The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: porkandapples on March 13, 2011, 10:45:07 am
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Is it normal practice for a breeder to castrate the boars or would this be something a buyer specifically requests? and would you expect to pay more for this?
Thanks :)
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Can only speak as an expat here in France - boars are most often sold as castres, which is done by the breeder at around 3 days old. Prices are normally higher for females.
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we have had a big stoshie on this subject before but castrated males do not give of the boar taint(lillian just butchered 2 saddelbacks 1 boar(intact)1 gilt and she could detect the boar taint without it being cooked) up to 4 days old the breeder can castrate(cutting not tearing) after 4 days it is only the vet that can castrate it is also a usfull tool to prevent substandard pedigree boars being used even if sold for meat
the vets costs would be factored into the cost of the pig
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We've never experienced any boar taint from our uncastrated boar weaners. Having said that, they have been kept in all male groups and slaughtered at about 8 months old. I don't think anyone here, apart from Lilian, has said they've detected boar taint and there are a number of threads on here about the same subject.
IMHO, if you can avoid these mutilations, then you should.
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Is it normal practice for a breeder to castrate the boars or would this be something a buyer specifically requests? and would you expect to pay more for this?
Thanks :)
I only castrate to order and I do them all of next month. I keep them 2 years then they go to sale for makeing hte best sausages. Two year old meat is the best there is for making sausages before or after that the meat is not at is premium
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blonde have you done costings for keeping the castrates to 2 years old also what weight and what price do you get (i take it that you will price it in aus dollars)
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they would be very expensive sausages over here.
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I never castrate. Usually keep boar weaners up to six months but have kept them up to 8 months without any problems. No taint at all - and no complaints either.
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Liz what we could do (at the next A G M ) bring the George foreman grill and cook sausages from a gilt or castrated boar then cook sausages from an entire male at 8 months or over and compare i think with bill,nick,Carolyn and yourself present the results would prove one way or another :wave:
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Hi all you posters on this thread can I ask a question. Please forgive my ignorance as a non pig keeper at the moment (getting some soon) but I'm genuinely intrigued with this issue…..So don’t spit roast me over my questioning please…..Here goes! ::)
I can see where there could be a possible animal welfare issue with this, especially as stated some find it not necessary for the finished product.. If I read correctly you can castrate at home up until 4 days, thereafter a vet is required.
Question………Why for 4 days is it OK to castrate at home and thereafter a vet is called?. What procedure does the vet do that’s different?
Question……… The boar taint is it that bad that the quality of meat is affected?. Is it the taste or smell of the cooked product that’s affected.
Just curious, thanks in advance for any reply’s
Dave
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glentarki after 4 days the vet uses Anastetic(a local injection)
boar taint is found in entire male pigs that are mature(IE sexually active)
some people can detect its smell either raw(when butchering the animal) or when cooking
now just because it appears that a minority can detect it it does not mean it does not exist(just because some people can identify an engine by the note emitting from that engine does not prove that they are in some way of the mark)
once it has been pointed out to you the smell of boar taint you will recognise it thereafter
to take this further some tups if slaughtered when they are sexually active have a similar taint
now the next question is why not leave the pigs to they are outwith the breeding season this only works if the boar is slaughtered at 6 months or younger WHY because pigs can breed all year round also once they go over 120kilos there are few slaughter houses that can take them and any that do normally export them to Russia and the Baltic states
now do want to be left to devour 300+kilos of what could be tainted meat i did hear of somebody that fed his pigs only cauliflower and when cooked even his dog would not eat the meat
hope this answers you query :wave: :wave: :wave:
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Thanks Lillian Waddell very well explained, no doubt at some point once I have the experience with some home bred pork I will relate to what you have said.
I take it Antarctic is a local pain/sedative relief injection given to pigs prior to getting their bits removed? .....What do you and others use when doing the procedure at home up to the 4 day mark?
Thanks for responding :)
Dave
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Thanks Lillian Waddell very well explained, no doubt at some point once I have the experience with some home bred pork I will relate to what you have said.
I take it Antarctic is a local pain/sedative relief injection given to pigs prior to getting their bits removed? .....What do you and others use when doing the procedure at home up to the 4 day mark?
