The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: cuckoo on January 11, 2012, 07:43:51 pm

Title: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 11, 2012, 07:43:51 pm
My two osb sows are housed in 10ft sq stable with similar sized run bedded on barley straw - they are due very soon.  I would be very grateful for suggestions as to how you prevent crushing - how deep do you bed? I thought about partitioning off a corner as a creep area but have no electric at the moment in the stables.  Suggestions appreciated
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: oaklandspigs on January 12, 2012, 08:48:19 am
We put a metal hurdle upside down (gaps are bigger at the top) across a corner, fixed to screw eyes on the wall.

Bed wise, you're pig will decide how deep, she'll build a nest - different pigs different nests from nothing at all to something Edmund Hilary would see as challenging


You cannot eliminate  squashing, and again it is very pig dependant, although gilts are more prone.  This happens even in intensive systems with farrowing crates.

Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: HappyHippy on January 12, 2012, 09:14:06 am
In the absence of a hurdle, you could try a ladder laid on it's side across a corner (use blocks of wood to anchor it in place) but I'd try to get a heat source in there if you can - it's chilly and having a nice warm area away from mum will help reduce the chances of squishing  :thumbsup:

Good luck for the farrowing - hope you've got your Sweetheart stout to hand  ;)
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 12, 2012, 09:16:38 am
I can tell you about my so far one-and-only litter from my OSB.  It was her and my first litter.  She farrowed outside in her 9 x 7 ark, with plenty of fresh barley straw.  I didn't make a creep area.  She had 5 strapping little piglets.  She'd build them a 'beehive' in a corner and chase them into it to keep them warm snug and safe.  She was incredibly careful about nosing through the straw very thoroughly to make sure they were all safe before she lay down. 


Watching her I did think how hard it would be for a sow with a big litter to avoid all of the wee ones when she lay down. 

I haven't quite made up my mind whether or not to make a creep area for her next time, but I suspect I won't and will prefer to let her 'do it all natural', accepting that there may be an odd casualty. 
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Fowgill Farm on January 12, 2012, 09:21:20 am
Are you planning to farrow both of them together in the same stable?
If so you may find it a tight squeeze and when the first one farrows the other might object to little creatures or try to 'help' and also you may find one sow feeding all the piglets, try to have separate farrowing quarters if you can.
HTH
mandy  :pig:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Berkshire Boy on January 12, 2012, 09:53:14 am
I do as Sally and leave them to make their nest and keep the little ones warm.
I do have a few casualties but not that often and I wouldn't worry too much about a heat lamp I had a couple of litters through the winter last year no problems.
With the squishing I find the first 24 hours is when it happens after that the sow is a bit more aware of them and them of her.
Good luck when it happens. :wave:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: robert waddell on January 12, 2012, 03:03:07 pm
difference of opinion here if there is no heat lamp piglets will try to snuggle up to mother and that is when you get them flatpacked         up to 4 days they are still prone to being flatpacked
a creap area has to be solid or mother will root it out    oh and piglets can flatten there litter mates as well :farmer:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Berkshire Boy on January 12, 2012, 03:11:32 pm
nice to see you back Robert. :wave:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: thestephens on January 12, 2012, 07:05:14 pm
we made a creep area the first time round with heat lamp and no one used it!
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 12, 2012, 10:08:58 pm
Thanks for all the suggestions- they have a stable and run area each - will keep you posted
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 15, 2012, 09:29:19 pm
Well they have both farrowed - Onion had 8 piglets - 4 looked good enough to register but unfortunately the next day I found one gilt (best of the lot) dead >:(.  Sage had hers a couple of days later -  on my birthday! was there when she farrowed - 11 - two still born - 9 live and kicking but next day  one dead - also eligible for registration so a bummer :(

Good news is we have 15 live and kicking and some look really good enough to register.  Was seriously thinking on stop keeping the pigs as a very expensive "hobby", however, to have been allowed in to witness the birth and then to have total harmony to go in and sit with the sows and their piglets makes it all worthwhile. 
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: HappyHippy on January 16, 2012, 07:41:26 am
Congratulations on your litters Cuckoo !

