The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Maxwell10 on January 13, 2012, 04:48:19 pm
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Hi all,
We are shortly going to be renting a 7acre field with stables. The land currently has 5 purpose built stables with concrete base etc. There is water on site and we are just in communication with the electric company re supply of electric. The owner of the land has said we can put a caravan on if we like. We are unable to find any rental property within our means close by at the moment. We currently rent our property but our landlady requires our rented property back and has issued a notice to quit. The newly rented field/stables is in a different area to which we live now. We do own our own property but that is currently rented out and to be honest is a good 40miles from the place we are going to be renting. The question i am asking is are we able to reside in the caravan on the site temp until we find alternative accomodation or is there a way we could put a static on to live in??
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The Caravan and Control of Development Act 1960 prohibits the use of land as a caravan site unless the occupier holds a site licence issued by the local authority. A site licence can only be issued subject to a vaild planning permission.
There are some exceptions: such as a caravan sited with the curtilage of a dwelling and its use is incidental to the dwelling. This means it cannot be occupied separately.
or
A single caravan sited for not more than two consecutive nights for a maximum of 28 days in any 12 months.
and a few others.
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If we put a touring caravan on the site how long would it be before the planning department made us move it? I have read lots of information on the internet and i am totally confused. If we are only renting the land and do not own it would it need to be the owner that applied for PP. On reading different forums now it sounds as though Planning would refuse straight away. Do we just risk putting a caravan on? The land owner obviously knows that there will be planning issues but isnt bothered i think he got retrospective for his stable block and hardstanding area. We are willing to pay council tax etc. It is just so frustrating we have a potential place to live and look after our animals but by the sounds are unable to do so. Is there any way around this situation?
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:wave:
Interesting thread as we are soon to be in a similar situation,we have just under 1.5 acres and our landlord has said about us putting on a log home or one of those prefab bungalows or similar and that we have to apply for the planning permission,he has advised though that it is easier to get passed than brick built properties?
His hint was to phrase "for agricultural use only",and that within the "deal" to have a shop to sell all our produce which would benefit the village?luckily he is happy to pay all the cost's involved,including the log home or whatever it is.
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the site has had planning issues already so the planners will be taking a closer look at it
anybody can apply for planning permission it does not need to be the owner
you could just site the caravan then state it is necessary to stay on site for security reasons but you will have to have valid instances of vandalism to that type of property and against horses in the area you may a couple of years out it by appealing there refusal if they refuse you wont know unless you try it :farmer:
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Yes leghorn i have read "that for agriculture" it can be slightly different. We only have horses at the moment though but would be willing to add additional members of the family if it helped. My son does produce the odd horse and then rehome/sell the horse. Could he be set up his own self employed business and say he needs to live there to secure the place and take care of the horses??? It is just so frustrating we will have no where to live in the next 6weeks! Our horses definately have we have sorted them out first. The field is near a road though so a caravan would be seen so i suspect would be reported quickly unless we put it down the side of the stables and erect somekind of cover that blends in with the stables to disguise it?? I would really like to do things properly and get consent i definately do not want to build on this land as i say we are long term renting the land and do not own it. We have limited funds and definately cannot afford to buy a ready made place, we are already in negative equity with the house we bought when the housing market was good and would not be able to get a big enough mortgage.
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Thanks Robert for your reply
So what would you say is the best thing to do?
Put the caravan on then apply for planning?
If planning is denied in the theory how long would it take the planners to enforce the static to be removed?
We have a tractor as well and to be honest would not like to leave the tractor unattended
Does anyone of any ideas what we could surround the caravan with so it blends in??
We just don,t want to spend what little money we have buying a cheap static (have seen one that was used for a self build that has been doubled glazed for a 1000 ono) and then have to either move it or have it demolished after a couple of months
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Where I live the field has had people living on it in caravans or converted vehicles, WITH landowners permission since 1995.
An eviction notice was issued 2006, but not enforced. We are currently in limbo waiting on a new planning application.
