The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: StephB on December 28, 2011, 11:04:25 am
-
>:(Hi all,
I have a small group of seven light Sussex hens and two cockerels since spring this year and we are now getting 2-3 eggs per day.
But the problems first started mid December when our young cockerel, omelette, was found dead in the coop one morning. Couldn't see anything wrong with him so put it down to "just one of those things".
Then a couple of days before Christmas day, one of the hens didn't come out of the coop in the morning. She couldn't walk and was very sleepy. When we checked on her later in the morning she was dead. Again I hadn't noticed anything wrong with her when we put them to bed in the evening.
No more deaths for a week now, but today i decided to give their wings a clip and put some loose powder on them as we have been tackling lice for a few weeks. I didn't find any lice this morning but doused them again just in case. What did worry me though is two hens have got quite pale combs and have runny bums. Is this a sign that they may be next in line to die :o ??
They were wormed with Fluben vet twice this year so doubt its worms, have been tackling and winning the lice war, no red mites have been seen. Have ordered some of that spot on lice treatment, (forgotten the name at the moment), to finish the last sign of lice for definite.
I don't know what else to do really, but am worried that there is something going through the group and it will slowly kill them all.
Has anyone experienced this, I may be worrying for no reason, but have kept a small group of hens on and off for years and have found that hens don't usually just drop dead.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Steph :chook:
-
Red mite doesn't live on the birds so unless you check the perches and gaps in the housing you may not even see them. They come out at night to feed on the birds and if this is the case it may well be why the hens have pale combs. The house needs to be disinfected (they are blighters to kill with conventional mite sprays). We use Deosect - a lice treatment for horses, but other preparations are available. Not sure why your cock bird died unless he was the favoured food for the red-mite. Nest boxes need to be treated as well but I am sure you are well aware of all of this.
-
Classic symptoms of red mite. They feed on the chickens blood in such large numbers they can't replenish it fast enough and die. Symptoms are pale comb and loss of energy then they just die. Wipe a paper towl in the corner of the coop close to the perches and look for red streaks first thing in the morning. Or you could do what we did. Brought a hen in overnight out of the coop well after dark because she seemed ill. In the morning the kitchen paper underneath her had hundreds of mite beneath and we didn't know we had a problem until then.
-
Thanks for that, i will investigate. I noticed one of the hens with the pale comb this morning had very watery diahorrea (sp?).
Hate the fact that I feel like I am waiting for them to die, will check out the coop for Red mites.
Thanks all.
-
Could be loss of appetite as well StephB, so she is just drinking. She won't digest well if she isn't moving much either. Red mite powder is only a discouragement, regardless of what it says on the packet -see the thread running on red mite at the moment -you will need chemicals or a steamer in the coop.
-
Hi al
I went down and removed some of the perches to see if i could spot all, but no sign of anything. If I can brave the weather I am going to test out my new Christmas torch ::) and go out and see if i can spot them in the dark.
Otherwise I have a tub of smite and Poultry shield so will give the coop a more thorough clean out tomorrow. Am looking at getting a steam cleaner from Ebay, they seem quite reasonable at about £35.
Thanks for your help all.
x
-
You would definitely have seen some sign of red mite under the perches if this was the problem. So I would be inclined to suspect that the pale combs and diahorrea are pointing to some sort of infection. When you pick up the affected birds do they feel thin and light? As this would confirm illness.
It could be E Coli, which responds well to Neomycin (used by pig farmers - if you know any).
But otherwise it's usually not worth treating them, as they tend to die anyway.
-
Hi all
Just thought I would do an update.
After posting on this forum, we got out our spare chicken coop, steam cleaned and treated with Smite and Poultry Shield, vaselined up the ends of the perches and filled with new bedding with a liberal coating of Diatomous earth. I also treated the chickens with the louse powder just in case.
Yesterday i noticed ALL the chickens have mucky bums and one of the hens was sat in the hedge and not looking very bright. Today I have isolated her in the barn under a warm heat lamp with her own mash and verm-x'd water. She is not eating or drinking, but will have a little water if I put it right under her beak.