I can sympathise with the loss of the piglets, in my last litter (the KKxOSB) we lost the very best gilt too, and last year's litter of Kune Kunes also saw the best (and biggest) gilt dead on day 2.
It's always the good ones  :'( :'( :'(

Glad everyone else is doing well though and yes, piglets make all the bad/mucky/expensive bits sooooooo worthwhile  ;) ;D

Karen  :wave:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 16, 2012, 09:10:30 am
Congratulations cuckoo, Onion and Sage!   :love: :pig: :pig: :pig:

Sad to hear of the squishings; when you've had time to ruminate on it I'd be interested to know whether you would make a creep area another time?  (I was lucky this time - but 5 piglets are fairly easy to avoid; 11 is more than twice the problem!  I still haven't made up my mind whether I will or won't make a creep area next time.)

Anyways, enjoy your lovelies; Meg having her litter and caring for them has been just about the best thing I have ever done.  :love: :pig: :pig: :pig: 

Oh - and happy belated birthday!

Sally x
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Fowgill Farm on January 16, 2012, 11:02:10 am
Congratualtions Cuckoo and well done your girlies.
Yes seeing a farrowing makes it all worthwhile, last night when i went out to shut Clover & her babies in she was sound asleep in a big straw nest and all 8 piglets were snuggled in a straw nest in the creche under the heat lamp, it was minus 5 outside, they all looked so peaceful and cosy.
And agree with HH its always the best ones that squished or maimed!
Enjoy your babies, best of luck, i'm sure i don't need to tell you but keep checking mum(s) is managing and start to gradually build her feed up, make sure she's doing her business ok and that her udder is relatively cool.
HTH
Mandy  :pig:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Tamsaddle on January 17, 2012, 10:14:22 am
Just for info, I am attaching two photos of the creep area I have constructed and which has been very successful, and can be moved to wherever you need it.   All our farrowing arks have a front and back door, and it is positioned next to the back door where it is easy for us to get access to.  The angled struts at one end is so that it will fit in both our curved and triangular arks without hitting the wall.    If the sow makes a fuss about it being there we simply screw its floor onto the floor below.   In the first photo the heat lamp is in the wrong place - later it was positioned on the tightened chain between the top and side beam right over the creep area.    The dimensions of the 18 mm ply floor are 610 x 800 mm, and the height of the gap for the piglets to get into is 240 mm.   Obviously this is only for very small piglets, up to about 10 days, but those are the days they are most likely to need protection from squashing and really appreciate the warmth.  All the best - Tamsaddle
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 17, 2012, 11:07:50 am
Thanks for that, Tamsaddle.  I initially thought, "Meg'd just toss that about like a toy" but then read on that you can screw it to the floor.  I might think about that for next time - if there is a next time  ::)
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Bionic on January 17, 2012, 11:25:11 am
Tamsaddle the little piggies look very comfortable  :)
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 17, 2012, 10:10:37 pm
Thanks for all the replies - Tamsaddle - your pictures look very interesting - will show OH and see if he can rig something up - will need to get electricity to paddock though??.  No more piggies lost - but onion a bit off her food tonight so will check her again before I go to bed.

Sally - as to whether I would make a creep area in the future - I will try to - but a barriar is no good without a heat source - as the piglets went towards warmth ie mum as there is was external heat source.  I will investigate getting electicity upto the paddock.  The investment will be worth it if it prevents squishing

Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 17, 2012, 10:39:52 pm
Sally - as to whether I would make a creep area in the future - I will try to - but a barriar is no good without a heat source - as the piglets went towards warmth ie mum as there is was external heat source.  I will investigate getting electicity upto the paddock.  The investment will be worth it if it prevents squishing
Well, if electricity is a problem, we can use lots of straw and a hot water bottle.  And try to farrow only when it's not extremely cold outside! 

