The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Vegetables => Topic started by: milarepa on January 04, 2012, 06:15:37 pm
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My wife is going to experiment with two raised beds using the biodynamic gardening method. Has anybody tried this and any advise?
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I have been following this (more or less) for around 20 odd years now. I feel it works for me. I get
The planting guide each year (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0863158226) as well
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Yes,I do and love it .I,m also combing this with Effective Microorganisms and results have been very good.My garden looks sometimes messy as the plants(comonly called weeds) also present as having their role too.Good luck :wave:
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What is biodynamic gardening?
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MGM, I thought it was just me who didn't know what they are talking about ;D
Hopefully we will both be wiser soon
Sally
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That makes three of us ..... unless it is that non dig system whereby you just fill a raised bed and don't walk on it, or compact it in any way and just add liquid nutrients? ???
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Biodynamics is a step beyond Organic. It involves growing and husbanding with natural systems, with the phases of the moon and without chemicals or unnatural treatment of animals. I believe it also includes a philosophy of life for those using the system. Most of it makes sense to me except the making of a potion, which has to be stirred either clockwise or widdershins, can't remember which, then buried in a cows horn for a while then used to sprinkle on the land. That bit puzzles me, but it was explained as more to do with the community ceremonies and rituals involved with a Biodynamic system than any real benefit to the land.
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Thanks for the info Fleecewife. I have just looked it up on the internet as well. It all sounds a bit beyond me. ???
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I can go as far as a lunar calendar, but they lose me at the potions I'm afraid.
Also wonder how specific the calendar/tips are - same dates in Cornwall as the Hebrides...?
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Yes exactly. I find if the day is good for sowing, planting out or whatever ie it's not bucketing down, under 2' of snow or a day for doing sheep, then I just go for it, and to wait for the right phase of the moon could mean losing the opportunity. I seem to get good crops anyway.
We are probably halfway between Devon and the Shetlands and we usually find ourselves about 3-4 weeks behind the SW, but even locally conditions vary enormously.
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Yes I agree with fleecewife, I had to look it up on the internet last night and decided wouldnt be able to work with the lunar calendar, just got to do whats got to be done when I can. Also I got lost when it started talking about the potions and cow horns. Have to say the organic part of it and trying to work without chemicals etc as much as possible is probably what alot of us strive to achieve anyway, and is all for the best. :)
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Hi again,I'm more concentrating on the time of sowing and which plants go well with which.For eg.if you have carrots they grow well next to onions,leak,spinach,strawberries but never put next to it beetroot.potatoes.cabbage's or dill.There also recipes how to make fertilizers from nettles and other plants to make sprays against pests.the best is to get a good book about it.To be honest I had never heard about any horns and stuff.The book i'm using is an old book from1989 in polish.
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That's Companion Planting and Natural Remedies rather than Biodynamics.
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Thanks for telling us.
I avoid chemicals and plant in the right groups, such as carrots with onions (which is to cover the smell of carrots to deter carrot fly) but I'm not standing in the pouring rain just because the moon is in the right quarter. ;D
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I gather that planting by the moon is not unusual in these parts. Certainly my old neighbours live very much by the callender - even to the point of telling us off for picking Rene Claude plums before the 14th August. Sinners we are - we also picked some Kiwi fruits before November 1st. We found several hollowed out cow horns hanging up when we moved here - 2 had hunting knives in them so I really don't think that the old boy who lived here was into Bio-Dynamics.
A cows horn turned up in the dung I dug out of the barn to mix with my compost. I keep turning the pile but leave the cow horn in the compost for good luck. Maybe I will hang it from the runner beans next year.
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I WAS ALWAYS TAUGHT TO NEVER KNOCK WHAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND IF I HAD WANTED PETTY PATRONISING COMMENTS I WOULD HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO ASK THE QUESTION NOW I NO YOU DO GET BETTER RESPONSES FROM GOATS AND SHEEP
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i didnt think you had any petty patronising comments, more just some interested (but not experts in biodynamics) tas'ers watching for others to add more specific infromation.
im interested in this too, but also have only just started to research and apply some of the more basic techniques, my only understanding of biodynamis is the lunar planting side of it.
id be interested to learn more, if anyone on here knows .
so far tho, it would seem that not many people here, do know much about it.
