The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: andywalt on July 18, 2011, 09:15:27 pm
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Hi All
could I please ask for some advise, two of my ewes both aged roughly at about 5-6 years old(full mouthed), and they both have foot rot in the same front right foot, they are suffolks i treat it with spray or golden hoof it seems to get better and then a month or so later they start to show signs of a slight limp!!
So far I understand that it can be infectious and as the rest of my flock (45 now) are all good I dont want it to escalate.
there must be other treatments or solutions please can you advise what you have found to be best or should I be looking at culling them?
your thoughts are appreciated please?
many thanks andy
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Is it actually footrot (does it stink?) or is it scald (red/sore skin between the claws)? If definitely footrot a longacting antibiotic, like engemycin (given as an injection) would do it (or Mycotil, but only vet can give that), if scald then blue engemycin or terramycin spray will be enough, but it may come back when conditions (long + wet grass/stalks) are right. If scald doesn't get treated it develops into footrot.
There are also footbaths and stuff available, but I have so far not had to use them.
I wouldn't cull a good ewe because of footrot only.
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Good advice from Anke.
We cured one recurrently rotten foot by dunking it in formaldehyde (formalin), put some in a jam jar and stuck the foot in it. Had to do it x2 but no further problems. But if scald, just one of those things to prevent shepherds getting relaxed and idle ;)
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Continue the treatment a bit beyond when you think it is better. We would use long-acting Terramycin given as an intramuscular injection every third day, plus a foot bath of golden hoof or Formalin (which is no longer recommended but it works). This system worked with an outbreak (can you call it that?) of footrot we had a few years ago. If it does come back in the same sheep, act promptly and hit it hard.
Commercially ewes might be culled for persistant footrot. I believe there is evidence that susceptibilty to the condition tends to be hereditary, so it could be that such a ewe would produce lambs with the same tendency.
Our vets say if it doesn't clear up with one injection then cull - but we don't do that. We have an ancient Shetland ewe who would have been culled years ago on that advice but we persevered and she now has perfect feet, but we don't breed from her.
It is also a good idea to take the individual sheep indoors onto hard standing which is kept clean and dry until the foot has cleared up.
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All good advice. If it keeps coming back you need a positive diagnosis, particularly in regard to infectiousness and likelihood of infecting the other sheep in your flock - and each year's lambs.
If it is footrot then the other thing your vet can advise on is vaccination against footrot. I've no experience of it myself but it is supposed to be very effective.
A farmer's view would be that any ewe who repeatedly gets foot problems should be culled when convenient. Smallholders often approach these decisions differently.
I personally would not be keeping ewe lambs on from ewes who repeatedly have foot problems.
There are mixed opinions about whether bad feet are hereditary - but some breeds have good feet (Exmoor Horn for one) and some are notorious for bad feet (Suffolks and Texels are both better than they were but not even their breed societies could say they have good feet and rarely have foot problems.) My personal observations and opinions are that a propensity to foot problems is highly hereditary - but that's not scientific and, although I've worked with many hundreds of sheep and lambs, it has only been over a handful of years.
If the vet says it is footrot, and 43 of your 45 ewes haven't been getting it (nor their lambs) then I would be keeping on all their ewe lambs for breeding / selling as breeders! ;D
(fleecewife posted while I wrote this, so apols for some reiteration!)
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Agree totally with all of the previous advice - I've found the only way to deal with it is to inject with long acting antibiotic plus a covering of blue spray each time you inject (never had to do more than twice). Make sure they can go somewhere on hard standing and dry for the blue spray to take effect/dry.
There is a vaccination (footvax?) but isn't recommended in (light coloured) pedigree sheep as it apparently leaves two discoloured marks on the skin and fleece at the injection site (middle of the neck?)
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THank you all very much indeed, very grateful for your comments and I need to ask the vet for a long acting antibiotic, I did evrything that you said except the antibiotic, so thats very helpful to know and I will carry on my learning curve
many thanks
andy
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actually I could ask you before I ask the vet? where do you give the injection ? in the same leg? does it make a diferance where in the ewe?
and also long acting so would i give two shots 7 days apart or 14?