Meg mostly did not have the piglets sleeping against her, she had them in the piggy straw beehive, which she pre-warmed with her breath. 
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Bionic on January 18, 2012, 07:29:48 am


Meg mostly did not have the piglets sleeping against her, she had them in the piggy straw beehive, which she pre-warmed with her breath.

Mum is sooo clever  :D
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Berkshire Boy on January 18, 2012, 09:56:11 am
I don't wish to upset anyone but don't you think its going a bit far hot water bottles etc. They are pigs and they will look after their young as best they can and the odd squished one is unfortunate but that is life.
What is the next step, bring them indoors and farrow in front of the aga. ???
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: robert waddell on January 18, 2012, 05:56:56 pm
tamsaddle that is good innovation
berkshire boy  to lose one or two is to be expected  to leave it to there own devices in accommodation and circumstances that we have provided is unacceptable :farmer:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Berkshire Boy on January 18, 2012, 10:24:33 pm
Sorry Robert but that is crap, I don't leave my sows to their own devices but I also don't run around tucking hot water bottles under their pillows ::)
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: robert waddell on January 18, 2012, 10:42:55 pm
i never said i use hot water bottles or pillows    i have to watch what i write now or i will be accused of abusing members again
a sod it  it is surprising the amount of pig keepers that expect a multiple birth with no casualty's in an ark
when did a pig ever make an ark in the wild
some pigs manage fine others  dependant on the ambient temp the piglets get chilled when born and are then lethargic      when in attendance the first thing to do clear its mouth of glut dry it off get it warmer under the heat lamp then get it on to mother to feed    it is amazing how some piglets that are more dead than alive when born    with a bit of attention are fighting fit by the time the last one emerges     but you already know that :farmer:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Tamsaddle on January 19, 2012, 09:30:33 am
I would second that.    We managed to save the last-born Tamworth and Saddleback piglets last year, despite coming out very late on in the birth, being very floppy, motionless, covered in gloop and reluctant to breathe until coaxed and coaxed and coaxed into doing so.   Both turned into fine, big pigs who were slaughtered recently and just as good a weight as the others.   Would have been a great pity to have lost them, both for the pleasure of their lives, and for the worthwhile meat they have produced - Tamsaddle
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 19, 2012, 09:36:22 am
It was me that mentioned hot water bottles.  Someone said they couldn't get electricity to their outdoor farrowing area, so couldn't set up a heat lamp.  I said you could always use a hot water bottle under plenty of straw to make the creep area warm.

There's a spectrum of outspoken at one and and tactful and diplomatic at another.  Sometimes I wish I was nearer robert's end - and sometimes I wish he were nearer mine!   :D  (Love ya robert - don't you go changing. ;))

I guess where I am coming from is, if you don't have the right facilities you better get creative and come up with something - because those livestock depend on you; we've taken them out of the wild and domesticated them and now it's up to us to make sure they have their basic needs met.
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: robert waddell on January 19, 2012, 03:38:31 pm
any breeder can do what they want with there pigs        you may get away with minimalistic input but there comes a time when you have drastic losses  then you have to rethink what you are doing     you have also to concider the welfare code for keeping animals and if you could be breaching it
a week piglet can be placed in a box with a hot water bottle or gel pad we have done it saved some lost some  :farmer:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 19, 2012, 05:18:54 pm
I posted the original post - once it was apparent the pigs were going to farrow imminently they were regularly checked - I  narrowly missed the first farrowing and was in attendance at the second farrowing where there were two still borns - I tried all the things I knew to revive them - rubbed them vigously with straw, cleared the airway, breathed into them and swung them (gently!), held them to my body to warm them but there was no sign of life from them moment they were born except their hearts were beating a little but that gradually stopped.

I dont have a sod it attitude to my pigs - I posted on here as I want to learn more - I didn't think of a hot water bottle and I think the wooden structure with the heat lamp is a really good idea so thank you all who have replied.

