The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on September 13, 2011, 06:55:03 pm
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I was just at the vet's picking up some oxytocin in case I need it.
The vet advised me to give Meg a shot of long-acting penicillin whether or not I have to intervene. He says the thing with pigs is that if they get any mastitis or metritis at all (and they are very prone to both), the milk goes right off them and you are in big trouble. So he recommends a single shot after farrowing just to be sure she doesn't succumb to any such infection.
Since I don't want her to be without her 'friendly' bacteria, I'll make sure I keep up her extras of dairy waste (whey, butter-washing water, etc.)
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Hmmmm... well I've never done it, nor been advised to unless of course there has to be some sort of human intervention and in which case, I'd give a shot as a precautionary measure; but just to give it for the sake it seems a bit odd. I do the same with the sheep at lambing; leave well alone unless there is a need to put a hand inside and in which case, the ewe gets a shot of Penstrep. :-\
Interested to see what other pig keepers do/think especially in this day of "over doing the antibiotics" ;) :pig:
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HI Sally, my first sow died in the summer after giving birth to 7 piglets on the Thurs, she showed early signs of mastitis on the Saturday early evening by the time I got the medication to administer she was dead I think it is better to be prepaired though don't administer unless you have to, have your vet number on speed dial and call straight away should you notice anything untoward going on we all know our sows better than any one. I would not administer unless necessary.
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HI Barratt - So sorry to hear about your sow and the outcome, such a sad experience. Can I ask what where the first signs that you saw please? Thankfully never been in this position myself with my pigs and so first hand actual experience would be very much appreciated. Many thanks.
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Oh Barrett, that is so sad. I would be interested to know more too. My vet is some distance away, but fortunately most of the crofters here have some in stock if I need it.
Having said that I have only administered after intervention to date.
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Having lost a sow :'( to blood poisoning caused by mastitis (the most awful death which i hope never to go thro again) i now give all my sows a jab of long lasting antibiotic as soon as they have farrowed regardless of intervention,it also allays any fear of farrowing fever and anything she might pick up thro little nicks and bites on her teats caused by the piglets. As the others say it depends on your set up and your feelings regarding antibiotics but for me better safe than sorry.
HTH
mandy :pig:
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Which antibiotic do you give Fowgill?
MAny thanks
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Just a broad spectrum penicillin from the vet or Noradine which is powdered and is for horses and cannot be given to animals going into the food chain. Transfer to piglets through milk is negligible. None of mybreeders ever go for meat they live to old age ::) ;D
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Hi All, Her first signs were not eating or drinking if a pig misses a meal that is a sign of concern, she didn't get up just stayed in her arc, I tried hand feeding her bananas as she used to love those no wouldn't have that either, checked her back end to make sure no piglets stuck no all fine then noticed the last 4 teats nearest her back end looked hard not wobbly like the milky ones, anyway she should have had a antibiotic in the morning when I found her after she had given birth my new sow will be getting a small shot just to be on the safe side I think once you have had one die on you you become a bit worried and paranoid it is going to happen again, we always say with animals "Oh I'll see how they are tomorrow" I will not be taking that chance again she must have been in a lot of pain and still fed her babies well.
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Agree barrett you do get paranoid once you've lost one through your own mistake, i check my sows undecarriage 3 x day and as already preciously mentioned they get a shot of antibiotic just to err on the side of caution. I also clear away any wet straw as the piglets use one corner to pee in and i found that sows with teat problems like to lay in the dampness and thats how the germs get into their system.
My piglets are scouring like hell at the moment as Twinkle is coming into season they are six wks old today, have put some Tylan in their water just in case.
Mandy :pig:
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Ahd you guys critise commercial pig farmers. What a joke.
Surely giving oneshot of any drug, that being Long acting or short acting, is never a good idea so certainly don't agree with this. LA should be a 2 shot and SA should be a 3 shot.
On top of that you are giving it to every sow and you guys moan and slate commercial pig farmers!!! Ho ho, ho.
Don't mean to be sarcastic, but you always maintain that what you do is so much better.
We may do it on a large scale, but we also adhere to certain codes(and I talking UK not Aussie).
If you are not careful all you will achieve is a resistance to these antibiotics.
As to getting any mastitis in any sow what you should be asking is why?????
Every time a sow farrows it should be on new ground which is why the hut is better with no floor.
Fresh, mould free, dry straw is also best.
And if a sow does end up with Mastistis it is best to ensure she is given water in a drinker, as if she gets no water she does not have a hope in hell. And OK she will knock it over but hold it infront of her so she gets a good drink and that should be morning and night.
