The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: Fleecewife on March 28, 2011, 06:03:23 pm
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Hi Everyone. I have kept sheep for about 16 years and I am just beginning to contemplate whether a couple of goats would fit in. Being into rare breeds, my goat of choice would be the golden guernsey. Does anyone here keep them?
Looking at past messages, I see that some of you keep your goats and sheep together without major issues. I had heard that it was not a good idea, but lots of old farmers tales abound which I disagree with so I am happy to give the mixed grazing a go.
My main concern is that from the books - no, from Katie Thear's general livestock book - it look as if goats eat a vast amount and need special housing - she quotes 2lbs of concentrates a day plus browsing before they are even in milk. Our sheep live outside all year and whilst I would be prepared to provide goats with a warm, dry and draught-free house, I would prefer them to be outside most of the time. Is this appropriate or am I better to steer clear of goats?
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Hi fleecewife, we have 3 pygmy x female goats (aged 2) and as with all goats they go inside at the first raindrop and won't come out at all in the snow. We take them out and shut the door sometimes - having an overhang to your shed roof is a must really, we keep their hay rack under it too - its big enough to accommodate all 3 if it rains (their coats don't have lanoline like sheep). Now the weather is better they will come out themselves but they're pretty lazy really. You do have to clip their hoofs regularly - we have a quarry and that helps in the summer but for the rest of the year they need to be kept in good order or they hobble around - it's do-able but my best advice would be to make sure you get very young or very friendly goats which will let you handle them otherwise you'll have to rugby tackle them to the ground and sit on them to do it (the books don't show this but its how most people do it in real life!) If you do have to do it that way at least GG's are not too big. We have also found that we need an insatiable supply of big branches and roughage in the summer too - they love love fruit tree branches - we give them our ewe and lamb mix and they love grapes/kiwi juicey things - they're not hugely expensive to keep, its just the feet thing that needs control and you have to be physically able to handle it on a very regular basis. I was looking for some GGs too - let me know if you are successful, in the meantime I'm getting some small pure pygmy goats which is easier. Good luck, goosepimple
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If you want your goats to milk vaste amounts thenfeed them vaste amounts.
Read McKenzie's Goat husbandary
And Golden Guernsys are so rare you'll find them in every Fatm Park,zoo,and City farm in the country (Where you won't see our native goat)....but there again you won't see GG's on Geurnsey ;)
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I have GG's and am very happy with them. They don't come out in the rain, and snow is a no-no too. However i bet my shetland sheep could get used to being housed if given the choice in winter... (They aren't).
My GG gives about 2 - 3 ltrs per day during the summer, and that drops in autumn/winter. Goats do need special looking after on a daily basis, compared to sheep who will need a daily check and then a series of tasks every so often. So a goathouse is a must, good hay all year round too, and the feed bill for GG's can be cut by giving them branches and if it's too wet to go out I cut grass for them too and put into hayrack.
GG's are quite difficult to get hold off, there are a few breeders in the area (Northern England/Southern Scotland), but you would probably have to wait. The GGG society has a stock person, who will take details and get back to you with stock that people might have available.
If you want to chat about goats and GG's in particular you are welcome to visit, I have another GG to kidd on April 11th, but with my luck she will have three boys.... my other one had two... We are near St Boswells. Other GG breeders are in Dumfrieshire, Cumbria and Northumberland. I don't know if you know Jane Wilson, she also has Hebridian sheep, lives in Northumberland. She is BGS secreatry and also keeps GG's.
A word of caution: Goats are even more addictive than sheep and pigs!
PS.: There are GG breeders on Guernsey!
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Hi Fleecewife,
You have been given some good advice above, so I will only add that I have a friend who lives near Glenfarg who also keeps Golden Guernsey's if you are interested in seeing some more ( I think you might live nearer Anke, but I can't recall).
The things said above are pretty much what you need to know, a good, dry, draught free shed etc, hay available all year, worming, feet trimming, vaccination (all similar to sheep). Also remember if you are wanting to milk from them, you need to commit to milking (at least once a day, and twice if you take the kids away from the mum to bottle rear). Milking doesn't take that long once you are used to it, but it can take a little while to get used to it, and into a good routine. Milking goats do need some concentrates all year round, or otherwise they just won't produce much milk at all.
