The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: plumseverywhere on January 09, 2012, 01:23:51 pm
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If someone was grazing their freezer lambs on my land and wanted to have a home slaughter carried out here, I am under the impression that this would be unlawful as its not for the land owners consumption? I'm trying to make head and tail out of the guidelines and this is my understanding, would it be possible for someone with more knowledge and understanding than I have to clarify for me please?
I should state also that I am not happy about this happening so its not something that I will be supporting, especially as I have my own stock here who may be affected by seeing something happen. and we are overlooked by neighbours so it is NOT going to happen but I'm just trying to find out frm a legal point of view further cases for my arguement .
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I may be wrong(it has been known ;D) but I believe it is the owner of the animal, not the land who can eat the meat.
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Home slaughter is more trouble than its worth IMO. I once had someone who wanted to buy a live lamb to put in his paddock and slaughter few weeks later....I asked him how he proposed to slaughter it and he told me he'd use a 12 bore! ;D
Needless to say I didn't sell him the lamb.
If you don't want it happening, just say no. For what its worth though, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't traumatise your existing animals.
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its this bit that's confused me (doesn't take much I know!!)
Slaughter in someone else’s unapproved premises
28. This is unlawful. Unapproved premises include any place used for slaughtering
animals other than an approved slaughterhouse (e.g. field, barn, warehouse, vehicle,
unapproved slaughterhouse). The operator of the unapproved premises would be
supplying goods (i.e. meat) back to the farmer in the course of a business. They
would therefore be placing the meat on the market. The slaughter would be an
offence, as would any subsequent sale or supply of meat.
have got in kid goat and possible pregnant ewes in the same land as they were proposing the slaughter, hence my concern re home slaughter :)
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"Unapproved premises" and "market" imply they're talking about somebody's little corner shop rather than a rented/borrowed field...
You could always go down the route of not being able to dispose of SRM (specified risk material IIRC - the brain, spinal cord etc are supposed to be removed, stained and incinerated; can't be buried.) - I bet you can't just drop off the head at an abbattoir!
Why does this person want to home slaughter?
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You could always go down the route of not being able to dispose of SRM (specified risk material IIRC - the brain, spinal cord etc are supposed to be removed, stained and incinerated; can't be buried.) - I bet you can't just drop off the head at an abbattoir!
does that mean the carcass has to be butchered here too?
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If you don't want it happening, just say no. For what its worth though, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't traumatise your existing animals.
I understand the RSPC considers sheep amongst many other animals as sentient and watching others of their kind die infront of them is not reccommended. I once did the RSPCA course on euthanasia
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If you don't want it happening, just say no. For what its worth though, I'm fairly sure it wouldn't traumatise your existing animals.
I understand the RSPC considers sheep amongst many other animals as sentient and watching others of their kind die infront of them is not reccommended. I once did the RSPCA course on euthanasia
and this is partly what worries me Kanisha - i know of someone who had a pig home slaughtered and one was watching and went 'wild' (in their words)
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I agree it could affect other animals. When one of 2 goat brothers died the remaining brother wouldn't let us remove the body - he freaked out. (there were other goats it wasn't that he was on his own) We had to leave it with him for 24 hours grieving time :'(
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If it's your land / premises, just say "no". You don't have to give a reason - doesn't matter if it's legal or not.
There's another thread on here about home slaughter but I think that the slaughtering has to be done by the owner and only s/he may leaglly consume the meat. There is no such thing as a legal intinerant slaughterman.
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I agree with the post above, you may have given your permission for grazing but that definitely does not imply any permission to carry out slaughter on site. Giving reasons for refusal could just result in the person trying to counter the arguments or wriggle around them.
'because I am not agreeable/comfortable with it' is fine as a reason by itself. It is your land so your say.
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Thanks everyone. I think I just needed to clear it in my head that I wasn't being unreasonable by saying No too. I think I am also a little bit peeved that it was assumed that I would find it acceptable without being asked but just being told that this may be what they would be doing >:(
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perhaps, seeing as they are on your land & you deal with them, you should book them in at the abbatoir & butcher and take them on the q-t .....
just price up what each of the syndicate owes you for the meat before you tell them :)
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;D
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I am a fan of home slaughter (we home kill all our own meat) so don't agree with some of the more negative comments on the practice in general.
However,
In this particular case. I think the legal position is dubious but more importantly, it's is your land and if you don't like it then you can say no. At the end of the day, they are renting your grazing ie your grass, rather than the right to use your land for their own purposes.
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I'd have nothing against it, if it wasn't such a legal tangle. Seems easier to send them on - but then, I do have an abbotoir about 10 minutes up the road (sheep and cattle only). I take my neighbours pigs on too and the nearest place that does them is 40 miles each way, much easier to take em somewhere quiet and do em on the farm IMO, but looks like the legislation is moving further in the other direction.
However, the point is that plums doesn't want it done on her place and its a fairly odd assumption to make by her tennants that she's okay with it. If I was her I'd just say no outright and not try to justify it.