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In the leg which has the infection, have always injected three days apart.
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I agree with the above but i would shy against vaccination if you are a small breeder it leaves unsightly marks on the neck and sometimes a big lump.
We footbath with copper sulphate and a sachet of erythromycin obtained from vet. this works very well for us
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Antibiotic always needs to be injected into the muscle - so a short thicker needle, have the ewe preferably tied up against a hurdle, and then push against her and make sure the needle goes into the skin and not just into the fleece (it is easier at this time of year - short fleeces). Then quickly inject and preferably massage a bit on the injection site. If it is a large quantity, two injections are better than one large dose.
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actually I could ask you before I ask the vet? where do you give the injection ? in the same leg? does it make a diferance where in the ewe?
and also long acting so would i give two shots 7 days apart or 14?
The antibiotic will work throughout the animals body so no need to give it close to the site of infection.
The usual place for an intramuscular injection is in the thickest part of the muscle of the leg ie the gigot or leg o' lamb. I find the easiest way to inject, especially if the sheep is struggling, is to plonk her on her backside then lean over and hold the leg you are going to inject into in a bent position. This relaxes the muscle fibres and makes it easier to put the needle in. It also makes it less likely that she will tense the muscle and snap the needle than if she were standing. Part the wool so you can see the bit of skin you are aiming for. I always use a new syringe and needle for every injection.
Long acting antibiotics are given every three days as that is the length of their action, and you may need to do it only once or a few times, depending on the results.
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thats brilliant, thanks for the advice very concise and helpful, cheers
andy
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Also make sure you are paring the foot back enough, if there is necrotic tissue or bacteria trapped behind seemingly healthy hoof then they will improve and get worse all the time. I personally have never found the need to use injectable anti-biotics for foot problems, it is possible to cure it with correct foot trimming and terramycin spray.
Culling or not is up to you. It is heritable, and also if you have ewes with foot rot your lambs will be more susceptible to scald.
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yup got that and understand thanks
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With my wee flock (only got about 75 ewes) I've not really got any recurring foot problems. I've cured it by culling out all the culprits!! Works every time and then they can't spread it to any of the other sheep! To get them sound enough to sell the anitbiotics with trimming is the easiest method. Being 'older' ewes it will start to show in their joints that they are lame and they'll become harder and harder to keep right. Sounds a bit harsh but the tough love will make the keeping of the rest of your sheep much easier in the long run.
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hummm yes well i think on this occassion I think the worst one will have to go in the autumn , ive looked back at my book and I have treated her 6 times since last December thats almost once a month. and as I remember when I viewed the sheep last September there were a couple of limping sheep and the owner said that they would get them sorted !!
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Andy you will have to get her ok before you can sell her ,the rule is if lame she must put weight on the foot and not carry it
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Most sheep suffer from Newcastle disease...Newcastle is where they used to make steel and steel is what foot shears are made from.
Never ever par a hoof off exposing the white outer rim, as that opens the foot up to infection through that line.
If the sheep in question has turks toes then by all means trim it back but do not cut off the horn that goes underneath the hoof, as thats what protects the foot from the ground. If you cut that off the sheep is walking around with no 'shoes' on.
There are 9 types of footrot, but only 3 you need worry about. Purple spray helps as long as you can hold them off grass till it dries in. Your vet should recommend a vaccination that will stop the problem. I used footvac myself and it sorted the problem out, but there are better vacs on the market now.
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After a week of phone calls the vet and long conversations to get around the all the red tape I got my anti biotics, long acting, and was charged £60.00 for it too !!! mainly a problem that all the farm vets I had met over the last year have left the practice and they didnt want to prescribe the anti biotics without a visit, what madness, after a few strong words they agreed, ect ect anyway while I was waiting for it to arrive at the surgery, i caught her every day and alternated a foot bath, zinc sulphate (golden hoof) on one day and the next sprayed with terramycin purple spray, now I given her 7.5ml of the long acting antibiotic and will see in a week what the progress is.