She is very lethargic and I noticed yesterday that her neck feathers we quite ruffled up.
I am wondering if it could be coccidosis (sp?). I have checked the droppings in the coop and there is the odd faint look of red in some of the poos but not as bloody as I have read it should be.
I have contacted a friend whose husband is a vet and might try the get the poops examined or worst case a postmortem of the poorly hen as I doubt she will last the night.
This is the third chicken to now go down with this illness since mid December and as all the others have runny bums, I feel it is only a matter of time before they all succumb.
I feel I really have to get to the bottom of what it is as I don't want to add more to the flock in case it is something in the grass of the orchard etc. They were wormed twice last year with Fluben-vet, have ordered some Coxoid just in case.
Any ideas???
thanks
Steph
-
cocci does not always show as bloody poo, so don't rule it out on that alone!
The birds will be hunched up & look really miserable, dopey eyes & droopy tails
-
Sounds just like them :-[. The isolated hen has now died and another one in the orchard does'nt look very bright.
Hopefully my vetinary friend migh help in the morning. :-\ I feel so guilty, I was so busy making sure the turkeys and geese were in tip top condition, i think I took my eye off the ball with the layers. I just did the basics and assumed they would tick along fine. I picked one of them up tonight to put away and she is so thin :(. Just hope i can save what is left now.
-
Adult chickens can normally cope with coccidiosis, just egg laying is depressed slightly. We had a 4 week old chick with it. She pood just blood and guts and the vet said it was terminal. I gave her a throat full of Probiotic natural yoghurt in desperation. Within three days she was right as rain. Got it again 2 weeks later but more yoghurt and 4 years later she is still with us. Didn't know at the time I should have given them chick crumb with ACS.
You could always try that Steph, nothing to loose. Will need a 5 or 10 mL syringe as well.
-
Thanks Chris, Should I give it to all the chickens in a bowl or should i get a syringe and try to feed them a set amount.
I will pick some probiotic yoghurt up tomorrow, anythings worth a try while i wait to hear from the vet.
I need to try and separate the chickens from the ducks and the geese because if i have to give them something in their water like coxoid, I wonder if it is safe for the waterfowl to drink it.??.
The grass is quite squelchy down the orchard and as we have barely had any frosts, I guess bugs have time to multiply. >:(
-
The permanent wet can cause coccidia to multiply like mad and then even adult hens get ill. It does sound like it. If they're dying, get to the vets - you need Baycox, which you put in their drinking water. Don't mess about with things you can get online, they're all rather feeble and you'll just lose more hens. The other option is Intradine, which you inject. Depends how you feel about that, it's about 0.2ml under the skin. I found that easier to get from the vets in sensible (ie small) quantities.
And don't feel guilty - we all get sick animals sometimes :-* Good luck :)
-
Interesting, Chris.
A few of my chickens have mucky bums, and a few are a bit featherless, but all in good spirits. Must flubenvet them again this week.
Good luck, Steph.
-
Does Fluben-vet not protect them against Cocci??. I treated mine twice this year, I really would have thought it would have killed off the occysts?. Shows how much I know :'(
I called the vet first thing and am waiting for him to call me with the most local place that does the post Mortems. Another was dead in the coop this morning :(. Have only got 5 left out of 9 now. Just hope I can get medication to the last few before its too late.
Does anyone know how long it takes to get results from the PM?. I wonder if I ought to take one of my hens in as well to try to get some treatment into them while the PM is being done. I ordered some Coxoid on Saturday express delivery but don't know when it will arrive. Hopefully today or tomorrow.
I feel like it is a race against time before they die too.
xxx
-
No, Flubenvet is against worms, not coccidia (which are little microorganisms).
Personally I wouldn't bother with Coxoid. The active ingredient is amprolium, which is effective for keeping coccidia levels lowish but in my opinion not so good about treating an outbreak, for all it's sold over the Internet for that. It's what's in chick crumbs.
The active ingredient in Baycox is tolrazuril - it's much more effective.
