he told me that. If anyone is interested in knowing more just message me.
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Good luck to you Rispain, it looks to me like you've identified a potential niche and are enthusiastic about the project. :thumbsup:
Time will tell whether there's a market and whether it makes business sense, who really knows?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that - we have a hankering for Middle Whites because we like the way they look, despite others thinking they are ugly, and I'm sure there will be keepers who are smitten with the Meishans who want to try something just a bit different alongside their British breeds. :)
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No thanks , everything foreign is being forced on us at the expence of native breeds, huge continental double muscled beef, with no flavour, fruit and veg tasting of nothing, asparagus out of season, tasting of nothing, We do not need another so called super productive animal that is all fat and no flavour. are these the ones that gave us the phrase " pig ugly ?"
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For anyone who is interested as the mesihan is a traditional breed albeit not of this country, the meat is fantastic tasting with good marbling that adds to the succelent taste. As you would expect for a pig that takes as long to grow as our own pigs. I will see if I can post a picture of the meat on here.
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I think they're kinda cute :)
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i have posted a pictue, hopefully it will come out ok.
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meishan weaners
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I don't want to get caught up in the controversy but I think the weaners look lovely
Sally
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I don't want to get caught up in the controversy but I think the weaners look lovely
Sally
Oh Sally you're right they're kinda ugly cute i suppose and i started the controversy, i was in an ill temper looking for a fight yesterday and poor rispain got all the punches for which i apologise if i caused offence however i still stand as Tizala puts it that we don't do enuff to support anything british.
Bit karma today
Mandy :pig:
ps HH & RW have sent you both message!
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Mandy don't worry I wasn't offended at all. I fully expected some people not to agree with what I am doing. I like to think I support british but i would just like to try this for a while. It may go tits up (am I allowed to say that :) and I lose shed loads of money but hopefully I will recoup the money spent anyway. i was taken with them when I met them on a trip, they are nice pigs albeit very very ugly ;)
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No thanks , everything foreign is being forced on us at the expence of native breeds
What's being forced upon anyone here, and how can you possibly say introducing Meishans will be at the expense of native breeds?!
It may be that over time a small number of keepers of native breeds will reduce their numbers to accommodate Meishans, but equally it may be that the continued promotion of native breeds mean their numbers will increase. How can you possibly know unless you've got a crystal ball, in which case you should focus it on the footie results and make a fortune. :)
Thank god you weren't the one to evaluate the potential of the 'foreign' potato! ;) :D
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I keep out of quarrels as a rule but I should worry about all those wrinkles in the hot weather :) They look like an ideal breeding place for maggots. Would you have clean inside them as you would Pugs and Shar-Pei?
I think I'll stick to Kunes for the time being with the occasional couple of British rare breeds :)
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remember they are coming from Holland, which is very similar to our climate in England. They do not have any problems like that. The only problems which are as one post suggested can be eye problems, which is why it is important to choose the right breeding stock. Wrinkles should not be too close to the eyes especially the one in middle.
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china is an importer of pork vast tonnages they are or have imported breeding stock from the UK and most probably the rest of the world UK expertise will go out to china to improve there own production as has happened with other developing farming nations if the meishans were that good what are they importing UK stock for bigger carcase weights ? quicker growth to killing weight ? cost less per kilo to feed ?