Beth
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Thanks everyone - that's all very interesting and helpful. I do know Jane Wilson but I thought she had given up her GGs, but perhaps I'm thinking of her Whitefaced Woodlands. I expect she will be at the RHS in June so I can talk to her then - or maybe I'll phone her :). Anke - I might just take you up on the offer to visit. You are about an hours drive from me but if I have to head in that direction at all I would love to come by and see your GGs.
Jinglejoys - I have McKenzie's goat husbandry, which my OH just dug out and handed to me so I will work my way through that.
We have plenty of good hay ie mixed species, made by us, and quite a lot of branches to feed. We have planted hedging all around our holding, protected from the sheep by normal height sheep fencing - will this be tall enough to prevent the goats from doing more than browsing the sides? Would they be able to jump that height of fence? OH would definitely not be happy if they demolished the hedges he has spent so long planting and nurturing. I already feed my surplus brassicas to the sheep in winter, so could grow more for Goats. OH does the sheep feet but is no longer up to rugby tackles so ladylike goats would be required :D
Our hardy, primitive, live-out-in-all-weathers sheep also tend to make a dash for the shelters at the first drop of rain so that wouldn't be a novelty. I would have to think hard about having animals which were housed for most of the winter though. We do have a couple of large loose boxes which could be adapted, but winter housing will be my sticking point. We don't need vast volumes of milk as there are just two of us most of the time, so spare milk and cheese could be stored in the fridge for when family visit, or for winter.
Do you eat your male kids?
What sort of price do breeding GGs sell for? :goat:
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"PS.: There are GG breeders on Guernsey!"
So glad to hear that :) I was talking to Elizabeth Briggs last week and she was saying you never see them on the common anymore only cross breeds and she hadn't seen any last time she went over
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Hi, sorry too busy to get to the PC, goat kids to feed....
re.: male kids - yes we eat ours, they are rubber ringed at about a week old, then reared alongside the females. However in comparison to lambs it is not a cost effective way of raising meat. The meat is also very different, brilliant for curries, not for quickfrying or roasting. No marbling in the meat, the fat is stored internally around the kidneys. We get ours done at Gala abattoir, collect the carcass and cut up ourselves. We do not sell the goat meat.
Price for pedigree GG's varies, I paid 250 pounds for a nanny with female kid two years ago. Beware of buying unregistered, there are quite a few "light brown" kids around, they will have GG in them, but not pure bred.
Unless my goatling has all female triplets I will not have any to sell this year, but I can enquire with a couple of people. My other GG nanny had only a male (again!). Emma Rose of the GGGS is really the person to speak to, she will know of anyone in the North of England/South of Scotland who has stock for sale.
Re.: Hedges - if you have normal stockfencing the goats may be able to put their heads through the netting - they can reach quite far! An electric top wire stops them to reach over the top, and they usually don't jump that either. Mine do however respect electric tape (3 strands) very well, even from a fairly young age.
Re Jane Wilson: She has got herd of GG's, but hers are horned. If you have netted stockfencing they would not be suitable. Her's are also not milked as far as I know.
Juliet - if you are coming our way, give me a call a few days before, I am usually around during the day, but have school runs etc. There is also a lady near Biggar with GG's, but her kids are not registered any longer. But I have used her males this last year.
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Thank you Anke.
I would not be buying this year - we have to reduce our sheep numbers first as we are at max capacity, so more sounding out the whole idea and gathering info.
Kid meat sounds a bit like primitive sheep - not much fat, slow cooking.
I would only buy registered stock, which is the whole point of keeping rare breeds - one of my soap boxes ;D. Great about the hedges then as we have electric stranding which can be put above the usual top wire - we are just about to put it around the outside of some of our land before the neighbour puts his hedge-munching cattle in the fields next to ours.
Ah, didn't realise there are horned v polled GGs - are they a separate type or does it just happen that way?
Any chance you could pm me the Biggar breeders name please just in case I know her?
If I do come over Anke it will not be until after lambing, so mid-May onwards, but I would love the opportunity to see your goats and ask all sorts of questions about management etc if you can spare the time - I am happy to help while we talk :).
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Hi Juliet - yes I am just about to start a long lambing season, use of two tups (one infertile) and all that....
Will pm you the details of the lady near Biggar.
Most goats will be disbudded (vet job, about 35 pounds per kid at ours) at four days old. At shows you will very rarely see any horned goats, most people don't like them. However quite a few GG's are kept horned. For us this was not an option, I have young children and want them to be able to handle them, also the fencing was insitu before the goats came. I have a polled male kid this year, his sire was polled and his dam also has some polled ancestors. Polled offspring usually results when at least one parent is polled, and if two polled animals are mated it is very likely that the kid(s) will be hermaphrodite. Mackenzie explains it all in great detail, I just know that polled to polled is a no-no.
With GG's it can be a while before stock is available, best to have a shed etc prepared and then you are ready to go when some become available.
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We house our goats every night and when the weather's bad. However I do know that other people that keep them (Old English's) do keep them outside in fields all the time, with a good field shelter, so perhaps we coddle ours a bit.
Golden Guerneys though presumably come from the Channel Islands where it's pretty warm......
If you want a hardier rare breed, what about Old English Goats? (www.oldenglishgoats.org.uk (http://www.oldenglishgoats.org.uk))
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Thank you jaykay - I didn't really know about them. They do seem hardier and beautiful in their own goaty way (actually I love them :)). So now I need to find out who keeps them in southern Scotland/northern England so I can see them and compare :)
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Irene McCreath who lives towards Dumfries (can't remember her address just now) breeds Old English- she is the only person I know of in Scotland who breeds them now. She goes to the Royal Highland every year. I can look out her number for you if you like.
Beth
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Yes please Beth, and I can see her at the Highland. Also I think I know the sec, if it's the same Thelma who also keeps Soays. I haven't met her in person but the Soay Soc is very small so I have corresponded with her in the past. The more I think about it, the more the Old English Goats seem better suited to our climate and set-up here - how fickle I am ::) :goat: But it is true that a hardy goat would be better suited to our conditions. I would still like to see your GGs please Anke so I can get a good picture of the two breeds and really understand what is involved with rearing both breeds.
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Yes, the Thelma that is the secretary of the OEGS also keeps Soays. She's in north Yorkshire but there a couple of members further north, one near Carlisle and the other near Hadrian's Wall (Gilsland). This is Charlie, who has lots and is the one who keeps them outside pretty much all the time.
You'd be very welcome to come and see ours Fleecewife - we're an hour down the M6 from Carlisle (we've kids due on April 19th!). Or I can put you in touch with Charlie.
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I think my GG's are pretty hardy, just don't like the wet. They have a very drafty shed (deliberately, I really don't like coughing animals), and if there are snow drifts in winter the snow stays inside too... mine have also never been rugged, even through the last two winters. But they eat mountains of hay in cold weather!!!
I think goats in general are very hardy, but don't like rain. That would be for all goats, as their coats just don't have lanolin, and they get soaked very quickly.
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Thanks for this thread its been reallly informative. We've been considering goats for next year so I'm starting to do my background reading. Old English certainly sound worth a second look!
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I have to say I agree with Anke, our shed is NOT overally warm, lots of fresh air is great, especially for young goats and male goats. We always expect our male goats to be tough, and we leave them out all night. The female goats go out grazing during the day, and the boys go out in the evening and stay out all night.
Beth
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Next Countryfile appears to include a bit about Golden Guernseys, so I will be watching. Once our lambing is over I will visit and investigate and try to make up my mind ;D :goat: :goat:
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Thank you jaykay - I didn't really know about them. They do seem hardier and beautiful in their own goaty way (actually I love them :)). So now I need to find out who keeps them in southern Scotland/northern England so I can see them and compare :)
You live "oop north"?You lucky thing you...takes me 6hrs to get up there to see Proper OE Goats!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y190/jinglejoys/Goats/Harrowboggoats.jpg)
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Lovely pic - it's hard to see where the wall ends and the goats begin, with their perfect cammo colouring :goat: That looks like a brand new slate roof on the shed. It will take me 2-2 1/2 hours to get down to see some at Hadrians wall and about the same to get down to jaykays if I am feeling speedy, then an hour to get across to see Anke's GGs. (which is why I can't make the visits until after our lambing is over) I love going down to England to see the huge trees down there, but I love it up here in Scotland where we are in reach of all the beautiful scenery of the far north, the Lake District and so on - as well as lots of lovely animals of course.
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But you've got lovely ferel goats in Scotland! http://www.camusnagaul.com/scottish/scotlandwildlifepictures-wildgoats.htm (http://www.camusnagaul.com/scottish/scotlandwildlifepictures-wildgoats.htm) http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4404 (http://www.walkhighlands.co.uk/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4404)
(If they haven't shot them all! :'( ) http://www.blackface.co.uk/products_detail.asp?prod=129 (http://www.blackface.co.uk/products_detail.asp?prod=129)
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We haven't shot them all...we only hunt things which annoy us up here.
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But the feral goats in Scotland could still be a few hours drive away from us.... Scotland is a big place!
Beth
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dont get to excited about the blackface meat co :wave:
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I've seen the feral goats down towards the south west, but they are behind fences now and being fed, so not so very feral. Lovely to spot though :goat:
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we use to have a gg, she was so sweet and gentle. would always talk to u. was never any trouble and didnt go far from our house. we didnt want a milking goat but had to milk her cos she was so engorged in the summer, even tho she had never kidded with us. she was lovely tho :goat: :love:
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Was watching Countryfile last night - Adam went to Guernsey to see these, then bought some from a couple to augment his own flock. I hadn't realised how rare these are - only 1000 in the whole country apparently. He bought 4, 2 of which were in kid and he's transport them after the kids were born. They looked in lovely condition, beautiful shiny flowing coats.
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I missed Countryfile so must try to find time to watch it on i-player. Their coats are glorious :) I wonder how they would cope with winter mud, or would they stay indoors til it had gone? We are not particularly muddy here, but it does happen in a wet year or after snowmelt.
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Missed it too - it was too nice a day to watch any telly.
I too have fancied getting GGs or Bagots and didn't realise Anke was just down the road from me with some! However, I am now getting pure registered pygmy goats which are much hardier, very friendly, easy to pedicure and low maintenance. I was at the vets today (puppy speying) and had a good conversation with the farm animal vet there and it was interesting what he said -any milking goats have feet problems on a regular basis and you really have to be on good terms with them to allow all the handling that entails (this I knew) and any goats which you intend to breed from should have annual injections (of which he mentioned about 3) which you shouldn't need with the 'wild' goats (hardys). Likely Anke uses the same vets as they are in St Boswells so perhaps he/she can comment on this. He said that he new someone years ago who bread pygmys and they were great fun and particularly hardy with harder feet which will suit us here as we have kids and holiday lets. However, it still doesn't stop me wanting the GG's or Bagots! May be worth watching that i-player.
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The other interesting thing that Adam said was that his Grandfather was the Founder Chairman of the Rare Breed Survival Trust. I was well impressed. ::) ;D
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His father - Jo Henson. The whole family has done so much for rare breeds - in fact without the Hensons it's possible that we wouldn't still have many of our rare breeds.
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Hi, yes I use St Boswells vets, and Nigel is very knowledgeable, and I think likes goats. My goats need twice a year vaccinations, once a year blood taken for CAE, and that's it for injections. Need worming as and when, and do their feet every four to six weeks in summer, and last time just before Xmas until after kidding. No other foot problems here, a touch of foot rot every so often (no lameness though), which comes from my sheep. But disinfectant gets rid of it, and I have not done anything stronger as it's not a real problem.
Yes I am fairly friendly terms with their undercarriage, as I am now milking three nannies twice a day (the last kidded last night and had her first taste/feel of milking - not a success as yet, but we will persevere). I absolutely love having them around, my GG's are long coated and have their coat brushed every couple of days during the summer. The BT loves a good brush too, but prefers my daughters to do it...
So I think different type of management, but tons of milk and for us some goat meat again this year (4 boys born and we are rearing two of them).
PS.: Anke is a she.
PPS.: Both my GG nannies had twin boys - so very disappointed. My second year of breeding GG's and still no registration in my own prefix! Better luck with the BT's, but they were intended as a sideline....
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What a pity, at least they were all born safely.....maybe that's why they're still on the rare breeds register! I do love the rough looking beardy ones the best. We were at Adams farm last year on holiday in the Cotswolds - it's worth a trip and its where we learnt about Soays and later bought some local to us, better still was the Tudor Farm - fantastically inspirational for anyone doing smallholding - worth a holiday in the Cotswolds just for that.
Never mind Anke, there's always next year and the more rare they are, the better the price...! ;)
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I stopped vaccinating when the Vets kept upping the amount of times a year they would need them(well they would wouldn't they ;) )Figured that if the vaccine only worked for 6wks it was doing more harm than good...that was 20yrs ago.
Don't have foot problems since I stopped pairing the feet every few weeks and haven't needed help with kidding for well over 20 yrs.
I've known Adam since he was knee high to a grasshopper,it was Joe that was a founder member of the RBST..great bloke.He and Ken and Elizebeth Briggs did so much for the Rare breeds