As to piglets with scour. If your piglets suffers periodically with scour problems then vaccination ie Porcol 5 or Gletvac 6 or both is a better option rather than drugs, but if you do have scours Baytril 5 will stop the problem.
Another good option is feed low levels(try using dry sow feed rather than lactating)just before farrowing and gradually build it up. This may also help reduce the problem.
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I agree that any drug should be administered in complete accordance with the manufacturer's instructions - failure to do so is one of the main causes of resistance. I'd certainly hope the folk on here comply with that - the reference to a "shot" is just be a figure of speech, I'm sure. However, I am sure those folk you've mocked are well able to take care of themselves.
In any area of business, there are good and bad practitioners - and that will apply to pig keepers, whether commercial farmers or smallholders as well. We need to take care not to tar all with the same brush, although my personal feelings are that intensive indoor systems by their very nature cannot have high welfare standards regardless of how assiduous the use of antibiotics is.
However, apart from your sarcasm, thanks for a useful post. Just pass on the sarcasm next time - kind of spoiled it :)
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i am sorry rosemary i will have to side with stevie on this one
if they are wanting to calm there pigs they could feed them hash cakes/tablet or is that sarcasm
i do agree with you on the good verses bad practitioners i could name and shame a good number on here both smallholders and commercial however i get the distinct impression from posters that the commercial pig breeders are the lowest of the low just because they do not have an open door policy you should not criticise in fact if anything needs to change in the commercial pig industry it should me a more open aspect to there system of production :farmer:
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I must admit I also agree with Stevie G and Robert. I thought as smallholders we where against indiscriminate use of drugs especially anti biotics. I only use when I have to, I am undecided wether to vaccinate against ery because I worry it is unnecessary. You can't criticize the big farmers and then do exactly the same thing.
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I completely understand where all of you are coming from in terms of antibiotic use. I studied veterinary medicine in the 70's and learned all about how bacteria become resistant to antibiotics and pass it to each other.
The vet (and I know that not all vets are as clued up as some others, but I think a lot of this particular vet) recommended a single shot of long-acting antibiotic. The instructions on the LA preparations state that a 'single injection giving prolonged activity' can be used and that a second injection can be given after 48 hours if necessary.
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i am sorry rosemary i will have to side with stevie on this one
if they are wanting to calm there pigs they could feed them hash cakes/tablet or is that sarcasm
i do agree with you on the good verses bad practitioners i could name and shame a good number on here both smallholders and commercial however i get the distinct impression from posters that the commercial pig breeders are the lowest of the low just because they do not have an open door policy you should not criticise in fact if anything needs to change in the commercial pig industry it should me a more open aspect to there system of production :farmer:
I'm not aware of any reference to calming pigs, therefore your reference to hash cakes is lost on me. Perhaps I missed something.
I don't have a problem with commercial pig producers in any way insofar as commercial means producing to make a profit. I DO have a problem with any pig keepers' failure to have due regard for animal welfare and I DO NOT believe that it is possible to do that in intensive indoor units.
I also don't believe that all outdoor systems provide proper regard for the animals' welfare just because they are "outdoor". If over stocked, so that the animals are constantly up to their bellies in mud, I don't think being outdoors is such a great thing.
My issue was more with the tone of Stevie's post than the content :)
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rosemary when pigs are farrowing they can get stressed this is why some people give there pigs jabs to calm them down hence the referance to hash cakes
at farrowing some pigs actually eat the piglets
we will need to try and get you to visit a commercial piggery to alay your ideas
with both indoor and outdoor pigs if they are well feed all a pig does is eat sleep and s**t they are like us and do not want to get cold or undully wet pigs that are constantly rooting are HUNGRY[
:farmer:
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Robert for a kick off none of us talked about giving our pigs drugs to calm them down, personally i prefer the guiness method myself for both pig & keeper.
Secondly having seen my pig die the most horrific death due to my inherent hatred of drugs(antibiotics) i now find myself on the opposite fence where i see their benefits as my sows only farrow every 9 mths or so, the use of the LA antibiotic as a precaution is hardly likely to make them resistant.
Steveie G i take offence at your post as regards the cleanliness of my farrowing accommodation, we have specifically concreted floors and plastered walls so they can be blasted with a pressure washer and a DEFRA approved cleansing/disinfecting agent. This is done after every farrowing and prior to any new farrowing pig going in. My pigs also have bowl automatic drinkers which are also regularly cleaned out and disninfected too.
Thankfully as Twinkle's season has declined so has the scouring.