the cutsie factor does not come into it unless the intended future owners have money to chuck away
but look on the bright side if you cant move them on you will be dining like a lord yum yum :farmer:
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Robert, i have no doubt that i will move the first few litters as I already have quite a few people wanting to know about the litters etc some serious enquiries through this forum and once they are marketed I expect them to move quickly at least the first couple of litters But thank you for your concern. As for the chinese etc etc, I couldn't give a fig about why or where or whatever reason they are not keeping them, the sow and boar originated in Austria and Gemany by the way. It is of no relevance to my project therefore why should I concern myself about the reasons behind why the chinese do things. I'm really not doing this project to worry about carcass weight or how quickly they grow or how much it will cost me to feed them ( I already know that anyway), you are not in pigs 10 years and not have an idea as to how much it will cost to feed them. But it is kind of you to show your concern about such matters, however I think you are rather missing the point as to why I am bringing them over. Its not to make thousands, which I doubt I will anyway, its not to improve carcasses from other breeds, believe it not, I am actually doing it because I can and I like the pigs and judging from the messages I have been receiving so do other people. Has for cute, I would say the piglets are cute, but nah not the parents :D
Anyway I think that will do debating the meshians, its getting boring now and we are not achieving anything by it. I will answer any serious questions about them, but I'm finished arguing points with you Robert - sorry ;)
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strong words rispain
how can you determin the cost of feeding them you don't even have them yet
i don't criticise your record in pigs so why do you criticise me
i have done costings on what it takes to feed the pigs that we have chosen to breed
and we have done comparisons on liveweight gain with other breeders also foreign
maybe i am missing the point of your importation maybe your fig reference sums it up
but they don't stay piglets for ever as the micro buyers found out :farmer:
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::)
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I agree withRobert entirely. Openly criticizing his records on pig keeping and being sarcastic is wrong.
If you are so blasé about why the Chinese are getting rid of there Meishans, surely you're on a fools errand. Novelty will make you money for a few years and then all of a sudden there will be no buyers. Wading into a smallholders forum is probably not the place to start for a farming revolution: many on here are passionate about rare breeds and the conservation of them as you sort of are (breeding your own rare breeds for 10years) and sort of the antithesis of. The Meishan only threatens our heritage and our way of farming by dilution.
You may know the growth rate (even if you don't have them- stats and figures are all well and good but practicality of these figures are more often than not cods wallop,) but as I have done research on the breed the breed it is re-known for it's breeding prowess but very little else- in fact they have been steadily decreasing in popularity in the USA because they are so fat and are so slow growing. The commercial boys out cross with Landrace and other commercail breeds to form the Meidam which is frighfully fast growing with massive litters, this however isn't what your project seems to be doing. Introducing a breed for "the hell of it" just seems wrong as the breed is in no threat of extinction or any other threatening circumstance.
If your going to have any popularity, slamming people on personnel grounds on the internet is not the thing to do. Slinging mud isn't the answer.
On you point about they are meat pigs and then the posted photo of the meat- it isn't marbled, it's fat, glowing fat. I'm all for, fatter meat than the supermarket stuff but I like to have something red. It is laughable.
The Meishan is a novelty breed and will inhabit a similar role to that of the Pot Belly Pig unless you want to start a vast breeding scheme or have someone willing to do it with your two sows ::) And anyway it's already been done.
If it was to the benefit of the breed as in it was at risk of dieing out, or had something to add to british farming then I'd be all for it. Unfortunetly it fulfills neither.
I wasn't going to post anything but when you answer logical questions and worries with utter balls, you sort of get what you've just read.
I don't mind if I get barred for my closing statement:
I would normally wish you the best of luck but instead I hope it fails miserably
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First of all show me where I criticise robert and his record keeping, i haven't even mentioned about how he keeps his pigs or his record keeping. I can show you quite a few times where he is being sarcastic to me in an underhand way. Farming revolution, where on earth do you get that from. I put an advert up about the meishans, nowhere did I put I wanted to change the world of pig farming. I expected interest and debate,but this ......and show me the mud slinging for goodness sake. I am not going to get in row with you over the meshians, its ridiculurs, I will answer any questions, but I do not have to hand technical stuff but if you want to have information then ask me and I will get back to you. For goodness sake, does this go on with every new project or idea that dares to be put on here. As I say show me where I have slated Robert. I would like to point out that I have been breeding rare breeds for 10 years, I have organised rare breed pigs at shows where there has been none before to promote them and we have done pig courses for over five years resulting in more new people buying pedigree rare breeds and joining the BPA, plus I have done my utmost to stop the micro pig trade including been faced with court orders for my efforts as I felt the trade was deplorable which is probably more than you have done. It is the easiest thing in the world to have a faceless go at someone and criticise them, if you want to criticise me, telephone me. I do not feel guilty about my project and I feel very shocked that I come on here and what started as a simple advert has turned into this, although thank goodness it is only a small minority that seems to be acting in this way..