So yes there can be lots of planning issues, but hey I'm still here ;)
Incidentally, buy the book 'field to farm' it is really helpful :thumbsup:
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P.S i live in England, I have no idea about planning laws in Scotland ;)
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Thanks Colliewoman
We are in England as well
If asked to leave how long would we have does anyone know?
Do we put Caravan on then ask for planning???
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don't try to blend it in with disguises that is a loser for a kick of
charlie marshall of Aberdeen built two houses and disguised them with potato boxes they only found out when a child drew a painting of there house with the boxes in front they were to get demolished :farmer:
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By blending in Robert the stables are all brown with a cream stone wall and cream brick wall to the ends. What we are saying is would we be better off putting a fence around the caravan so it blends in with the stable block?
Would you apply for the planning first?
I have been looking on the net at Harrogate council and can see no applications which were permitted when it came to Statics/Caravans they were all refused.
In theory if we put a static on then applied and then appeal (assuming it was refused) what time limits are we looking at?
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I think you need to get a hold of a planning consultant.
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if your desperate for somewhere to go, and you have the landowners permission then id just do it, if you can get a static on the land for a grand then thats probably cheaper than finding a property to rent with deposits, months upfront etc etc. its then up to the council to get you off, or rehoused. how long you stay will depend on the fight you put up. my only concern would be that the landowner could be in for some grief as well, however, a succesful right to stay could be to the landowners benefit.
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planning consultants cost thousands and are not much better than advice given here or already gleaned
i used one years ago and could have saved a fortune all they done was rewrite what i had written and supply it in a folder but i did get my planning
i am not sure you have a winner here with your circumstances or even close you have another house you don't own the land and by your own admission short of money that is the one thing you need when battling the planners
:farmer:
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Thanks Colliewoman
We are in England as well
If asked to leave how long would we have does anyone know?
Do we put Caravan on then ask for planning???
Like I said, we got eviction notices in 2006 and are still here!
If you're asking what I would do, I would put the caravan on and see what happens, if you get hassle then apply.
I'm not saying that is good advice though ;D ;) ;)
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I think if you get planning for an agri shed(28days notice), once you start work on the shed you are entitled to reside on the land, in your caravan till the shed is built, up to 5 years...
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So put in planning for a agri shed? Do you know how much that would cost???
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Thanks Colliewoman
We are in England as well
If asked to leave how long would we have does anyone know?
Do we put Caravan on then ask for planning???
Like I said, we got eviction notices in 2006 and are still here!
If you're asking what I would do, I would put the caravan on and see what happens, if you get hassle then apply.
I'm not saying that is good advice though ;D ;) ;)
yup.pitched up, squared off, get the woodburner fitted ;D
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So put in planning for a agri shed? Do you know how much that would cost???
If you go onto the local council's website you may find a scale of costs.
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Thanks. Will have a look and see what the costs are.
Has anyone on here done what we are wanting to do and managed to stay in their static?
Would really like to thank everyone for their help so far
We were just really worried we put a static on and then the council would come and demolish it with a few weeks
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agric sheds below 60 by 40 cost nothing in Scotland all you need is council concent
the Gypsy's at that farm that was on the telly they got a good few years out it :farmer:
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Thanks Rob
We have never needed to apply for planning before. It is taking alot of reading and my brain is already fried! lol
Is there enough land with 7acres?? to put a agri shed up? I think i have read somewhere that you need planning permission for any land less than 12acres is that right? Any help would be greatly appreciated
The land is next to quite a busy road and does have access of the road at the moment with a tarmac drive. In front of the stables (stables are on a concrete base and the concrete base is double the size at least of the stables) In front of the wall surrounding the stable there is also a good sized peice of land which has got hardcore down then white stone (used fro parking cars) Not sure if all this info is releveant
What would we need to fill in a an agricultural prior notice consent form (as in plans etc) as as previously said we have never dealt with planners before
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I really do think that an hour with a planning consultant would pay dividends. Peace of mind, knowledge of the exact facts of what you can and can't put on there.