I will try and take a photo later today so you can see what its like and will be nice if anyone else does anything differant
cheers
andy
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here it is
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That's really nasty, poor girl. I hope the antibiotics help her.
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ANDY i know it is difficult to know how much to trim away ,you need to understand footrot, it needs a warm moist enviroment to thrive if exposed to air it weakens and dies ,exposure also allows sprays and footbaths to penatrate. The right side cleet is perfect. the left side has a big hole down the side wall plus there is a hole under the sole both need trimming to stop dirt and infection getting in. once trimmed a simple remedy is to mix iodine and sugar into a paste apply to the foot and bandage
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After a week of phone calls the vet and long conversations to get around the all the red tape I got my anti biotics, long acting, and was charged £60.00 for it too !!! mainly a problem that all the farm vets I had met over the last year have left the practice and they didnt want to prescribe the anti biotics without a visit, what madness, after a few strong words they agreed, ect ect anyway while I was waiting for it to arrive at the surgery, i caught her every day and alternated a foot bath, zinc sulphate (golden hoof) on one day and the next sprayed with terramycin purple spray, now I given her 7.5ml of the long acting antibiotic and will see in a week what the progress is
Andy - you may need to get yourself a new vet.... 60 quid for one shot of antibiotics? Do they come in a syrringe with a gold needle? Sorry don't mean to be flippant.
Which antibiotic do you use? My vet is now very keen to use Mycotil on recurring footrot rather than just Terramycin/Engemycin, but I have to bring any ewe in as he has to administer the shot, it's deadly for humans if accidentally injected.
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mycotil is a fabulous drug and works very well, but we did once have a very expensive ewe die from anaphalactic shock through using it so our vets aren't generally keen on giving it more than once to a sheep.
The person who died using it was injecting cattle in the states and managed to inject himself near his heart hence kneejerk reaction here only vets can administer it.
What if your vet is naff at injecting!!
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It wasnt on injection its for a 200ml bottle and it is a long acting one, usual antibiotics I was charged approx £25 for 200ml ect
I didnt really want to trim any any more away as she wouldnt have much left? this is actually a good improvement as it was stinking and all spongy in side, now after the foot baths and spray it has hardened up and she is putting weight on it and just a small limp now, im hoping the injection will finialise it and get rid of any infection left.
andy
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Fair enough, the antibiotic will work short term so as soon as the withdrawal period is up sell her or she will be a long term source of infection ,any where her foot has touched may have infection for weeks.
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6 days on and can you see any improvement with the last photo ? any comments appreciated
andy
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There does look to be an improvement, yes. How is she in terms of standing, walking, etc?
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just a slight limp now so I guess its healing up, today I will give her another shot and give her another foot bath.
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most foot rots in sheep are caused by infections that like anaerobic conditions (low oxygen levels) The best way to stop the infections is to get the air in. I'm glad that your ewe is getting better but i'd have pared back a bit more of teh hoof to expose the rot more so that the healing can advance faster. No need now though when she is getting better. I'll probably reignite the debate of how hard to trim feet but when I know there is rot in the foot I trim really very hard to expose all the rot. Where I'm just giving over grown feet a trim I try and pair as lightly as I can.
Hope the two old girls continue to get better.
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Thanks thats good advice, I will post another photo soon and hopefully we can see more improvement, its a good debate for me as I am only really in my second year and a very common problem !!
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I had one girl that was misdiagnosed with a toe granuloma and the vet wouldn't touch it. I got the senior partner to have a look as I wasn't happy; a really bad case of the rot which he pared right back, put zinc sulphate(? I think, possibly something else) on it to burn back all the rotten flesh and 7 days of penicillin. Good as new!
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todays photo, looks like its healing nicely, LA antibiotics was given again today
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Really interesting thread. Thanks for the photo's Andy, I am pleased she is on the mend.
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This was a bad case for me, the worst I have had and couldmnt believe that there was such a hole appear, Im sure some of you guys have had worse, I think I will keep her and keep a very close eye on her this winter and if she needs constant attention then next year I will cull her :(.
