The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Galician Smallholder on March 05, 2011, 07:36:24 pm
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I have 9 Sow’s all approx 1.5 years old they spend the days outside and the nights in. They have been fed quality pig feed in the mornings and potatoes at night and they have approx 5 hecters to roam about it with a waterhole / wallow area. I clean out their pens every morning and think as pig pens go they are very clean. Usually all the Sows and piglets are as happy as larry. So I was surprised to fid one of the Sows this morning not standing up waiting for her breakfast. Instead she was laying down. I poured her feed into the trough and she just stayed there. It was a nice day so I left her pen open to see if she wanted to go outside which she did, without any problems she got up and walked out to have a drink. I noticed vomit (well it smelt like vomit) in the pen so put it down to an iffy stomach and was going to take further action if she didn’t eat her supper this evening. When I went up to the field this evening I found her dead in her favourite spot amongst the hay!!!!!! Has this happened to anyone else ??? and which could be the cause. It would have to be a serious virus to kill a 90-100kg pig in less than 10 hours. Possible a stomach problem ???? Any words of wisdom much appreciated
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don't know what it is/was but so sad for you :bouquet:
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Sorry to hear that - could it have been a stroke or a heart attack?
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Sorry to hear. Could she have eaten anything poisonous?
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Re eaten something dodgy there is a lot of land they can munch away in but its mostly pasture with thorn bushes round the edges. Didnt think about heart attack...although would she had vomited prior to the heart attack.
Another question, the sun was setting when I found her, so was only able to cover her up where she was, anyone disposed of a pig before...i havent usually its on my own terms.
Thanks again
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Are you in the UK? If so I believe you have to get the knackerman to take them away as fallen stock. Not allowed to bury on your land I'm afraid.
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no Galicia Spain, going to call the vet in the morning find out the law here.
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My sympathies, we haven't lost one like this, so can only offer general points.
I can't see anything you could have done - she was getting up and drinking, so like you I would have said - ill pig but no great concern, leave 24 hours and expect her to get better.
My only thought would be about the potatoes - were these cooked or raw? Green potatoes are poisenous in larger quantities to pigs (one or two will just make them feel off). I gather this is due to an alkaloid, called solanine. This develops in potatoes when they are stored in the presence of light (which also encourages chlorophyll formation giving green hue).
My other thought is whether something is starting to grow, or come into flower in the area at this time of year. Have you had pigs on here for more than a year (so have seen the full cycle of plant life)?
Obviuosly keep an eye on the others, but if no-one else shows signs, then hopefully this is a one off.
You could get her PM'd, but this would be very expensive, and probably be inconclusive. However if a second one succumbed, I would PM it immediately.
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Firstly I am so sorry for your loss, terrible thing to happen especially as she is so young.
From a friend's experience, they fed raw potatoes as an evening feed. All were fine the evening before, the following morning they found their favourite 2 year old sow dead. Vet did an autopsy. The potatoes were thought to have been a contributary factor. Sorry this is probably not very helpful.
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i will leave the tea and sympathy for others
one of the first signs that pigs are ill is when they don't act as normal where you have livestock it follows you will get deadstock (at some point in time) the water your pigs should have 24hr access to it when you first noted her illness you should have called the vet and been more vigilant not leaving her to nighttime are you familiar with the symptoms of the notifiable diseases that affect pigs is there rats would you know the signs to look for has a neighbour been laying down poison has it ingested a dead or dying rat
may i also suggest that your pig is under fed for a sow to weigh 90- 100k at a year and a half unless she is a kune kune
with your experience i would get her P M just to give you peace of mind and possibly prevent it happening again and if she is diseased you can take preventative action
it is all part of being a responsible pig keeper
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I'll go with the wraw patatoes as well, as they can not be feed in large quanties raw, and are always better cooked.
Other problems that cause sudden death in sows are poisonous plants, mastitis, Metritis, bacterial septicaemia ie Erysipelis(diamond shapes on skin), PRSS, Cystitis(seen as blood or pus in urine), Acute stress(fighting with anther sow), Heat stroke(your winter so probably not that?) or Pneumonia(seen in the way she breaths, no appetite,etc.), along with a few others!
Is most likely none of the above, but ones to be considered.
As stated, if its a one off then I would be too concerned, but if there are more cases, then call your Vet.
Stay healthy! ;D
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As a matter of curiosity Stevie G how long have you been keeping pigs ?? for you to have experienced all these aliments. As for the potato idea we fed raw whole potatoes for several years and never encountered any side effects. Possibly we were lucky or more vigilant
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I think most if not all but one are happy to be sympathetic GS - I really feel for you. You must already be wishing you had called the vet sooner - but hindsight is a wonderful thing and judgement from afar much easier than making that call at the time.