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Agric notification is no longer free in Scotland at least - we had to pay for ours albeit cheaper than planning fees, from memory it was about £120ish,
Re the 5 hectares
Rights for the erection, extension or alteration of a building, and for excavations and engineering operations, which are reasonably necessary for the purposes of agriculture, are available to larger agricultural units of at least 5 hectares.
More limited rights, including extensions and alterations adding not more than 10 per cent to the cubic content of the building, are available to smaller units of at least 0.4 hectares but less than 5 hectares.
For more information see Part 6 and Part 7 of Schedule 2 to the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) Order 1995:
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19950418_en_4.htm#IDAEME3D (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19950418_en_4.htm#IDAEME3D)
Bear in mind that councils are not keen to allow static living even if they think you are harmless as it creates precedents which are used by travellers in other much less suitable sites which can lead to conflicts between travellers and settled communities and expense in clearing the mess left behind, and also because it conflicts with the policies of promoting development in established villages and settlements to minimise costs of council services provided and also to protect the countryside.
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Maxwell
i live in north yorkshre too and so are covered by the same planners as you, they are a complete pack of w***kers (forgive my french) we have four acres and wanted to put up a 60 x 40 agri shed, we put in planning and they made me write an essay as to why we needed it, i listed rural crime and the lack of policing and the amount of expensive machery we needed to secure, i mentioned i was a honcho in the GOS club and needed the shed to support my piggy activities, the shed was also shield on 3 sides by hedges and we have no near neighbours, they eventually passed it after a site visit. Threis no way they will let you have a kezza on site we had 2 when the house was demolished and rebuilt here and the minute the house was finished they were on our backs to shift ours. Saying that are near 9 horses out to DIY livery they've been there just over 5yrs and the girls have put a static in the hedge back to serve as tack room/tea break room and so far they've never had a sniff from NYCC so personally i would take your chances put the kezza in the least noticeable place and argue the toss later, use the rural issues card, lack of policing, communications, get some chickens, a couple of pigs stuff that needs constant attention.
Good luck all the best
mandy :pig:
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there are similarity's betwean Mandy's shed and my own
i studied the planning regulations to see what was required and decided to just erect the shed and if asked apply for retrospective planning
i saved the cost of plans drainage diagrams etc etc the shed was built and almost complete when we were visited by the council(in a former life he had been involved with pigs) a third of the floor area is dedicated pig pens
they wanted money for a planning application wrong all that was needed was council concent for a 60 by 40 shed concent was granted with them coming out twice to inspect and photograph the inside then they wanted a separate planning application for the signage on the shed paid for that planning refused you then get 6 months to remove or appeal the date and time was logged on the callender and a count down began one hour before the appeal time expired it was hand delivered and the time recorded photographed every bit of signage within a few miles radius and done my own appeal
every bit of signage that was photographed did not have planning permission and that was over 20 the council never challenged the appeal in time and we got our signage
sheds stables etc are easy to get planning for a permanent sitting of a caravan is a different mater or even a temporary sitting all councils are opposed to this and if it was that easy there is the possibility of millions of caravans being used in similar situations to the one outlined
you can take them on on a shoestring budget
you can whip there arse but you have to read and re read the rules and regulations
you don't need a planning consultant they may help but wont without charging
don't ask first as forewarned is forarmed
if you are going to do it just do it and see what happens :farmer:
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I think I would put it there in a fairly inconspicuous palce if poss and plead ignorance if anyone says anything. Good luck. :thumbsup:
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You could try putting a caravan on, then going to appeal when planning catch up with you. It depends on your nerve, really. It would be pretty stressful in a standoff with the Council but some people do it for years!
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Thanks everyone for your advice
By reading everything that has been put and internet research i have been doing Planning seem to be a nightmare where ever you are unless you have lots of money or are a big rich developer!