Its nice to see how long she takes to heal totally with a foot bath once a week, anti biotic spray twice a week and long acting anti biotics one jab of 8ml every week, 3 jabs so far.
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Sounds bad i know but I'd be selling her as soon as she is sound. The price of culls just now is enough to take your breath away! Better cashing in and buying in younger fresher stock which will hopefully last much longer with half the work load.
Although I'm the worlds worst for sentimental, I've one ewe that is at least 7 crop, no teeth left and only brings up one lamb a year... but she was my first ewe and i brought her up on the bottle, she'll die at the most inconvient moment and cost me another £13.50 to dispose of cousre, but she's a pet!
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Sounds bad i know but I'd be selling her as soon as she is sound.
BH is of the opinion that once they've had a bad case of footrot they get some immunity, so it's rarely the same girls again. With 300 or so of them we don't keep tabs on the ones we've done chiropody on so I can't refute or prove his theory!
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well it will be interesting to keep an eye on her, see what happens this winter when the constant wet weather comes
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Well................. it just gos to show you.......3 weeks of LA antibiotics and a week later shes showing signs of the foot rot returning !! so a week monday unfortunatley she will be going to see our local abottoir :( at least I tried my best !!
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Well................. it just gos to show you.......3 weeks of LA antibiotics and a week later shes showing signs of the foot rot returning !! so a week monday unfortunatley she will be going to see our local abottoir :( at least I tried my best !!
You certainly did as much as you possibly could, andywalt. :bouquet: Sometimes they just can't be cured. :'(
I'm sure you will have checked the withdrawal period on the antibiotics? Just most of the ones I use are 31 days (from last injection.)
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withdrawl period is 9 days only !!
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Although I'm the worlds worst for sentimental, I've one ewe that is at least 7 crop, no teeth left and only brings up one lamb a year... but she was my first ewe and i brought her up on the bottle
;D Good to hear it's not just me ;) I'm having to sell all my sheep but my favourite ewe I'm giving to my Dad (also a smallholder) - she's a 5 shear and too old to be going up the fell but too good to be selling as a cast. He'll 'retire' her for me, he's had others of his own he's kept forever :)
Andy, sorry about your ewe with foot rot - sounds like you gave her the best chance possible :-*
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Ive actually managed to sell her to friends for mutton, £80 hope I dont sound like I am heartless person :yum: :yum:
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Not at all heartless andywalt - her feet clearly are never going to clear up; it would not be kind to keep her on when she is going to continually suffer the discomfort. And her discomfort would be worse if you kept her on for breeding. So you are doing the right thing and you have tried very hard to get the problem sorted before coming to this.
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i've watched this with interest...we too have an older ewe suffering with the same problem and despite all very best efforts keeps recurring sooooo......she has to go loathe to do so but has to be.....friends of ours keep pedigree Hampshires and have no issue culling pretty much at the first instance of footrot being of the opinion its an inherent problem will only serve to infect the rest of the flock and they don't want it :sheep:
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Well I think there are as many views on this one as there are sheep-keeping and vets... Here's mine and his.
If you cannot operate a closed flock then you want to be breeding for footrot resistance. If you operate a closed flock you can maybe try for eradicating the disease. It ain't easy - I suspect it's easier done where ground and climate are less wet than ours, too.
The downside of eradicating the disease from your farm is that if ever the germs do arrive, then unless you are vaccinating for footrot annually, the bulk of your flock will get an infection - and may have very little immunity or resistance to it. Hence why I say don't go this route unless you have a closed flock.
To breed for footrot resistance, don't cull the first time she has footrot. Treat it if you have to (some of them overcome a light dose without any or much treatment, most of ours will recover with a trim and some terramycin spray at most - and if you are trying to engender resistance, you don't want to be using antibiotic injections if you can avoid it) but if she comes down with it again, cull her.
Of course ewes which never get the disease in the first place are more resistant than those which need an infection to become resistant and ideally you'd have more of the first than the second.