If you had read our posts carefully you would understand what we were getting at so stick that in your pipe instead of hash and smoke it!
Mandy :pig:
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oh, i love reading a good debate, but will keep out of it for the moment :pig: :pig:
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barsteward i had a post and it went west ah well here we go again there may or may not have been a direct reference to administering drugs to calm pigs down on this thread but there has been in the past alcohol is a drug as well intensive systems require more vigilance and a greater reliance on drugs and vet intervention on the other hand extensive systems requires even more vigilance without the reliance on drugs and vets
like Mandy we farrow on concrete and after every time the buildings are used they are steam cleaned we do not use straw for farrowing we use shavings you can see when they are wet and little trotters do not get caught in the straw(some times the opposite works especially with calving cows less disease outside) it is really up to the individual and what they want
it is a true saying where you have livestock you also have deadstock and the dead bit follows the live bit you just have to try and reduce it :farmer:
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we will need to try and get you to visit a commercial piggery to alay your ideas
with both indoor and outdoor pigs if they are well feed all a pig does is eat sleep and s**t they are like us and do not want to get cold or undully wet pigs that are constantly rooting are HUNGRY[
:farmer:
Thanks for the offer, Robert, but I used to work on a commercial pig farm years ago (and also have a degree in agriculture), so I do have some idea o what a commercial pig farm is like, although I'm sure, as with all things, there are commercial pig farms and commercial pig farms. Labels are always dangerous.
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times change as well as practises when i was at college the lecturer showed us how to castrate with your teeth
i count myself lucky i have seen the transformation in agriculture from cutting harvest with a binder to the massive combines of today :farmer:
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Just adding my two penn'orth to the antibiotic debate.
I give antibiotics in the following circumstances:
Intervention needed, prolonged/difficult labour, signs of birth canal damage, or if she goes off her feed, gets a temperature or otherwise seems unwell. Following our vet's advice I use Ultrapen LA, usually one dose but a second after 3 days if she's still ill. If you have to give antibiotics make sure you give an adequate dose as under-dosing is a major cause of antibiotic resistance. Even if you give a dose that's a bit to big you won't cause any problems. I also spray all the piglets' umbilical cords with iodine.
Keep a close eye on them all for the first few days after farrowing (as if you wouldn't!) and if there's any sign of a problem give a good dose of antibiotic.
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we will need to try and get you to visit a commercial piggery to alay your ideas
with both indoor and outdoor pigs if they are well feed all a pig does is eat sleep and s**t they are like us and do not want to get cold or undully wet pigs that are constantly rooting are HUNGRY[
:farmer:
Thanks for the offer, Robert, but I used to work on a commercial pig farm years ago (and also have a degree in agriculture), so I do have some idea o what a commercial pig farm is like, although I'm sure, as with all things, there are commercial pig farms and commercial pig farms. Labels are always dangerous.
Now I'm back I've just got to add a bit here ;D
I think you get 'good' pig keepers and 'bad' pig keepers - it doesn't really matter whether the pigs in question are indoor, outdoor or 'pets'. There can be 'good' commercial enterprises, there can be 'bad' smallholding practices - I've spoken to folks both sides of the fence and each thinks the other is the one who's doing it wrong ::) I know I'm doign it right though, so all's good :D ;D :thumbsup:
Antibiotics & medications in general - I would have considered myself a fairly 'alternative' person in my lifestyle ;) Looking for natural cures and holistic approaches wherever possible, not wanting to be a person who pumps their stock full of drugs. But..... I don't think there's any harm in giving an anti-biotic post farrowing,(although it's not something I do routinely - only if there has been an 'intervention' or problem) in the same way I don't think there's any harm in giving oxytocin during farrowing. These aren't needless drugs used to bulk the pigs up and promote faster growth or boost profits, they are drugs which are there to prevent problems, hopefully before they arise. And when it comes to a newborn litter not getting milk, or facing the risk of losing their mum (and having to be bottle fed) there's no question of giving the shot(s). But everybody has their own ideas of what they want to do, and how they want to do it ;)
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times change as well as practises when i was at college the lecturer showed us how to castrate with your teeth
i count myself lucky i have seen the transformation in agriculture from cutting harvest with a binder to the massive combines of today :farmer:
I think I said elsewhere that I bow to your superior knowledge, expressed in your own inimitable style. If you remember binders, you are clearly much older than I.
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remember them i had to sit on the bloody things now watch these flights and lower them when i go in next the trees watch the bloody flights alright and get a branch smack you right in the coupon that is why i like my trees to look like nests on poles :farmer: