The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: OhLaLa on March 27, 2011, 09:55:45 pm
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What went wrong?
2nd lamb of twins born (much larger than first), came out and landed on it's back, head to one side (practically underneath it's side), no movement, we wiped it's nose, nothing, did the straw up nose to clear, then 'swung'. The lamb took a couple of breaths then died.
I'm not looking for kind words here, if I did wrong I need to be told so I don't make the same mistake again.
Will update you on progress of 1st lamb tomorrow.
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Somtimes this just happens, Im not an expert as you know but sometimes nothing works and the life slips away, we had one lamb from a set of twins it stopped breathing 3 times in 4 minutes, we would swing it, rub it, thena few minutes later it had stopped !!! so we repeated and started breathing, this happened 3 times, it did have alot of gunk coming up from the lungs, maybe it was that blocking the airway? hard to say, we were v lucky that time but sometimes we are not so lucky, dont beat your self up !!
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Yeah, I'm really upset about this, especially as it took a few breaths.
Wish I knew if I did the right thing.
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You have done nothing wrong from my opinion !!
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I've been there with puppies. It's always hard to lose something you have fought for. I can't see what else you could have done - vets keep a stock of a drug for pups brought from a caesarean but I can't remember what it's called. One drop under the tongue and they seem to take a deep breath and get started. Maybe it can be used on other animals too, but whether you are allowed to keep it in stock I don't know..
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My father in law used to use "easy start" it may have contained ethanol or similar, he said it would bring dead things back to life!!!! never really took much interest in those days like I do now!!!
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Yes, there is a similar spray for lambs - is it lamb start or something?
Unfortunately, with animals it happens. It does make you feel bad when they start to breathe, then stop again.
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It happens with humans too - when my daughter was born after a very long labour her lungs and tubes had mucous in them, she took a short breath then stopped again, then the doctors used a suction tube drew it all out and she started to breathe normally.
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It is possible that suctioning the lamb would have worked, but in fact swinging it has the same effect - like a spin dryer, pulling any mucous out (just make sure you don't clatter its head on the ground.....).
It is also possible/probable that the lamb had lungs which were incompletely formed in some way or immature so it had no chance of survival whatever you had done.
Another thing you could have tried is breathing into its mouth - tiny breaths as the lungs are tiny.
When you say you wiped the nose, did you sweep your finger right into the mouth to pull out anything in there? When it took the breaths, did the lungs sound rattly/wet?
Sometimes you try everything and nothing works. Probably just one of those things, I would say, but definitely worth trying to do better next time if it was a problem with your technique.
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It's a bit depressing - we lost one yesterday due in part to my inexperience. Unfortunatley, there's nothing you can do but try and learn from it. Don't beat yourself up about it (do as I say, not as I do). You tried, you'll try better next time. :bouquet:
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Well this week started badly for me too. One ewe lambed very dead lambs and another aborted this morning. Bit crappy but it happens. Just about the start the second batch of lambers which includes the ewe lambs so expect to have problems. Can only hope it gets better.
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Thanks everyone. I'm normally pretty 'sensible' about the stock but I'm taking this one hard. Thinking through loads of 'if I'd only' and 'maybe's'. Just wish I had more experience.
It is possible that suctioning the lamb would have worked, but in fact swinging it has the same effect - like a spin dryer, pulling any mucous out (just make sure you don't clatter its head on the ground.....).
It is also possible/probable that the lamb had lungs which were incompletely formed in some way or immature so it had no chance of survival whatever you had done.
Another thing you could have tried is breathing into its mouth - tiny breaths as the lungs are tiny.
When you say you wiped the nose, did you sweep your finger right into the mouth to pull out anything in there? When it took the breaths, did the lungs sound rattly/wet?
Sometimes you try everything and nothing works. Probably just one of those things, I would say, but definitely worth trying to do better next time if it was a problem with your technique.
Fleecewife, to help me improve, could you please explain techniques for:
swinging (head did not clatter)
suctioning the lamb
No sound at all from lamb, twitched it's nose a bit when I used straw, couple of breaths and then was gone. How far up the nose should the straw be inserted?
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We had it with one of our orphans - he was going for four days but we think he didn't have any colostrum from his mum so didn't have the greatest start. We had to stomach tube, glucose injections, rub his bum hole (massively constipated) etc etc followed by a trip to the vet - who thinks we're mad. I was really saddened by it when he died, but there was nothing else we could have done. Like Rosemary says, don't beat yourself up about it (do as I say, not as I do!!!)
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I think we have all experienced the 'what if I did this' syndrome when it comes to seeing something die or getting ill.
Think of your successes - it helps me.
I'm not saying dont pick up tips and ask questions to try and learn - but sometimes nature does run its course and sometimes its not fair.
Baz
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Sorry to hear this, it happens to everyone but it's horrible when it's you. We use Lamb Kick-start - I think the company is Collate or something like that, but I'm not sure if it would have helped in this instance, it's really for weak lambs.
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Hi,
Sounds to me like none of the Kick Start, Lamb Care Intensive, Lamb Tonics etc would have worked in this instance. They depend on the lamb being able to (and having time to) absorb the nutrients / Glucose etc through their gut.
You did the right thing and I dont think there was much else you could have done.
Just out of interest, was the first lamb born a long birth? as we have had this before with the second of a pair of twins and have put it down to distress whilst sort of waiting to be born.
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Thanks, I'll take a look for the Lamb Kick-Start and add it to the first aid kit.