All piglets thriving - cleaned out the stables today and they made their first steps into the outside - you should have heard mum when one disappeared out under the fence and she couldnt follow him - will be keeping them in stable until they are a bit bigger - which wont be long as it is amazing how fast they grow.

Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Berkshire Boy on January 19, 2012, 06:24:26 pm
Blimey Robert that's a big jump from saying I don't use hot water bottles to suggesting welfare code is being broken.
I don't believe in heat lamps etc as a matter of course,I use them if there is a problem but luckily that is rarely.
I am present at the farrowing 90% of the time but usually not needed much, just love being there watching.
Maybe I'm just lucky that it seems to go well and any squashed ones seem to be within 24 hours when I'm not around.
My point was that humans domesticate animals and then make them soft with over fussing, its like dogs that people put coats on,its a dog for gods sake it has a bl**dy coat of its own.
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: robert waddell on January 19, 2012, 06:46:59 pm
agree with you on the coats i have also seen Shetland pony's with jackets on in a shed wtf
with pigs if left to there own with suitable matterial  they will nest even the commercial pigs will nest  it is just that these pigs are domesticated and taken out there  zone
once we have used a hot water bottle but given the choice would you lie on a cold stone floor or on a hot water bottle   
we are present at farowing as well but do use heat lamps  well it is Scotland  damp and as cold as a witches tit
the lamps are essential in the creep area to provide a safe warm environment just what is the point of having pigs spending a fortune on feeding and bedding to get no return because of flatpacks
yes it is very interesting watching piglets from being almost at deaths door to feeding and getting fatter to fighting with there siblings in just a few hours as well :farmer:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 20, 2012, 12:44:32 am
Congratulations cuckoo, sounds like all is going very well.  Pictures would be very welcome if you have time  :)

On the subject of dogs in coats - house dogs in centrally heated houses do, so I'm told, now have inadequate covering to keep them warm enough outdoors, especially in very cold weather for any length of time.  I guess if they can run about enough they should keep warm, but not everyone lives where the dog can be off lead and racing around all the time.

When my collie had to be overnight at the vets, they said I'd better come and fetch him home, he was suffering from the heat in their kennels.
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 20, 2012, 10:37:47 pm
Just tried to upload pictures but file too big ??? will figure out how to reduce size and then upload again
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Miss Piggy on January 20, 2012, 10:38:15 pm
[quote author=SallyintNorth link=topic=20681.msg197660#msg197660 date

When my collie had to be overnight at the vets, they said I'd better come and fetch him home, he was suffering from the heat in their kennels.
[/quote]

That made me smile Sally, :D :D :wave:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: Miss Piggy on January 20, 2012, 10:39:37 pm
Looking forward to seeing pictures Cuckoo and congratulations on your piglets  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 20, 2012, 10:50:40 pm
Does anyone know how to reduce size of jpeg image?? My IT skills dont go that far?!!
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 20, 2012, 11:20:23 pm
Does anyone know how to reduce size of jpeg image?? My IT skills dont go that far?!!
You can usually get your PC to save it with less detail; I use Windows Picture Manager, Picture => Compress => for Web pages, then Save As so you don't lose the original high definition picture.

HTH
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: arl on January 21, 2012, 12:28:18 am
Well done cuckoo
Sorry let you down on the worming had some serious stuff going on at home.aaaagh Seem to be doing very well anyway  good litters. have someone interested in your boar if you want to let himj go
Arl
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: cuckoo on January 22, 2012, 09:55:05 pm
Arl,

I have pm'd you.  Some pictures uploaded of the piggies taken a few days ago.
Title: Re: Help! Suggestions to provide creep area
Post by: SallyintNorth on January 23, 2012, 01:46:16 am
Well done - and thanks  :thumbsup: - on uploading the pics.  They look lovely from what we can see... we would, of course, like to see more in due course...  ;D