I would also like to add that I have been a member of this forum for over three years but I can't remember either my username or password due to not having been active for a while, so I re-registered under a different name with a different password. So I am not now wading in to a forum, I waded in a long time ago.
Thank you for comments that I fail miserably, I can't really compete with that nastiness,
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Have to admit the weaners are kinda cute but not for me I love the Tamworth and Traditional Welsh pig :pig: :pig: :wave:
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Actually I find them rather cute, in an extreme ugly way; a bit like large, lumpy, roman nosed cobs! Me I'm a Thoroughbred horse person, but blimey wouldn't life be boring if we all liked/kept/bred the same livestock. :thumbsup:
What I don't understand is the foreign objection. Most people drive foreign cars, take foreign holidays and use foreign mobile phone/computers. Where were all you objectors when UK industry was falling to the wayside? In Currys buying a Sony TV ?
What we are discussing here is one person importing a couple of sows, it's hardly going to change the pig keeping ideals of the whole country ! Relax and enjoy the photo's ;D
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No thanks , everything foreign is being forced on us at the expence of native breeds
What's being forced upon anyone here, and how can you possibly say introducing Meishans will be at the expense of native breeds?!
It may be that over time a small number of keepers of native breeds will reduce their numbers to accommodate Meishans, but equally it may be that the continued promotion of native breeds mean their numbers will increase. How can you possibly know unless you've got a crystal ball, in which case you should focus it on the footie results and make a fortune. :)
Thank god you weren't the one to evaluate the potential of the 'foreign' potato! ;) :D
No , but I was right about tobacco... :wave:
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First of all show me where I criticise robert and his record keeping, i haven't even mentioned about how he keeps his pigs or his record keeping. I can show you quite a few times where he is being sarcastic to me in an underhand way. Farming revolution, where on earth do you get that from. I put an advert up about the meishans, nowhere did I put I wanted to change the world of pig farming. I expected interest and debate,but this ......and show me the mud slinging for goodness sake. I am not going to get in row with you over the meshians, its ridiculurs, I will answer any questions, but I do not have to hand technical stuff but if you want to have information then ask me and I will get back to you. For goodness sake, does this go on with every new project or idea that dares to be put on here. As I say show me where I have slated Robert. I would like to point out that I have been breeding rare breeds for 10 years, I have organised rare breed pigs at shows where there has been none before to promote them and we have done pig courses for over five years resulting in more new people buying pedigree rare breeds and joining the BPA, plus I have done my utmost to stop the micro pig trade including been faced with court orders for my efforts as I felt the trade was deplorable which is probably more than you have done. It is the easiest thing in the world to have a faceless go at someone and criticise them, if you want to criticise me, telephone me. I do not feel guilty about my project and I feel very shocked that I come on here and what started as a simple advert has turned into this, although thank goodness it is only a small minority that seems to be acting in this way..
I would also like to add that I have been a member of this forum for over three years but I can't remember either my username or password due to not having been active for a while, so I re-registered under a different name with a different password. So I am not now wading in to a forum, I waded in a long time ago.
Thank you for comments that I fail miserably, I can't really compete with that nastiness,
::)
I apologise for my choice of words in my last sentence. However the rest of my statement I stand by. I disagree with bringing in a breed for the sake of it- simple as.
I'm surprised you thought that there wouldn't be people who would disagree with your project - as someone who has bred rare breed pigs for ten years and have organised pigs at BPA surely you knew that people are protective of rare breeds- which have a tough enough time as you know.
To your logic your not allowed to argue against something you disagree with- well there you go.
That's about it,
A faceless person otherwise going by the name of Peter
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Well Peter, I still at a loss to see where I have criticised Robert, and I am now at a lost to see where I have put about not expecting people to disagree with me. In fact may i suggest you are not reading the posts properly, becuase if you had you would have seen this in one of my earlier posts
I fully expected some people not to agree with what I am doing. I like to think I support british but i would just like to try this for a while. It may go tits up (am I allowed to say that :) and I lose shed loads of money but hopefully I will recoup the money spent anyway. i was taken with them when I met them on a trip, they are nice pigs albeit very very ugly ;)
S
It is hard to take your comments seriously when they are incorrect.
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I agree withRobert entirely. Openly criticizing his records on pig keeping and being sarcastic is wrong.
If your going to have any popularity, slamming people on personnel grounds on the internet is not the thing to do. Slinging mud isn't the answer.
Bioman, where has Rispain personally attacked anyone? You're welcome to your personal views about the venture, and to express them here, but these statements are completely unfounded as far as I can see, and actually amount to a personal attack on Rispain.
I would normally wish you the best of luck but instead I hope it fails miserably
You should have kept that to yourself, it's most definitely not in the spirit of these forums and not the sentiment we expect from our members. >:(
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:applause: Dan :thumbsup:
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I'm appalled at the way some folk on this forum write at times :(
In fact, I'm completely disgusted that this level of rudeness (hoping someone fails >:() and unfounded accusations (I see no post from Rispain criticising Robert) ???
Time for a reality check folks ;)
Someone is doing something that they feel enthusiastic about, bringing 2 pregnant sows is hardly going to bring the British Pig Herd to it's knees ::)
This used to be a friendly forum where folk could ask advice, share experiences and advertise stuff without it kicking off into a major arguement :-\
Bring back the happy TAS 'family', instead of the bickering, one-upmanship and downright unwelcoming one that it's become latey :o
Dan - it might be time for your big stick :D Or perhaps a locked topic ;) This is fast becoming a slagging match :(
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Dan's statement is usually the one before somebody is banned usually me
i do wish people would stop skim reading they miss the point of the debate and confusion sets in now i have to trawl the posts extract the points highlight them and post
anyway back to meishans a good point on potatoes and tobacco but i am assuming meishans were around when the Neapolitan pigs were imported if our forefathers did not rate them why the sudden interest
i did ask pertinent questions about them and did not get answers simple ones that should have been answered easily just to buy something because it is dog ugly when mature is no real basis for a solid future
importing from Holland is far easier than direct importing from china but had they come from china there would probably be more confidence in them
yes Linda you did place them as an advert some people put on adverts and get no responce i would say you have had good mileage from this this one i think you are counting your chickens before they are hatched by your import dates am i right in thinking that the gilts are not in pig yet :farmer:
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Oh Dan, maybe I would have prevented the Irish potatoe famine.....!
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It was me that kicked all this off but as Bioman(Peter) says some of us are particularly protective about our own struggling native and rare breeds and see this importation as an unecessary escapade when many pig keepers are in straightened times and there are already copious numbers of novelty pigs in rescue centres up and down the country. I see it as only a money making scheme and exploitation of these animals for the publicity they will bring the keeper and the money they will no doubt be planning to make (these weaners ain't gonna sell for £25 down the market! ::)) i hope the pigs remain healthy and happy in their new set up and i'm sure the local welfare people to them will be keeping a close eye on them for any problems and that they have long lives.
Mandy :pig:
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Hi Robert
No they are not in pig yet as they are too young, they will be AI in April. We then have to wait at least four weeks before we bring them over which will be May/June and when the dutch vets will let them go. Obviously we have taken advice on this from them. The piglets will be due September (ish). Then obviously it will be eight weeks later when we can sell them. Not a good time to sell them but nothing we can do about that. Yes I agree I am possibly counting my chickens, its a worry believe you me that something goes wrong and I lose the piglets. However I was sounding the interest out not actually going to be taking orders as that is tempting fate. With any new venture it is always a worry in case it falls flat but when you have potentially 30 piglets to feed, it is more of a worry. I know to a farmer like yourself, unless you can see a valid commercial reason for bringing them over, it would not make sense. But there is no commercial reason other than recouping my money back and of course hopefully make a little profit but although this is normal business sense, some people on here seem to think i shouldn't be thinking of profit. I can only say to that, their business must be running at a loss if they don't think profit is a good thing. Ithink and hope that there will be interest in them but I don't have a clue how they will sell initially or in the long term. It could take off or it could fall flat on its back. I will be guided by the interest as to what I do with them in the long term. As far as my comment was concerned about I don't care a fig about the reasons why they are not be kept or whatever by the Chinese, is becuase it really isn't relevent to what I have planned. I am not planning to take over the pig production world, I don't think they will be bought as pets, although you know as well as I do that people often end up keeping pigs as pets becuase they don't have the heart to slaughter them. I have had good mileage I agree, hopefully when they come over I will be getting alot more, becuase lets face it, as a pig they are unique and I fully expect some smallholders to buy one or two to go alongside their other pigs as one post suggested. I am going to have to work hard at marketing them thats for sure. And of course I do want them sold asap to allow me to recoup my costs. As you say the traditional breed market is struggling but can you honestly think the meishan will take over from some of our loveliest breeds, I think not. So on that front, I don't think anyone should worry. i do think as well that there are people out there no matter how much you hate it or disagree with it, cross traditional breeds to experiement with the meat. We ourselves have experimented for our own consumption crossing our own breeds, the mangalista with the large black was exceptionally tasty. But please don't think by that comment I am advocating trying to dilute the traditional breeds, I am merely saying it goes on and will go on regardless of whether the meshian is in this country or not.
Why would there be more confidence in a pig that came direct from china, in fact according to one post, there is a disease worry possibly attached. Years ago - sorry not sure of the date, 25 meishans came over to Europe from china (similar to some of our breeds who were crossed with asian pigs) and the majority of meishans in europe are descendants of theose 25. Don't shout at me if I am a bit wrong there as I was told by the breeder in Holland that fact. The US is still using meshian seman in some commercial herds although as one post put it, it is declining, however we know the pig industry to be driven by need and fashion, one breed is in vogue one day but not the next hence the reason we lost some of our traditional breeds. I know it is hard to take on board and understand reasons behind bringing them over, but its a case of I want try my own meat from them, have a play with the lard and fat as in experiment not playing with it :D and generally keep them as they are really nice pigs. I don't think the fact they are ugly comes into it, the middle white is not exactly a pretty pig and that sells. If people are taken by them they will buy them regardless of what they look like or indeed because of what they look like.
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Mandy why on earth would the animal health be keeping a close eye on them, they are no different from our other pigs we have had. They are not some precious animal that will be living in an ivory tower, they will be living in an ark in a paddock like any other bog standard pig, Your right about the £25, anyone who sells pigs for £25 needs their head examining and it really gets me angry when you see traditional breeds selling £25-£35, thesebreeders are the curse of the traditional breed industry and in my opinion doing breeders as a whole no favours whatsoever
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Mandy why on earth would the animal health be keeping a close eye on them,
Merely from the point of view that they are unusual, imported and because they are classed as livestock they don't have to undergo the rigourous quarantine that domestic pets do. It would be the least i would expect if they were mine however i stand to be corrected.
Mandy :pig:
Ps don't all pigs live in ivory towers? mine do ;)
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But I know three people who have imported, they never even got a visit, although i fully expect them to come out initially maybe, They are going in a paddock next to Large blacks but I doubt they will keep an eye on them, just the usual yearly checks. ;D They will be taken to shows next year as part of our stand.
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Well i shall look forward with interest to seeing them.
Mandy :pig:
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so what you are saying is the meishans in Europe are not true to breed and yes Asia has disease problems that is why they are massive importers and the price is increasing in Australia
it is very risky times to be going into a new pig venture although some commercial pig farms are expanding
the price is governed by various factors the biggest one was the dioxin scare in germany that put pigs right on there arse(now where did all that contaminated pork end up i wonder) then you have the popularity of pigs people were breeding with no market for there piglets and faced with the cost of feeding (i keep telling everbody you start with 2 you then get 22 and before they are finished you can have 44 or even 66) and no outlet for them it is no surprise that breeders were selling as low as £5 a piglet as i have said before pedigree pigs and good ones at that are failling to sell at anything more than meat prices £350 was an excellent price at the sales and that is only really the price of a carcass :farmer:
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Rispain :trophy: You have my undying admiration for keeping your cool.
Come on guys, HH is right - this isn't going to bring the British pig industry to its knees. Sounds like Rispain already supports British rare and traditional breeds and this is a wee personal project - can't see the Meishan being the next Danish Landrace, can you?