Just to update, the firstborn ewe lamb seems to be doing ok, took a couple of little leaps this morning. Mum is a bit quiet - not eating much this morning (lambed late last night), drank little water last night but drank appx 1/2 bucket this morning, she's mostly staying in the shelter (field shelter with small exterior hurdle pen set up) with the lit lun. Her udders VERY heavy, no heat or hardness but am keeping a very close eye on them both. Will go and pop a bit of ivy in there this afternoon too.
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Just out of interest, was the first lamb born a long birth? as we have had this before with the second of a pair of twins and have put it down to distress whilst sort of waiting to be born.
The 1st lamb arrived appx 9pm, can't say for sure how long that birth was (teeny wee thing though), we'd been keeping a close eye on her all day and finally sat to eat very late when it all began. It did however seem quite a while before the 2nd (a large ram lamb) arrived (normal presentation). Mum didn't try to lay down until the last couple of minutes before delivery, but was restless between births.
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sounds very similar to the last of ewes to lamb, she was restless all day and at tea time another ewe was lambing right next to her pen, she kept thinking they were her babies so took a long time to birth the first lamb, who was very strong and feed almost constantly, the ewe was very attentive, and did not seem to having a second lamb, so I waited for afterbirth. After an hour she gave a few pushes standing up, but without much conviction, when out popped a back leg, felt for the other leg and pulled out a larger ram lamb who didn't move at all I cleaned his mouth and nose and even tried swinging him, but to no avail, I thought I felt a faint heart beat, but my husband said no, perhaps wishful thinkin on my part :'(
Again lots of what-ifs, and things I should have done, but she is a very experinced ewe and we've never had problems with her before, so thought she was only having 1 lamb, so didn't investigate earlier, guess she was just to wrapped up with the other ewes lambs and then her first 1, it was a sad end to our lambing this year. its not easy but sometimes these things happen, and next time things may work out well and you will feel so pleased to have saved a life :)
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The product used by the vet is called DOPRAM-V does puppies /lambs /calves etc,from your description chances of survival were low sorry
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Sorry to here of the loss of the little one .I don't have any more ideas than what has already been said. just like to comment on giving a few breaths-please don't!! I have a med lab background and the birth tissue and fluids are sometimes the highest carriers of disease that can be transmissible to humans.-all humans not just pregnant women.
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Oh dear I havnt changed my 'lambing' jeans for a month!! Must go and change before I get scrot rot or some other disease:)
Baz
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I lost one last week. We tried everything we could to get the lamb going properly. We thought we was there and it then promptly died on us.
We still find this very upsetting after all this time. So don't beat yourself up about it as sometimes they were just not born to survive.
It is all a learning curve, and you will enjoy the ones that do make it.
Kaz x
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I had a still born triplet to start lambing and last week a lovely little (big) ram lamb running with mum for 6 hours then went limp and died with a full tummy, the fox has taken 2 lambs from mums in the home paddock just hasn't been a good year for us either. Sometimes with new borns there are problems you just can't see.
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I had a still born triplet to start lambing and last week a lovely little (big) ram lamb running with mum for 6 hours then went limp and died with a full tummy, the fox has taken 2 lambs from mums in the home paddock just hasn't been a good year for us either. Sometimes with new borns there are problems you just can't see.
Jeeez, you're having a hell of a time, Rach.
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I have learnt lessons (just wish I had more hands on practice).
One of them is next year I'm bringing them in to lamb. Part of reason I didn't opt for that this year is I bought them in-lamb and the due dates were very much guesstimated.
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Will post pic under new thread in the next few days.
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Jeeez, you're having a hell of a time, Rach.
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Tell me about it but if I catch the blinking fox he'll know what has hit him as they where both ewe lambs >:(. So out of 8 lambs born I now have 5, which is a close run year this year. One more ewe to lamb who likes things her own way and in her own time she did the same last year.
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It's true that sometimes the lambs won't "go" no matter what you do, but you can be really quite firm qith them when trying to get the breathing started.
Yes, clear the mucous off the nose. Squeeze the nose quite firmly and move the hand down over the nose and away - rather like trying to get the last bit of toothpaste out of the tube.
If that doesn't do it, pick the lamb up by the back legs and give it a shake and then drop it on the floor - not from a great height. This sometimes gives them the shcok they need to get breathing. Next pick the lamb up, again by the back legs, and swing it around, not just to and fro, but right round in circle - over your head as if your arms are a windmill. Do that a few times and then drop it in the floor again. You could then try rubbing the rib cage to get some movement.
Just keep on doing these three things, and don't give up. You can keep trying for several minutes, before you give up hope.
Cold water in the lamb's ear sometimes works.
I have got a video clip somewhere of Tim getting a lamb going that the vet had to deliver - I could post it up if I knew how.
In essence, don't be too gentle.
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sandy every time i hear of easy start i think of the austrailian version start ya bastard i kid you not goggle it or stevie G or blonde may confirm :wave:
sorry to go of topic :wave: :wave:
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Thank you Worzel and VSS, informative and appreciate you taking the time to reply. Have added the info to my notes.
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ellisr: Sorry hear you have had a couple of lambs taken. Taking my own post off topic but can I ask how old the lambs were and what fencing the fox had to get through (I'm guessing they were taken overnight?).
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One was taken in the morning between me glancing out of the window, making a coffee and walking up to the home paddock and the other was taken during the night. We have 2 fences (stock fencing) and 2 electric fences for them to get through, based on where I found the leg from one. We have a big fox problem at the moment in the area so I think they are more determined than normal to get food.
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One was taken in the morning between me glancing out of the window, making a coffee and walking up to the home paddock and the other was taken during the night. We have 2 fences (stock fencing) and 2 electric fences for them to get through, based on where I found the leg from one. We have a big fox problem at the moment in the area so I think they are more determined than normal to get food.
That's bad news. Wishing you and your animals all the best.