The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Techniques and skills => Topic started by: clydesdaleclopper on May 19, 2011, 10:24:56 pm
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I'm having to admit defeat and use chemicals to treat the docks in one field. It is going to be ploughed and reseeded later in the year. I wanted some advice on which herbicide to use. I normally try to follow organic principles but the problem is just too big. I can keep the horses, sheep and goats off the area but the hens are more of a problem. What works without being a problem for the beasties?
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I'd ask Garden Organic. (HDRA as was.) They once advised me on chemical controls (not for docks so probably not appropriate here) when manual methods failed to manage a weedy cobbled yard. So they will offer advice in minimising environmental impact even if it's not organic.
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We had the sheep penned in a small paddock while they were waiting to be sheared and they were eating the dock apparently without ill effect. The horses won't touch it: I thought it was poisonous only in large quantities
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I think the worry was more eating sprayed docken.
I'd be interested in the answer too cos they're awful with us as well. People speak well of Pastor for effectiveness but badly of it for safety....? Just how unsafe is it for geese/goats/sheep? :-\
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Since I took the sheep off the ponies' paddock, suddenly we have docks :(
I have a recipe for an organic, non-selective herbicide. I've never used it but am planning to make some up and spot spray.
I found this in an old magazine. If you try it, remember it is non-selective i.e. it kills all plants. The good news is that it doesn’t persist on herbage or in the soil and residues are harmless.
• 4 litres of distilled vinegar
• 225g household salt
• 15ml detergent OR 1 litres of white or cider vinegar
• 120ml lemon juice concentrate OR juice of one lemon plus a teaspoon of salt.
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I'd ask Garden Organic. (HDRA as was.) They once advised me on chemical controls (not for docks so probably not appropriate here) when manual methods failed to manage a weedy cobbled yard. So they will offer advice in minimising environmental impact even if it's not organic.
Although I should maybe tell you the whole story...
We had an old cobbled stableyard outside the front door - absolutely beautiful. The now ex-hubby liked to see the cobbles and not the weeds that grew among them. We tried all the environmentally friendly ways (of which the best was my mum and a kneeler - kept her out of mischief all day and she enjoyed yerself no end - but you could clear a square metre in about half-an-hour : it just wasn't tenable as a summer-long solution, plus my mum lived 200 miles away ;) :D) Personally I rather liked all the little plants with their different leaves and flowers - a bit like an alpine garden!
Anyway, I told all this to the helpful HDRA people, seeking a solution we hadn't tried yet. Their first offering (which with hindsight turned out to have been good advice) was to leave the weeds where they were and change the husband!
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Many a true word is spoken in jest!
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Their first offering (which with hindsight turned out to have been good advice) was to leave the weeds where they were and change the husband!
Excellent ;D
That recipe contining vinegar and salt is good for places you never want to grow plants, ie maybe between cobbles. :) You can't use it where you will want to plant again since the salt will eentually make the soil unusable.
I'm currently using Roundup (glyphosate) very carefully........
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Our neighbour to one side has the equestrian centre (for 20 years)and she advised and uses Grazon 90,this destroys everything but the grass itself,she said it was not cheap but lasted for a very long time.But seeing as we do not have horses,we did not buy anyone-though still have more docks than ever!-may let the piggies in later ;) Our chooks run in this area though to cordon them off any time,we just use some spare electric fence.
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Whatever you use, you will have to keep the animals off it afterwards. I've heard Grazon 5 is good but you need to keep the animals off it for much longer than the time stated on the product. And one spray won't get rid.
Also there will be dock seed aplenty just waiting for you to turn that soil over!
Best thing to get rid of docks is sheep. They love 'em.
Next best thing to sheep to get rid of docks is cutting. Mow the docks to extinction. Takes a few seasons but it works.
Do you really need to reseed? If you plough the field and reseed you will be multiplying the docks by many thousand, beside the dock seed you will be cultivating, they regrow from the smallest bit of chopped up root.
Roundup is a no no - kills everything - and the grass will go first.
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So will sheep eat docks???? We have also admited defeat, just yesterday sprayed our field with Relay -P , works brilliant it kills everything including nettles and the dreaded ragwort,( no matter how much you dig it out it still comes back, mainly because a ragwort seed can last 20 years in the ground)
we only have horses in the field that is really bad its practically a jungle in there, anyway back to my question if weve sprayed it now and no more and getting sheep end of august is that ok???? It says to keep stock out for 2 weeks but it'll be 2 months that we are leaving it????
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Since I took the sheep off the ponies' paddock, suddenly we have docks :(
I have a recipe for an organic, non-selective herbicide. I've never used it but am planning to make some up and spot spray.
I found this in an old magazine. If you try it, remember it is non-selective i.e. it kills all plants. The good news is that it doesn’t persist on herbage or in the soil and residues are harmless.
• 4 litres of distilled vinegar
• 225g household salt
• 15ml detergent OR 1 litres of white or cider vinegar
• 120ml lemon juice concentrate OR juice of one lemon plus a teaspoon of salt.
I might give this a try as well.
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The salt persists in the soil and eventually prevents it growing grass or any other plants.
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Just remember Grazon 90 is persistent so you can't use the horse poo except back on the same pasture. It's on the label and the label is published on-line
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Please, please remember to let your local beekeepers know at least a day in advance if you are spraying so they can keep them in.
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It's safe with bees and hugely effective as a weedkiller as long as you don't want to use the manure
http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_034b/0901b8038034b6d9.pdf?filepath=/uk/pdfs/noreg/011-01455.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc (http://msdssearch.dow.com/PublishedLiteratureDAS/dh_034b/0901b8038034b6d9.pdf?filepath=/uk/pdfs/noreg/011-01455.pdf&fromPage=GetDoc)
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That's cool then. great that you've checked it out ... ;D
Our neighbouring farmers are good about letting us know, ever since a little incident earlier this year ... one of our neighbours had his field sprayed for something, the contractor decided to turn-up a few days early without letting anyone know (because of a cancelled job elsewhere) - I went tearing across the field like some banshee, arms waving - I must have looked like a madwoman :o The poor bloke didn't have a clue what he was spraying & had to phone the office to find-out whether it was ok for bees ::)
Fortunately it was - bet he got a few pints out of that at his local that night ;)
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Hi I was reading your article and mixture for killing dock. Has anybody used it? Can you also tell me how much to mix for ha? We have a field covered and we are organic so we can't spray but this could be a solution. If i could get subsidy on dock growing I would never have to work again!!! Thanks for your help
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I did read somewhere that healthy docks are very good for sheep as they carry a lot of vitamins in them. Dont take my word for it though it would be good to research.
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Sounds as though you should borrow some sheep, Sarah!
I didn't realise they ate them, but on reflection, my big patch of docks was non-existant last year after the sheep had been in. Just wish they'd do the same for the nettles and thistles. In farness though, they did eat off all the thistle flowers, so at least they didn't seed!
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BTW, our Zwartbles sheep love dock leaves, but the Manx Loaghtans (a primitive breed) wouldn't touch them. Interesting, as one might expect it to be the other way around.
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I'm sure there's something about they shouldn't eat too many dock leaves... :thinking:
My pet lambs this year wanted nothing but dock when I first put them out, I was tearing my hair out worrying they'd poison themselves! They seem to mostly prefer grass now, but one does often munch a dock leaf or two - and he is the 3/4 Shetland one, the others in that group are commercials.
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I'm sure there's something about they shouldn't eat too many dock leaves... :thinking:
No more than one of their 5-a-day perhaps? :)
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My sheep usually only go for the young leaves.
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Whatever you use, you will have to keep the animals off it afterwards. I've heard Grazon 5 is good but you need to keep the animals off it for much longer than the time stated on the product. And one spray won't get rid.
Also there will be dock seed aplenty just waiting for you to turn that soil over!
Best thing to get rid of docks is sheep. They love 'em.
This may not be quick enough for you due to the size of your grass area .
I've been using un diluted liquid round up in the following manner :-
Using metre length of 20 mm electrical plastic conduit , a 35 mm length of artificial cellulose car sponge pushed well in to the tube so only 8 mm is showing .
Using a horse sized syringe I've drawn off a syringe full of the round up , shot it down inside the tube and left it to soak through the cellulose sponge for 10 min or so ..... observed by the damp mark on the concrete slab where it was stood in a corner to keep it up right .
I then took a walk around the lawns & garden that's not done as raised beds and spot dabbed each offending weed as central as I could , wiping it up the stems of any of the higher plants with the damp with concentrated round up sponge end, ...hoping I've zapped them before they start producing seeds.