Thanks for responding :)
Dave
I dont use anything and castrate on day one....small and unassuming...no idea what is happening. Easy to do on one own with any squealling or struggling. Still dopey from being borne....
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glentarki it was misspelled now corrected
we do the same as blonde
NOW AS A POINT OF INTEREST WHEN THE JEWS CIRCUMCISE DO THEY USE AN ANISTECTIC
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We've never experienced any boar taint from our uncastrated boar weaners. Having said that, they have been kept in all male groups and slaughtered at about 8 months old. I don't think anyone here, apart from Lilian, has said they've detected boar taint and there are a number of threads on here about the same subject.
IMHO, if you can avoid these mutilations, then you should.
I've never had pork that's inedible due to taint BUT I can smell a difference when certain pork cooks and it's not a smell that makes me want to eat it (but I'm super fussy about smells and cooking since being pregnant and having a bad experience with a pot of boiling tatties on Xmas day) :-\
I do think castration, providing it's done correctly and strictly adhereing to the welfare guidelines, is worth it.
For 2 reasons, as already mentioned
1) You've no chance of having an entire pig ruined due to taint. This also gives you the option of running them with gilts without unexpected/unwanted pregnancies (handy if you've got limited space/fenced areas or low weaner availablity) and it keeps them a bit calmer and more subdued.
2) From a pedigree breeding point of view. If I thought a boar was not good enough to breed from (in terms of conforming to the breed standard) I wouldn't want any unscrupulous people buying him, claiming to be going to eat him, only to find out he was being used for breeding. As someone who wants to have a good reputation for the quality of their stock, this could affect things.
An extra reason too is that I find castrated boars to be much more laid back and chilled (there is a safety concern with large, uncastrated boars) Now maybe it's from the Kune Kune side of things ? But as KK breeders we must NOT sell uncastrated boars as pets - it's just a huge no-no. But (just to confuse things more) my KK's are all 'done' by the vet, under anesthetic @ 6 weeks old - due in part to the hernia issue and in part cos I'm a big softy ;) When the time comes for my 'big' pigs to be done I'm sure I'll be reaching for a bottle of anesthetic (for them) or the phone to phone the vet to do it ;) ;D
HTH
Karen x
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NOW AS A POINT OF INTEREST WHEN THE JEWS CIRCUMCISE DO THEY USE AN ANISTECTIC
C'mon (Robert ?) it's not the same thing ;)
When men go for vasectomies they get local anesthetic - THAT'S castration. Can you imagine trying to do that without ;) ;D ;D ;D
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As Lillian says - there is no doubt that boar taint exists, and some people are very sensitive to it.
However we have not experienced it, and do not castrate. Indeed we have used boars a year old to impregnante gilts and then chopped them with no problems.
In England, castration comes under The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (England) Regulations 2007, and in Wales under the The Mutilations (Permitted Procedures) (Wales) Regulations 2007, both of which state under schedule 3 part 1
1. Castration
The method used must not involve the tearing of tissues.
An anaesthetic and additional prolonged analgesia must be administered where the animal is aged 7 days or over.
Section 5 of both regulations permits castration by a non-vet if carried out within 7 days.
Don't know scotland offhand, or if it's 4 days there.
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its still using a sharp blade on a delicate bit remember cutting not tearing
they used to castrate young bulls with bardizzos not a blade used or anesthetic :wave:
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An extra reason too is that I find castrated boars to be much more laid back and chilled (there is a safety concern with large, uncastrated boars) Now maybe it's from the Kune Kune side of things ? HTH
Myabe KK, we have had no problem with numerous Oldspot and Saddleback boars. Our breeding boars always have at least one girl with them, and this keeps them well chilled, and they are dopey as hell.
Lillian, Personally I do not favour breeders castrating their own, and suspect it is only a matter of time before this is outlawed on welfare grounds. It is the only invasive procedure that is allowed to be carried out by amateurs, and is in my view very different from circumcision.