I also wouldn't wait for a PM and would be arguing with my vet about this - how many more does he want to die? Why can't he give you Baycox or Intradine anyway, they don't do any harm if the PM turns out to be something else but if it is coccidiosis, as seems likely, at least you'll have given the rest a fighting chance. I'd hassle the vet and point out that they're dying and you don't have time to wait for a PM l :-*
-
Well, The vet now has a dead hen and some droppings to analyse. He has promised to give me an answer by the end of today so hopefully I can pick something up first thing in the morning and get them treated. Doesnt seem to want to precribe me anything until then.
Thankfully, none of the hens left seem to be showing any symptoms more than abit of runny bum. But its only a matter of time. As long as I can get something into them tomorrow then I will go along with the vet.
I wonder if my self-diagnosis of Coccidiosis will be correct??? :-\
Will post an update when I find out.
Steph xx
-
I'm watching this post with great interest. The flock in the Practical Poultry series article had underlying coccidiosis which was treated at great expense. Ours may have it with red in poos but after Flubenvet they reduced cosiderably, except for two. Hope you get to the bottom of it soon Steph and the rest are treated and OK. It is difficult with chickens to get an accurate diagnosis without a post motem, just maybe's or at best probably's.
-
Well, the post mortem is in - They have Mareks Disease. Boo hooo.
Vet says the hen had a massive liver with tumours. The fact that all the birds have diahrrea isnt related apparently, some might fight off the virus but others may seccumb. Though at the rate they are dying, she thinks they have quite a bad strain. Have been advised to cull any that start looking withdrawn and ill and the only buy in vaccinated new birds as the ones (if any) that survive will always be carriers and could pass onto new birds.
Abit of a bummer really, that there is no treatment. I was worried about the ducks and the geese that are free ranging with them, but apparently waterfowl will not catch it, which is a blessing.
xxxx
-
Oh no, I'm sorry :-* I've lost a couple of birds to this in the past - not nice :-\
-
Extremely sorry the hear that Steph. The first time I have actually heard first hand of a properly diagnosed case of Mareks. Previously they have invariably been Lyphoid Lucosis which is triggered under stress and is isolated -we've had one definite and two possibles. I did hear of a new strain of Mareks in Lincoln but remain sceptical.
I was going to suggest operating a closed flock system where any new birds remain separated and no new birds are introduced into the infected coop. Don't know if the ducks and geese can carry it about though?
-
Am wondering now if we ought to cull the last few birds, leave the ground clear of chickens for 3-4 months and then re-stock with vaccinated birds.?? although, like you said Chris, The waterfowl will not die of it, but I don't know if they can be carriers of it and in that case, killing the rest of the chickens would be pointless.
Not sure what to do??. It may be taken out of my hands and I might have to slowly kill them all anyway.
Has anyone got any ideas, ??
-
thats what i would do, i would cull and start again.
-
The Mareks vaccination isn't infallible Steph. I have heard they can still get new strains -if that's what they had of course? The critical point is the waterfowl being carriers, otherwise if they are all a bit sick now looks like culling them all and waiting before restart is the best approach. Absolutely everything will need a thorough cleaning though as I don't know if the disease can be transmitted on poo?
-
I was also thinking of liming the ground in the orchard, not sure if that will help, but it can't hurt.
None of the geese or ducks appear ill so will have to chance that, and hope they do not carry it.
Think it might be kinder to put all of the chickens out of their misery, lime the orchard, find a very powerful disinfectant for the coops and then restock in the Spring.
Is that what you guys would do.?
-
Chris, what do you mean by it's the first time you've heard of a properly diagnosed case of Mareks? Don't you regard the paralysis as diagnostic?
Mareks is transmitted in feather dander, so the clean-up has to be pretty thorough. It being a virus, does Virkon kill it? Off to find out. (Yes, apparently it does)
As far as I can find out, waterfowl do not carry it (they don't suffer from it).