(having said that - I've had to shoot a lamb who was beyond salvation on my grazing once, and Id be very surprised to be asked not to do it, but I think the situation in that case is slightly different).
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Thanks VSS and SteveHants. I think in your own case VSS you are experienced and proficient at what you do and I can fully understand your support of and reasons for choosing, home slaughter. This is more of a throwaway comment based on the fact they don't have a towbar to bring a trailer so they have said "oh well we'll just do a home slaughter" for their own convenience rather than as a well thought out method and one that suits all involved.
From my very limited knowledge and what I have been trying to read up, it seems to me that 'home slaughter' isn't just a case of get the beast killed on the land and then drive it somewhere to be butchered - it needs to be done here doesn't it? I might be wrong. but I think that maybe an element that the owners have not researched.
Steve - you are spot on - if an animal needed to be euthenased here on my land I wouldn't blink for a minute, it would be done to alleviate suffering straight away. I will say no outright, you and Rosemary are right in that I will end up being talked at and them trying to force me into something. that will not happen.
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but then, I do have an abbotoir about 10 minutes up the road (sheep and cattle only).
I think this makes a big difference. I suspect that if we had one nearby (our nearest involves an 100+ mile round trip) we would probably still kill at home, but that is our choice and our preference. I have nothing against thise who choose to send animals to the abattoir but firmly believe that people should have the knowledge to be able to make an informed decision about what it best for them. It never ceases to amaze me how many think it is illegal to kill your own meat.
Home slaughter is really nothing to be afraid of - you just need to plan ahead and be clear about what and how you are going to get the job done.
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but then, I do have an abbotoir about 10 minutes up the road (sheep and cattle only).
I think this makes a big difference. I suspect that if we had one nearby (our nearest involves an 100+ mile round trip) we would probably still kill at home, but that is our choice and our preference. I have nothing against thise who choose to send animals to the abattoir but firmly believe that people should have the knowledge to be able to make an informed decision about what it best for them. It never ceases to amaze me how many think it is illegal to kill your own meat.
Home slaughter is really nothing to be afraid of - you just need to plan ahead and be clear about what and how you are going to get the job done.
Our local abattoir (about 15 mins down the road) has just shut down... so my nearest one is now between 60 and 70 miles away . I can see us moving to homeslaughter in the next year, at least for sheep (mutton rather than lambs) and goats, as pigs seem to be lot more complicated.
I would just like to have an introduction to the whole process, for example by watching someone doing it, rather than just reading about it.... Anyone know about someone doing something like that? Shouldn't be illegal to have "an audience" and explaining how it all goes, should it? I have read about people doing it for poultry.
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I would just like to have an introduction to the whole process, for example by watching someone doing it, rather than just reading about it.... Anyone know about someone doing something like that? Shouldn't be illegal to have "an audience" and explaining how it all goes, should it? I have read about people doing it for poultry.
. thats my point aswell as i would love to watch the process and how people deal with differant aspects
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I have the option to go in and watch, but have so far declined.
I know I need to get my head around it. If anything ever went badly wrong on the smallholding and desperate measures needed, I would be the one who was lacking in knowledge when I had previously had the chance to learn.
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Home slaughter is really nothing to be afraid of - you just need to plan ahead and be clear about what and how you are going to get the job done.
It would be very helpful to know what the rules are - maybe I am about to be told it's all in your book? :D
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Home slaughter is really nothing to be afraid of - you just need to plan ahead and be clear about what and how you are going to get the job done.
It would be very helpful to know what the rules are - maybe I am about to be told it's all in your book? :D
I'm just about to buy that book! seeing as I am about to become the proud owner of 2 of the lambs I have helped raise I think I need to ;)
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We ( and you, plums!) have a very good local abattoir about half an hour away. The staff are really friendly and kind to the animals and there is no need to even think about home slaughter for that reason. They should get the ..... towbar fixed!
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Home slaughter is really nothing to be afraid of - you just need to plan ahead and be clear about what and how you are going to get the job done.
It would be very helpful to know what the rules are - maybe I am about to be told it's all in your book? :D
Of course ;D
But the rules can also be found on the FSA website http://www.food.gov.uk (http://www.food.gov.uk) and type home slaughter in the search box in the top right hand corner, it brings up a load of documents that give the guidelines on home slaughter in the different devolved regions.
I would just like to have an introduction to the whole process, for example by watching someone doing it, rather than just reading about it.... Anyone know about someone doing something like that? Shouldn't be illegal to have "an audience" and explaining how it all goes, should it? I have read about people doing it for poultry.
We would like to run courses on home slaughter for this very reason but no-one would be allowed to eat any of it, which seems to defeat the object really.
There will be more info on home slaughter in the next book - for sheep, cattle, pigs, and small livestock too ;)
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But the rules can also be found on the FSA website http://www.food.gov.uk (http://www.food.gov.uk) and type home slaughter in the search box in the top right hand corner, it brings up a load of documents that give the guidelines on home slaughter in the different devolved regions.
There will be more info on home slaughter in the next book - for sheep, cattle, pigs, and small livestock too ;)
And the next book is due when...? ;) ;D
Yes, we can always go to a website and find lots of documents ::), but as you very well know, Dot, that does not confer on us clear and unambiguous knowledge and understanding! Which hopefully your book, when available, will do :thumbsup:
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I would just like to have an introduction to the whole process, for example by watching someone doing it, rather than just reading about it.... Anyone know about someone doing something like that? Shouldn't be illegal to have "an audience" and explaining how it all goes, should it? I have read about people doing it for poultry.
We would like to run courses on home slaughter for this very reason but no-one would be allowed to eat any of it, which seems to defeat the object really.
There will be more info on home slaughter in the next book - for sheep, cattle, pigs, and small livestock too ;)
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Yes I thought there would be some stupid reason to make such course nigh-on impossible to hold... >:(
Waiting for that next book! ;)
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did noone watch the tv series Kill it, Cook It Eat It? they showed the audiences how diff animals were slaughtered and butchered, was very interesting.
we considered a homekill with our 5 sheep cos i find it worse taking sheep to abattoir than pigs as they seem to know the fear or smell or something have to be forced thru the door. that would have been a licensed slaughterer tho, not ourselves. we havent done so yet.
i dont know why but we can collect a dead pig directly from abattoir but have to collect the sheep from a butcher. even the skins cant be taken withou paperwork/movement doc.
plums - just say no. sometimes u have to get lary to get what u want, but as your animals cant speak for themselves, you have to speak up for them. plus u dont want bad memories on your land cos u wont forget it either. animals grieve too.
:love: :wave: :love:
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i wonder how much it would take to become a mobile slaughterman?
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i wonder how much it would take to become a mobile slaughterman?
A change in the law, for one thing ;)
Princesspigggy, I saw a couple of those shows on repeat at about 2am on freeview-something ::) very interesting, though I didn't think much to eating the meat without proper hanging ;D
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I'm 'lucky' in that my next-door neighbour, although now a 'keeper used to work in the now nonexistent slaughterhouse just outside Salisbury and therefore I have a handy encyclopedia of that kind of knowledge that only costs the price of a pint.....
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i wonder how much it would take to become a mobile slaughterman?
Can be done. There's some jolly good mobile slaughtering units been built. Could be owned by a syndicate of producers. Trouble is, the place where it parks up to work would need to be registered. Therefore, each person in the syndicate would need to have a designated concrete pad for parking the unit on when it was on their farm.
(I think that's correct anyway. It's quite a while since I looked into it. I might be mis-remembering).
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i wonder how much it would take to become a mobile slaughterman?
Can be done. There's some jolly good mobile slaughtering units been built. Could be owned by a syndicate of producers. Trouble is, the place where it parks up to work would need to be registered. Therefore, each person in the syndicate would need to have a designated concrete pad for parking the unit on when it was on their farm.
(I think that's correct anyway. It's quite a while since I looked into it. I might be mis-remembering).
Really? I thought the whole thing was illegal... unless I got that from somewhere saying you can't just bring someone in to kill your animals in your own buildings/facilities...
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when i had my sheep inspection,i asked the animal health lady (wer in scotland) and she was sure we cud easily get a mobile slaughter but it would cost us more than going to abattoir. but if u include diesel to abattoir, then diesel to collect the carcuss, then it might work out even.
id def consider it cos im sure the sheep have to wait overnight at our abattoir (as did our pigs..arghh...i forgot to check and only found out after) unless we arrive before 7am. which then means loading the night before anyway cos of dark etc.
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Really? I thought the whole thing was illegal... unless I got that from somewhere saying you can't just bring someone in to kill your animals in your own buildings/facilities...
I think some of the Scottish Islands may have mobile facilities - it's not legal for Joe Bloggs with his 12 bore to come on to a holding and dispatch animals for human consumption in the back shed.
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There are legal home slaughtermen over here (Germany) When he came he led my sheep away from the others....my girl was happy to go, thought it might be to a new field! He used a bolt gun and then throat slit. He also did the initial butchering...I wanted to do the latter bits. As long as none of the meat leaves my premisis its fine....great system.
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there used to be a mobile slaughterer advertise in the Scottish farmer but not recently
if you are selling the meat it has to be done in approved premises with meat inspection being carried out
the wording in the law is quite clear the biggest problem is correctly disposing of the waste
why cant they take the animals to there premises to kill rather than put on a show at your field :farmer:
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Glad to see you back online Robert :wave: Do you know what, I think I might actually use that last line when it comes to it - I will tell them that they can do it on their own land as we don't want to put on a show here on ours - That's brilliant, thank you :) :farmer:
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see...we all missed u robert...u say it the way it is ...lol :wave: :wave: :wave:
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;D