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You're doing a peter, ;D Robert, not reading the posts properly. Where have I said they are not true to breed. Look do you mind if we stop this now, i don't see the point of arguing over every little point. I have done my research, going over there, speaking with breeders of meishans all over the world including china and the US. If I lose my money, well its my money to lose. Its not going to effect you whatsoever.
What would be nice dispite how you feel is to wish me luck as a fellow pig breeder of tradtional breeds, luck in my new venture. You have made your point loud and clear, now can we move on please.
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Mandy, you will always be welcome :)
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sorry just have to come back there are people that see your venture as good go for it go get them girl
but there have been problems with importations of other breeds and serious problems
it is one thing to buy an animal that looks like the description but will they breed true to form is there a herd book for them how many generations does it go back does china have herd books can they all be traced back to there country of origin iron age pigs that is a classic example derived from crossing wild boar with Tamworth's the first cross is iron age the next cross with tamworth is 75% tamworth and so on it may look like an iron age but is getting near pure to tamworth
pietrains they were introduced and importers sold there stock as being able to be registered in Britain that ended up being an almost disaster
as the tamworth rep for Scotland (Lillian) it is surprising the amount of people that buy alleged pedigree pigs without paper work then spit the dummy out when they realise they have been conned
i do hope you can satisfy any genuine intended purchasers and have found an outlet for your talents but look on the bright side if nobody replied to your posting you would have been equally miffed and not nearly 6oo views publicity of any kind is still publicity and you are world wide on here :farmer:
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ok one last reply to your robert. I totally and utterly agree with what you say about the problems. The problem of buying pedgree stock which is not pedigree, is an ongoing problem, which I believe has got massive, however that said, I think the BPA can do more to regulate the boars etc, to justify their huge fee. Rember we are talking just two sows that is part of a project that may only last a year. Out of those two sows, (yes they can have up to 18 piglets), but only a tiny percentage of them will be sold as breeding stock if at all. The boars will obviously all be castrated. Of course there is always the risk that people will breed with the females, but to do that they would have to cross it with another breed. I or anyone else will never stop that with any of the breeds. It goes on all the time now unfortunately. Remember I will hold all the ltd seman and will only sell the seman to people who have bought from us breeding stock. I suspect initially i will be so terrified of selling crap as breeding stock that I will go overboard when it comes to making that choice. Until we have more confidence and get the experience, the plan is to send photos back to the breeders of each piglet and get their opinion on the wrinkles as that is a major factor in breeding stock before I make a choice, a bit like the underline in our breeds. As I said I have got to go on the interest as to whether we continue after these first litters. Yes it would be nice if the meshians caught on, but I can't honestly see it ever overtaking the traditional breeds. As Peter elequently put it, their meat is very fatty and marbled so to some people, even those who like fat, it may just be off-putting. We will just have to see. Ask me in a year and half if it has been a success and I will honestly tell you how we are doing. We can debate for ever what might or might not happen, but I am looking forward to them coming over and please feel free to come and see them if you like once they are here.
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The last word from one of the gilts coming over.
WHO ARE YOU CALLING UGLY!!!!
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are you still down the west coast
on the fat well it depends that year before we had mangalitsas at the highland show Cherilyn Anne had some produce on she had sliced cooked ham yes it was fat not unlike the picture so in the interest of all concerned i sampled some now i have to say i do not like fat and swithered will i wont i eventually sampling a slice the fat melted in your mouth and was very tasty but it all depends on how it is cooked or indeed in what it is cooked
the following year Dougie mac illwrath came on the stand and he was told if you are looking for a weekend of debauchery get one these hams he is based not that far from Cherilyn Anne
i hope all the posting has given you some idea of what will be asked and expected of the meshans
but what is the point of cutting all the boars and only selling a minority of gilts for breeding you are not going to end up with a gene pool 2 unrelated guilt's in pig to unrelated boars and you have the basis for them in this country even with the Hampshire's you have to watch what you are doing and that is with 13-15 registered breeders :farmer:
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To be honest Robert, i haven't thought that far ahead, it is scary i think. I don't want to create problems in the future with these pigs. I am going to take it one step at a time and just see how things go. Yes i am on the west coast. If ever you hold a suitable course for lard, fat etc. I would love to go on it or curing meat, that would be brilliant. I do want to experiment with the meat and fat etc. But I need guidance. As I say if you can point me in the right direction i would be very interested. And if you are interested, would love to put a couple on the Highland stand. next year.