PS if it is Robert who is posting - isn't it time to get your own account (they are free you know!), so we know who is saying what :)
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oaklands i agree it is not for amateurs(our vet showed us how to perform this)
will it be banned at the same time notching is no longer practised
Lillian and Robert work as a team he makes the balls Lillian is the target(not the same balls as discussed)
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I've kept uncastrated boars running with a sow until 9months and had no problems with 'taint'. None of my customers have ever compained either.
I haven't and won't castrate boar piglets, I don't think that watching a vet do it a couple of times qualifies anyone for the procedure.
None of my litters have ever been that dopey from being born that I would feel it was ok to take a scapel to their scrotum without the use of anaesthetic or analgesia.
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now this is getting very interesting both oaklands and skidley
training vets how often have they to perform a set procedure before they progress from amatures to being proficient and who better to show you how to perform this yes your right the vet
oaklands if a complete novice buys your book then enrols on one of your courses at what point do they become armatures or progress beyond this milestone in carring and attending to pigs ?
now we may be lucky in that our vet when he came to castrare the first time said we were more than proficient to perform this procedure ourself it may also be that we have had an unbroken working relationship since 1964 and before with them :wave: :wave:
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I know I watched more than once or twice when I was learning how to castrate cats, and at least they were anaesthetised!
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oaklands i agree it is not for amateurs(our vet showed us how to perform this)
People become proficient through learning/training and subsequent practise. How long each person takes depends on their aptitude for the task in hand.
I think we agree, that it needs to be a taught and practiced process if it is to be carried out.
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IMHO, if you can avoid these mutilations, then you should.
dehorning a young heifer would upset me more than castrating young piglets! obviously if injury is the reason, that is different, but to think that horns have no use...then they would not be there in the first place. >:(
my calves use their horns very well indeed when destroying my washing line ;D ;D
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dehorning even with nerve blocker can be upsetting even to the one with horns :'( :'( :'(
but nothing compared to getting a horn up your arse :wave:
the horns are there to defend themselves now we really are on the horns of a dilemma ;) ;) ;) ;)
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i bet the female tasers are less sympathetic to the boar weaners than the blokes tho, lol. we had dodgy meat b4, dont know if it was boar taint or cured badly but i think id choose a castrated weaner if just was bought to finish. i dont think id get the vet to cut an 8 week weaner tho cos would be expensive i imagine.
i find i can still "smell" the animal even when its meat, even poultry. i think if u gut it yourself it puts u off a bit.
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Great information, very informative and I can see a very individual choice to do or not. It was the castration procedure being done without a vet in those first 4 days that alarmed me most, still does if I’m to be honest………….However a learning curve for me and I’m absorbing as much of the varied thoughts on the process that have been discussed here :)
Dave
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one of the the plus points of castration if you have an abattoir than can take big pigs castrated males (300kilos) will give you a better eye of bacon better one big pig than 5 60kilo pigs
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blonde have you done costings for keeping the castrates to 2 years old also what weight and what price do you get (i take it that you will price it in aus dollars)
they weigh 195 - 205 kg and I sell them for 600 aus dollars.
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glentarki after 4 days the vet uses Anastetic(a local injection)
boar taint is found in entire male pigs that are mature(IE sexually active)
some people can detect its smell either raw(when butchering the animal) or when cooking
now just because it appears that a minority can detect it it does not mean it does not exist(just because some people can identify an engine by the note emitting from that engine does not prove that they are in some way of the mark)
once it has been pointed out to you the smell of boar taint you will recognise it thereafter
to take this further some tups if slaughtered when they are sexually active have a similar taint
now the next question is why not leave the pigs to they are outwith the breeding season this only works if the boar is slaughtered at 6 months or younger WHY because pigs can breed all year round also once they go over 120kilos there are few slaughter houses that can take them and any that do normally export them to Russia and the Baltic states
now do want to be left to devour 300+kilos of what could be tainted meat i did hear of somebody that fed his pigs only cauliflower and when cooked even his dog would not eat the meat
hope this answers you query :wave: :wave: :wave:
Were are allowed to do this on the farm until day 21 and then it becomes a job for the vet. Too , Too , Too big I am afraid to say. done on day one when first born best time to do
them. If I miss the day then they are not done at all, but go through the system as an entire boar but only to pork. Dont do bacon any more....too hard,(not 21 anymore) but yes do barrows and only do to order each year.