The really frustrating thing to me is that we are working people ( well my partner currently works 12hr shifts) we claim no benefits and our son sells the produces the odd horse to fund himself. In my opinion horses are a big source of income/jobs in many rural areas and i know of many farmers that do really well out of us horse people!
Horses are valuable stock and horse theft is on on the increase as well as all the equipment associated with them, Are the council going to replace rugs/fencing/tack/tractor when it gets stolen?? Once theives know a place is unoccupied then they just take what is not nailed down! I know this from experience a friend had a yard and they just kept coming back and stealing everything in the end she gave up as she couldn,t afford to replace what had been stolen and the insurance companies refused to insure her.
It just seems so wrong that if we my son increased his hobby ( a bigger scale of selling and producing) that he could not be allowed to live where is business was to enable him to grow that business secure his expenesive stock and equipment. We are not in a position to rent a yard with a house these are easily in excess of 2k a month before you even start with all the additional costs. Our rent at the new place is minimal so would easily be a viable option. Even more annoying i suppose is that the yard is opposite quite a large industrial factory lorries coming and going and onsite 24 hr security ( i have been told they have a porta cabin on site)
I think we may just bite the bullet and put a static on and see how we go. If anyone one on here would be willing to help with filling in planning forms etc that would be greatly appreciated as having read all the regs i am thinking that i need help in this department!
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Hi Maxwell,
Getting permanent status for a dwelling when involved with equine is harder than when to do with an agriculture dwelling. Not that it isn't possible though.There's quite a few cases of determined folk who have suceeded against planners in being able to permanently reside on equine holdings.
If you were to go down the agricultural route you would be better off going down the precribed route of using the regulations as afforded by the General Permitted Development Order as alluded to in an earlier post. However, to make use of that you would need a holding of 5 hectares some of which you would have to own (although you can rent a fair proportion of your holding on a farm business tenancy).
For your immediate future, moving onto your friends land and residing in a mobile will have the local enforcement team on your backs as soon as they find you. They aren't permitted to carry guns or come with paid muscle,,, so its all basically legal stuff. It can several years for eviction to happen but be warned it could be under a year if planners are on their toes and you don't know what you are doing.
To be clear, I am an agricultural planning consultant but I do agree with Robert Wadell. If you have the time and confidence, all the information, rules, regulations, planning cases and case law are freely available on the internet for you to study. Where I might differ with Robert is that people employ planning consultants to carry out a job for them and employ their expertise just as one may employ any other person to do a specialised job for them.
Good luck which route you take :)
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I still say that a planning consultant is what you need - not to get planning consent but to let you know what the possibilities of success or otherwise are and the likely time-scales. I don't believe it would be a huge amount of money and I think it would be worth it.
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Would love to help but fortunately for us our architect did all the planning stuff so never actually saw any forms myself. Whatever you decide best of luck
Mandy :pig:
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I agree with Jo - you need to talk this through with a consultant. You can ring them up and ask how much a consultation would cost.
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I agree with Jo - you need to talk this through with a consultant. You can ring them up and ask how much a consultation would cost.
Is that me? Explanation may be in order? 'dog' = obvious as we have so many; 'an' = first half of Anne; 'jo' = first half of John(late and great 2nd husband) = dog an jo. ;D ;D ;D
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Ah. Sorry. It was an uninspired guess!
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Ah. Sorry. It was an uninspired guess!
;D ;D ;D ;D
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HI
I was hoping someone might be able to assist.
I am currently looking to purchase a 12 achre plus agricultural site with the view of developing a small holding. Once purchased I intend to submit a agri 28 day notice for a new agricultural building with the view that this will allow me to have a caravan sited on the land for 5 years whilst it is constrcuted.
Could anyone advise where in the planning legislation it stages that you can site a caravan whilst the agricultural building is constructed.
Also, once the five years is up, assuming the small holding has developmedn and is making profit, am I correct in thinking I can apply for planing permission for a dwelling, and if so will it be tied to the use of the land, ie, it cannot be sold on at a later date.
Thanks in advance for your help.