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If I came over as petty or patronising, I apologise. It certainly wasn't intended. I have heard of planitng by the moon as it's a system that has been used for probably hundreds of years. I'm just not that dedicated. Or organised.
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I have learnt from other forums not to discuss anything much which is beyond the received wisdom of the day, as on the internet there are just too many folks ready to shoot you down, which is a pity, as in my opinion all information is good information, and just that. ie it informs, then armed with that information everyone is then free to make their own decision.
Sadly there are many folk in world who feel their own opinion must be adopted by everyone else. (These comments are not directed anywhere in particular - and certainly not at anyone I have come across on this site - just musings in general)
So - assuming anyone is interested in learning about Biodynamics rather than up for a debate this is a quote on "What is Biodynamics" from theBiodymanics (https://www.biodynamics.com/biodynamics) site
"An impulse for deep social change rooted in the practice of farming. Biodynamics calls for new thinking in every aspect of the food system, from how land is owned to how farms are capitalized to how food is produced, distributed and prepared.
A type of organic farming that incorporates an understanding of “dynamic” forces in nature not yet fully understood by science. By working creatively with these subtle energies, farmers are able to significantly enhance the health of their farms and the quality and flavor of food.
A recognition that the whole earth is a single, self-regulating, multi-dimensional ecosystem. Biodynamic farmers seek to fashion their farms likewise as self-regulating, bio-diverse ecosystems in order to bring health to the land and to their local communities."
I personally feel there is more to this world and universe than, at present, we can possibly understand. I maybe don't 100 percent agree with everything in the Biodynamic movement, but there is enough good about it to stir my interest.
I feel a move in the direction of Biodynamics is a natural progression from the organic movement, which now seems to have degenerated into a marketing ploy.
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The original question was this:
My wife is going to experiment with two raised beds using the biodynamic gardening method. Has anybody tried this and any advise?
From what we have discussed, I wonder how a biodynamic system can apply to just two beds in a garden.
Milarepa, how does your wife intend to go about this? Which aspects of Biodynamics will she be exploring?
I am not intending to be denigratory in any way with this question, but I am interested in the reply.
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Everything needs to start from somewhere, and "from small seeds mighty forests grow" :D
Presumably the beds will be the start of an experiment into whether this is something they wish to pursue.
There are lots of books around, and the library might be able to help if given the titles. A quick search on Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=bio+dynamic&tag=googhydr-21&index=stripbooks&hvadid=7879983649&ref=pd_sl_8bx67ln250_b#/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Abiodynamic&keywords=biodynamic&ie=UTF8&qid=1325936470) bought up this. If they simply bought this years planting calendar it ususally has quite a few interesting tips and pointers
As I say - I just offer this for technical information, in general I am not into detailed debate on the principles of things, as there are many different ways of living in the world, each valid to the individual concerned.
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Look up hoof , horn and blood fertilizer and you can get an idea of why the horn is in the heap .
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If it was my remarks that offended I apologise wholeheartedly, there was no intention whatsoever to offend. I was interested to know more and just posted my thoughts after looking it up, i.e. life is too busy for me as an individual and the weather not suited here to allow me the option of sowing as per the lunar calendar. My comments were not written with any condescension intended towards the system.
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thanks for the advise. the 2 beds measure 20x8 feet each we still have veg from last year in them which was grown organicaly and we have noted the results so we can compare with this easons veg i have spoken to a friend who grew biodynamicaly and who has grown organicaly and traditionaly he found the results were very much improved but found he became a slave to the system we will try try this method if only to prove tro ourselves by the way the moon controls most things in our life why should it not have an affect on plants and planting
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You will find as you get into it that it is more than just moon based, though that does have a strong influence also.
One of the things that I found most noticeable is that (in my experience) bread rises better and makes a nicer and more satisfying loaf when made during the Warmth/Light (Flower/Fruit) periods.
That's an easy one to try, and the results show immediately - well did to my mind anyway - my mother made our bread for many, many years, and having tried following the calender was total convert, to the extent we had to go without if the day was missed.