Are your other chickens ill? Apparently the diarrhoea can be coccidiosis as Mareks damages the immune system and makes them more susceptible. If they survive, they may continue to excrete Mareks virus so infecting any unvaccinated birds you bring in.
So your options are to cull and start again. In which case do you buy vaccinated birds. If not, you rely on having cleaned it all away and not buying infected stock again. If you buy vaccinated stock then you should e able to keep any birds that survive from your current ones, since the vaccinated ones should be immune.
-
thats what i would do, however i base my decisions firstly on the economics,and i dont do vets for poultry and i cull the sick straight out. luckily i havent had to dothat very often. i keep around 20 birds.
-
My vet reckons my birds probably had Mareks dormant in them when i purchased them and this quote from another website sounds just like my situation, as my birds have only just started laying:-
QUOTE:-
Why does the disease usually stay silent until my birds are in lay?
The virus and latency
This is due to the phenomenon of latency. The herpesvirus family includes ILT in poultry and cold sores in humans. Frequently such virus infections occur early in life without the bird or people knowing it has happened. The herpesviruses like to live in nerves, sitting quietly, protected from the immune system until some stress occurs. In poultry, the onset of sexual maturity is a pretty stressful period as egg laying starts. It is frequently at this stage that the virus becomes activated and suddenly causes tumours in these nerves or moves to other organs. The virus then turns the birds own white cells into tumour forming cells leading to lumps and bumps and a severely damaged immune system. At this stage, there is little the producer or his vet can do but try to predict how severe the outbreak is going to be.
-
Jaykay - Thanks for the research on virkon, that was something i needed to find out as I only have Smite and poultry Shield. Will have to buy some.
As much as I REALLY don't want to kill all the birds, I think it is fool hardy of me to assume that i can rid the sheds and ground of 100% feather or poop residue. and i also worry, as there is more than one strain of Mareks, that even bringing in vaccinated young birds in to mix with older postMareks birds will cause issues.
Heavens - I hope I don't have coccidiosis out there as well. One contagious disease is enough for me to cope with. Eeek
-
Sorry to hear your very sad news. Thinking of you, its just a horrible thing to happen. :bouquet:
-
A friend has just suggested waiting to see if some survive and then incubating a new flock from what is left and then they will all be resistant to this particular Mareks strain.
Guess that all depends if the cock and a hen survive. :-\
-
That's a possibility - and I suppose you can buy in vaccinated stock if you want to buy more.
-
sorry to hear that Steph, at least you know what it is.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do. :)
-
Iv done all that has been said the onley way with Chickins is to get vacinated stock ,the same with chicks all good for 3 moths and bang lost 1 or 2 it's a bad thing when you love youre stock .I would say that all you do won't be enough.iff you get a very cold spell for 1 or 2 weeks minus 5 to minus 10 and a damp couple off weeks ,that would do more good than Eney think you could doo.you need stock that has been vacinated for all 5 things I do hope that itt sorts ,iff you came to me I would vacinate the rest off the stock ,they would live or die but iff they lived all the good ,some off my stock could not be replaced ,a dog killed 2 off the hens you could not get hens as good I bought them for 50 pound each they was treated ass good as the kids so it hurts all the best.
-
Thanks for your replies all, will have a chat to hubby tnight and make a decision. Got a feeling it might be cull and start again.
Thanks again
Lv Steph xx
-
A friend has just suggested waiting to see if some survive and then incubating a new flock from what is left and then they will all be resistant to this particular Mareks strain.
I know nothing about immunity in chickens so these could be stupid questions. Does the above imply that the parental resistance would be passed to the chick through the egg? And would such passive immunity give lifelong protection, or would the chick develop its own immunity through exposure to the virus while protected by the passive immunity from the parents?
-
Mmmm - I think it would be more that the chicks would be exposed early and themselves either die or survive but you'd have perhaps bred from stock that had some resistance to Mareks as they themselves had lived. I don't know of any mechanism of hens passing immunity to chicks.