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To add to the above, what I would like with this first two litters is to somehow tie the meishans in with a butchery course suitable for their carcass and the qualities the carcass brings. I am still researching about their meat, but so far I have heard nothing but good things and how versitile it is. I am playing with ideas at the moment and still doing my research but I would somehow like to bring learning about how best to use their carcass and the meshians together. So many people are interested in charcuterie but up here there are no courses whatsoever, At least I don't think so. I would like to get the meshians involved in somehow promoting this process and using their carcasses to promote it.
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Linda you are forgetting you are in Scotland there is just not the amount of disposable income to blow on courses short arms and deep pockets also the cost of the carcase (although you have never mentioned prices )the meat is going to be very expensive way beyond the canny Scots budget
qms were doing charcuterie courses did Karen down your way not tell you about them all the cooking schools do courses if you can afford them
anybody that is pushing a breed will tell you good things about them :farmer:
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No, I know that about scotland :D However I don't envisage these meshians just staying in Scotland, I would expect enquiries and possible sales about them from England as well. So relevent courses would not only be in Scotland, they would be in england as well. Just playing with ideas at the moment, Then again I may not sell any of the first litters in which case I will be drowning in the meat. Its going to be a case of coming up with ideas, discarding them and just talking to relevent people to see if any doors open for the first two litters. I agree cooking courses are stupid money and the majority of smallholders will not or even want to pay that sort of money. Thats why i would like a course for people interested in this sort of thing but affordable. No Karen never mentioned the courses, I presume you mean clash, not happy hippy. I don't really see her though. I will ask her about them next time we speak.
With respect to what you said about people who are selling them are pushing them, a lot information about them has not only come from breeders but universities, and forums just like this one but abroad, and it seems everyone who has a mesihan rates it as excellent meat. But each to their own I suppose. I will do a taster at shows next year, let people make their own judgement. ;D
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QMS ran a charcuterie course at the Edinburgh cook school before Xmas, I'd been planning to go but was on crutches following that bad fall (while sober ;))
As far as I know it was a free course and they are planning to have more.
As well as your lard products - consider soap making :thumbsup: I tried some made from Mangalitza fat and it was fabby ;D
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are you sure it was free karen its not like them to do free courses :farmer:
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karen, will you let me know if you hear of any other courses free or not free please. I am really keen to go.
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i would think this meat is the sort of thing likely to appeal to high end restaurants and marketed as such would probably be very successful as a high cost niche product. good luck.
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Hi Deep. that is what I am keen to do with the first litters I must admit. It is certainly an option to look seriously at. Going through my mind is the possibility that many of the piglets won't be up to standard to sell as breeding stock, so to sell them as meat pigs to smallholders, is a good idea, however after spending well over a thousand buying them and bringing them over, recouping the money in that case will take me a heck of alot of time. I obviously can't price them at much more than normal traditional pedigree meat pigs, so certainly for some of them I need to look at other options.
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if i had the only source of the meat, i would process it myself to add value, then market it high end, and cut out the middleman, thats a good business model.
selling weaners to other people to raise and process, wouldnt in the first instance recoup YOUR investment, however if you created demand for the meat first, your next weaners would be worth much more,let alone breeding stock.
this wouldnt affect trad breed pork sales because its an obviously saturated market, probably because of current import laws.
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Thank you deep, I really appreicate your advice and knowledge. Even if I created interested in the next litter, there is only a certain amount of money you can ask for meat pigs surely??
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that would depend on how much the meat was selling for. and that would depend on how it had been marketed, the meat appears to be something new and something new will always sell. how much for depends on the person your selling to. personally i think the moneys in the meat not the pigs. have you tried talking to a high end chinese restaurant for feedback, i mean really high end not just expensive?
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No I haven't done anything yet as I am still researching options and looking at ideas. I will certainly look further into this though.
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