Results look promising , around each plant zapped there is a six inch dead or dying zone & it is starting to grow back after only 10 days . I gave it a second going over on Sunday evening for I noticed I'd missed a few weeds .
Had it not rained that first evening three hours after I did the lawns & garden I think the round up affected spot would not have spread as much
Both times after I finished doing the spotting , I pulled the sponge out ,rinsed the tube through and washed the sponge bit out in running water . Retaining the wash off in a bucket . This dilute round up then got chucked over a big area of nettles that's just outside of my property boundary lines .
They are signs starting to show of wilting at the nettle tops
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I'm sure there's something about they shouldn't eat too many dock leaves... :thinking:
My pet lambs this year wanted nothing but dock when I first put them out, I was tearing my hair out worrying they'd poison themselves! They seem to mostly prefer grass now, but one does often munch a dock leaf or two - and he is the 3/4 Shetland one, the others in that group are commercials.
It's on a poison list, possibly fiasco farms, so i worried and kept chasing goats off them on the way to the field, maybe I should give in :)
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I think the only sure way of getting rid of them is if you plow them up, that way the root come away and voila the ground is free, it has to be done at an early stage though, so no good when seeding.
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No don't plough :o you will just bring the whole seed bank to the surface ready to germinate. Dock seeds can last in the soil for an inordinately long time.
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No don't plough :o you will just bring the whole seed bank to the surface ready to germinate. Dock seeds can last in the soil for an inordinately long time.
ah right I thought it would be like rag so plow and get rid. I'll bear it in mind ty.
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My neighbour only ever cuts his fields for haylage and the docks built up terribly, last year he sprayed with glyphosate, ploughed, reseeded and has rolled, topped, fertilised earlier this year. The fields now have just the same number of docks with an addition of buttercups.
My fields with only my seven remaining Shetland sheep are dock free! The field for my goats now has docks sprouting, so I'll put the sheep in to clear them. The Shetlands are great for docks but useless for thistles and creeping buttercup :(
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Speaking from experience ploughing a field is a great way to create a perfect environment for docks!! We ploughed and reseeded one field (about 2 acres) a few years back and have spent every year since then spraying (usually twice) to keep the darned things under control. The seeds can lie dormant in the soil for 50 years plus, so they never go away and plough simply brings them to the surface. My sheep don't eat them so spraying is the only realistic option. We have previously used Hysward which does kill them, but not the seeds. This year we have used Grazon (which also does a grand job on nettles and brambles) but I don't imagine for one moment that the docks won't reappear next year. Grazon Pro (knapsack application) has a 7 day withdrawal before grazing or cutting so is reasonable (we can't easily afford to lose use of the land indefinitely and have noticed no effects on sheep post this period.
We are now considering overseeding the field to try to drown out the docks with something even more vigorous but ploughing (in retrospect) was the worst thing we ever did.
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top - top - top, even if you have to do it with a handmower. They will soon regress and grass will take over.
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Didn't it used to be Di-farnon-R for docs?
I know people who would spray pasture with a mix of blaster (MCPA?) and DFR as a cover-all to get softer weeds, and docs & thistles.
This was all 10 years ago mind...
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Chemicals work for that season but the docks do come back. Topping twice (at least) each summer works - but if you stop topping, they'll be back.
If they're not too extensive, certain types of sheep will eat them. If they've taken over the pasture, hard grazing is not a good plan, as (I believe) the sheep will suffer from excess oxalis acid.
A pig will rootle them too - although it gets worse before it gets better, as all the seeds in the soil get brought up.
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A late input to this thread, but grab a length of 20mm diameter water pipe (length to suit your stature) and take time-out to enjoy a walk though your fields, with your dog/s, swiping at the immature dock seed-heads as you go. Very satisfying I find!! (A bit of plastic water pipe is the best swiper that I've tested.) :)
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plastic dog ball thrower might be good too
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plastic dog ball thrower might be good too
Yeah, use a decent one though, I broke a cheap one doing this :D
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I use the curved end of my crook.
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I hope it is not your fav' crook you are using for swiping duties Buttermilk! I've been through quite a few hedge-found "crooks" used for weed swiping duties. One of which was actually rather nice - shame. Believe me, a bit of water pipe really is the best "tool" for the job.