And you learn something everyday :) It seems hens do pass antibodies into the yolk Passive immunity in chicks (http://ameveaperu.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/6-ESTRATEGIAS-DE-VACUNACION-EN-REPRODUCTORAS-PESADAS-PARA-UNA-EFICIENTE-TRANSFERENCIA-PASIVA.pdf) So I suppose the chicks will be protected initially and perhaps therefore able to build up their own immunity as the passive dwindles - so perhaps not getting ill? As well as coming from stock with some resistance.
-
You can get medicated chick crumbs that will stop the death off young chicks iff you vacicenate marek's vaccinations are highly effective when done correctly. The vaccine is not nearly as effective if the bird has already been exposed to the disease, so it is important that it is done as early as possible.
Other diseases that you may consider vaccinating chickens for include:
Infectious Laryngotracheitis
Pox
Newcastle's Disease
Infectious Bronchitis
Mycoplasmosis
Avian Flu. Link for vacccines http://www.happychicks.co.uk/mall/departmentpage.cfm/Happychicksshop/_317130/1/Poultry%252C%2520Chicken%2520Vaccines (http://www.happychicks.co.uk/mall/departmentpage.cfm/Happychicksshop/_317130/1/Poultry%252C%2520Chicken%2520Vaccines)
So sneezing coughing is a mother that is hard to get rid off and iff you do all this you could still lose 1 or 2 iff the stock has a good immune system 3 or 5 years of age This is the stock to use for breeding strong chicks .
-
Just to reply to Jaykay's point about paralysis being daignostic of Mareks. The most common cause of paralysis is lymphoid lucosis. Mareks is regularly mis-diagnosed based on that alone. Exactly the same happened to the Practical Poultry flock 6 months ago. LL happens in isolation, apparently caused by a virus, but triggered by stress. The virus is so widespread it is best to assume all chickens have it. So if you have a case of paralysis the prudent thing is to diagnose it as Mareks, as that needs an immediate quarantine reaction. But if no more birds are lost it was probably LL. We've had one definite and two possibles -all isolated incidents. They all had paralysis at some stage. There is a new strain of Mareks I've been told about in the Lincoln area which doesn't have much paralysis at all and immunised birds are affected as well. Not heard any more since 2010.
Complex little creatures chickens. Quite fragile but highly evolved. Love our to bits.
Have you reached a decision yet Steph?
-
I was also thinking of liming the ground in the orchard, not sure if that will help, but it can't hurt.
None of the geese or ducks appear ill so will have to chance that, and hope they do not carry it.
Think it might be kinder to put all of the chickens out of their misery, lime the orchard, find a very powerful disinfectant for the coops and then restock in the Spring.
Is that what you guys would do.?
off on a tangent here
just watch the ph in your orchard for the fruit trees
-
Oh heck dizzy1pig, I hadn't thought about the effect that the lime might have on the fruit trees. Have had enough problems with leaf curl and rabbits eating the bark without me killing them off with lime ::). Will have to red into that.
When did life get sooo complicated >:(
i spoke to a local man today who breeds poultry and sells to the public. He sells vaccinated hybrids and also sometimes has some vaccinated pure bred hens, he has some legbars that are vaccinated at the moment.
He has advised me to wait it out....until the deaths stop. if i have any left he reckons I do not need to cull them, just disinfect with virkon, buy in new vaccinated stock, keep them separate from the old ones for a few months, just so that if anything is remaining in the ground or coops then they only get mild exposure and then look to introduce them all together after a few months.
Not sure if its a fail proof plan, but it sounds like a good plan.
I gave the hens some probiotic yogurt today as have read it helps with diarrhea, I got two eggs from them today, but one of them has a pale comb so I don't think the deaths are over yet.
The Coxoid I ordered arrived today, and can't decide whether to treat them with it or not. Doubt it could do any harm.?
Sorry for waffling.
Steph xx
-
Sounds like a plan :) :thumbsup:
Yes, if your current chooks have diarrhoea, I'd treat them with Coxoid. That way they're only fighting the Mareks, not dealing with high numbers of coccidia too - will give them a better chance to get over the Mareks, if they can.