When I first bought the "Calender" it was pretty basic, but each year they include more hints and tips. I keep them for reference and to read through from time to time
Maria Thun, born 1914, who started publishing the "Calender" 50 years ago has been growing all her life, and at least her father before her, so she probably knows a bit about gardening anyway
Here is a link on something else you might be interested in Linky (http://www.decanter.com/people-and-places/wine-articles/483445/biodynamics-fruit-and-root-days)
But as I say - each to their own - it works for me ::) even though I don't follow everything.
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I think the moon may well influence natural things, it has a gravitational effect and we're all affected by that (some of us more than others ::)).
The companion planting, as we know, works well.
The 'potions' have some aspects of trace elements in them, and again we know that soils and plants need these, see Plantoid's comment about the horn in the compost heap.
The potions also involve quite a bit of ritual. Nothing wrong with the ritual if you want to believe in it or enjoy it, but many folk don't and it has to be ok to discuss it rationally rather than just believe something blindly.
It's better, in my opinion, that people discuss the bits that do make sense to them and do, in their experience and that of others, work and therefore keep the best rather than throw the whole lot out because the ritual aspects seem odd to us now. After all, what you get in such a discussion is a whole heap of collective folk-wisdom and it seems to me that that's what the biodynamics movement grew out of too.
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Genuine question (mentioned before and not intended as criticism or sarcasm :bouquet: )
How does the calendar allow for different regions, weather variations etc? Or is it more "this week is good to plant root vegetables" rather than "plant carrots this afternoon"?
I'll admit I'm not a ritual-loving person, so perhaps I do dismiss things that seem odd to me before making proper enquiries.
I'm trying to absorb companion planting/permaculture in a way that will work in my little garden - my main stumbling block is what to use for ground cover, I've got as far as thinking white clover...?
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There is one calendar for the northern hemisphere and one for the southern hemisphere. It is more to do with all the "heavenly aspects" at a particular time. ie old gardeners round here (west midlands) planted their potatoes on Good Friday, which is an annual date linked to the the moon and the spring equinox, and an easy one to remember (nothing to do with biodynamics here, just saying that the time of year can be as influential as weather conditions on the day).
Its really almost too complicated a system to just explain in forum posts, and if anyone is genuinely interested in trying it out I would suggest (as I mentioned before) starting by getting the planting calender, It won't mean all that much at first, but it would be a taster of whether it is something that you might want to pursue.
I think it is one of those things that you will either quite enjoy, or find ridiculous - , there doesn't seem much inbetween ground. I can see lots in it that seem laughable, but then "there are more things in heaven and earth" etc......... :)
As I say - as a quick test, if you are a breadmaker try making a loaf on Thus 12 and then another on Sunday 15th or Monday 16th , and see if there is any difference between them, and post the results of whether you though the first loaf or the second loaf was better. Might be interesting to see if there is any difference. ;D
I have never set up a survey on a forum but perhaps that would be a good one, and I can post the dates for testing over the next few months and we could see if certain days are better
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I don't eat bread but I do like the idea of everyone giving it a bash and posting results ;D
Other daft question, does the calendar/info refer to specific plant types, traditional to the region, or is it more general? I have seeds for sea kale, scorzonera, salsify, who knows what else....... so if they can be accommodated I'll give the calendar a bash; if it's more specific to traditional crops such as potatoes, broad beans then maybe not :-\
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Its grouped into Root Fruit Flower and Leaf. Some are a bit difficult to categorize. For years I grew Caulis and Broccoli under Flower, but it tends to make them flower a bit too quickly and they are better under Leaf
So mainly, just choose the part of the plant you are seeking to enhance ie peas sweetcorn and tomatoes would come under fruit, and carrots and potatoes root days. Leeks and onions I tend to grow on root days, though they are a bit between that and leaf, and leaf days for salad, and greens etc. :)
And if anyone really wanted to "trial" it for themselves then grow the same plants in two halves of a row one on the "right" day and one not. ie tomatoes sown, transplanted pinched out weeded and harvested on fruit days and another lot but all done on root days. Then compare the yield, quality and taste. Which is basically how Maria Thun came to publish her Calender.
Of course its not just about slavishly following the calender alone, good husbandry and soil care etc must also come into the equation, but it is a good place to start.
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Its grouped into Root Fruit Flower and Leaf. Some are a bit difficult to categorize. For years I grew Caulis and Broccoli under Flower, but it tends to make them flower a bit too quickly and they are better under Leaf
So mainly, just choose the part of the plant you are seeking to enhance ie peas sweetcorn and tomatoes would come under fruit, and carrots and potatoes root days. Leeks and onions I tend to grow on root days, though they are a bit between that and leaf, and leaf days for salad, and greens etc. :)
And if anyone really wanted to "trial" it for themselves then grow the same plants in two halves of a row one on the "right" day and one not. ie tomatoes sown, transplanted pinched out weeded and harvested on fruit days and another lot but all done on root days. Then compare the yield, quality and taste. Which is basically how Maria Thun came to publish her Calender.
Of course its not just about slavishly following the calender alone, good husbandry and soil care etc must also come into the equation, but it is a good place to start.
Aaaaaah see now I'm getting it :dunce:
To be honest, I'm a novice so coud do with a calendar/hint list anyway...so why not this one?
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Well, it's got me interested!
As I've just got an allotment and it's all dug over ready, and I don't really know when to plant stuff etc (I know, very technical ;) ) I thought that I would use this calendar to plant and sow. I also bought the book with the hundred tips in it to explain a little more so I'll see how it goes.
Knowing me though, I'm going to be buying all the potions too.............I've just started to learn to cook. I made my own beefburgers the other day..................most expensive ever! That's because I bought the ingredients, a pestle and mortar, a griddle pan and have decided that the kitchen needs a re model...............Stop me someone!!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Ian
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My biodynamic calendar wotsit arrived today. I won't pretend to understand a word of the notes yet, but I've written on the wallchart the names of the seeds I have and the months to sow them according to their packets :thumbsup:
So, would samphire be a "leaf" crop then...? ???
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I presume that if you dug it up there would be a root type system that anchors it to the ground, and you eat the other bit, so the other bit should be leaf (stem) - sow / cultivate on leaf days.
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Thanks for the advise you have given. I have got the calender now and have also bought a couple of books. The calander is hard to follow but will plod on and see how we go. I find it very interesting and will do as much research as I can. I also bake my own bread and will certainly follow the chart in future to see the results.
Its been interesting watching the comments!
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Quick question - does soaking seeds (beans in this case) count as planting/sowing in terms of the calendar?
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I have never seen any actual written information on this, but I use the time I put them into the water as the beginning. Don't forget seeds are on the root fruit flower leaf days, and planting is on the planting northern or southern hemisphere cycle
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:thumbsup:
Yup.
Just planning ahead for m'runner beans. Half a dozen "family heirloom" seeds :o I think it's still too early to try them now though.
Also, when is good for digging? Turns out the majority of my digging was done on one of those inauspicious days ::)
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I think weeding/hoeing on the specified days can help, as can harvesting but haven't heard anyone mentioning digging as such. If you really decide to go for it then there are the"preparations", but maybe stick with the planting calendar for a couple of years to see if the system is going to be to your liking.
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I'm having doubts...only a few!
My peas are ready to plant out, but it's now a fortnight until a "fruit" day in the right transplanting period comes up.
The roots are already growing out of the cardboard tube, I don't want to do any damage by holding them back....?
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I think the received wisdom is that you garden first, then use the biodynamic days as an additional aid, so work as a good gardener would first, then if you have to plant out on a non "fruit planting day" you can use any "fruit" day for hoeing weeding etc to help bring them back into balance.
The calandars were set up by farmers for farmers, and if farming is your life it is easier to follow the calandar as you have 7 days a week all year at your disposal, its a bit harder if you are fitting gardening in with other things.
I think the thing is not to make a fetish of it, but simply use it as an aid.
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Fair enough ;D
Thank you! :thumbsup:
Though you could say the peas are only doing so well because I sowed them on the right day... ;)