I had a poorly pig that wasn't keen on eating and didn't call the vet until the second morning of not eating either - because she could be encouraged up and to drink, I called the vet when the second sow started to show the same signs that next day. They had a virus of some sort - had antibiotics and recovered fine. However - when they came to give birth a few weeks later - Ruby the first sow had three dead piglets inside her and a fourth died straight after birth. I think the virus affected on side of her litter. The other three came on brilliantly and she was a fabulous mother. She is in pig again now with her second litter.
Unfortunately it's all a learning curve and this forum should be somewhere we can ask stuff without being judged put down and patronised.
Please let us know how you get on and how you had to dispose of her. I do feel for you. Really hope all the other pigs are ok.
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this forum should be somewhere we can ask stuff without being judged put down and patronised.
Well said ! :)
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leri i can see your thinking on this can you not see my line of thought on this
with major disease outbreaks it is the first 24 hrs that can make the difference betwean a small outbreak or a major disaster
this may not be the case in this instance but who knows it is in Spain and they have not updated
now if they were in my area and my stock had to be destroyed because somebody was on a learning curve well i will stop there
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I can see your reasoning LW but there are ways of saying things and lots of 'smileys' that can assist you to replace the body language we can see when we are talking face to face. That is what they are there for, DO use them ;D :-*
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dogandjo, i write replys on this forum with words not wee smileys.
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L.W
I don't post that often anymore but, NO ONE KNOWS EVERYTHING, having read many of your posts on many of the pig threads it feels as though you like to lecture NOT pass on friendly advice[which is what pretty much everyone else seems to do on this forum] I may just be misreading the itended tone of your posts but i feel the need to say this. No matter how long anyone keeps livestock they will never know everything there is to know, yes they will have a wealth of knowledge but not it all. Every one has to learn and eveyone makes mistakes anyone who says they have never made one is either lying or has never tried to do anything. People generally accept advice better when it doesn't rub them up the wrong way [for want of a better way of putting it.] This is NOT meant to offend but it just feels reading your posts that the threads can become more intense and often defensive which i feel does nothing to increase learning or the sharing of knowledge.
You obviously have plenty of experience and info to pass on if it was given in a more relaxed tone it would be accepted more readily be easier read and help many more novice pig keepers.
All the best
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gavo,
i do not lecture, surely if someone has a sick animal they are going to check it several times a day and not once in the morning and once at night. I agree we all learn something new everyday for if we don't we are no longer breathing air. I am not easily offended, sometimes people do not like reading the truth and if that offends them, then why does it offend them?
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It is not the truth that offends but but how it is delivered that offends.Don't forget people can feel worried or even guilty about their action /inaction toward their animals when they post on here, constructive advice is what they need in response not being made to feel any worse than they have made themselves feel already.I do agree i would have checked the animal more frequently, but we don't know why it wasn't checked more often there could be a valid reason, or perhaps someone else was checking during the day for him and didn't feel the need to contact him.
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personally i feel LW calls an ace an ace. its easy to get complacent with animals but we still have a duty of care and responsibility. everyone makes mistakes and this forum does offer advice, clarifys issues and also teaches others so they dont need to learn the hard way.
i think LW's advice is mainly spot on on and if it makes for uncomfortable reading, it may mean we need to raise our own standards, which can only result in better pig welfare. i think farmers and smallholders may come into same predictament from different angles and sentiments but we still have to achieve the same results. its a steep learning especially if ur not from a farming background. also buying poor quality pigs or dogs or any animal is encouraging the breeding of these. i think we should aim for quality in breeding, purchases and husbandry, its just we all make mistakes in achieving this.
im sure GS does feel bad that the pig died, if she didnt she shouldnt be keeping them in the first place. what matters is that we all learn from it and feel open to talk about it.
i think LW could be the Simon Cowell of the Pig forum ( ;) lol :D).
LWs tough to impress but she knows whats she talking about and is happy to give the advice that people are generally asking for. we dont always want or need a polite reply, sometimes we need to hear the truth.
im not an expert in pigs but have learnt so much from this forum. :love: :love: :love: :love: :pig: :love: :love: :love: :love:
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dogandjo, i write replys on this forum with words not wee smileys.
Lillian, the problem is that your words consistently aren't clear enough to get your message (or thinking) across. I don't understand several parts of your reply to GS.
If you're not going to use smileys (or emoticons as they are properly named - we don't always smile) please at least use punctuation and sentences; it might help to avoid the feelings of patronisation and denigration your replies often seem to ellicit, especially when people are looking for help.
As has been said before (and Gavo said it again here) you've clearly got a lot of experience that many people on here would benefit from, but that can sometimes be lost in the delivery.
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Thank you princess for your support :) :) :) :) :) :) :).
Dan if only we all had your comand of the English language ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) maybe then i would concider writing books and providing courses, as it is just now we will not be doing either :o :o :o :o :o
If only the rose tinted spectacles scenario were applicable (i had them in the 70s) but reality kicks in :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
With any animal you have a duty of care, anybody can currently procure any form of livestock and set up what ever enterprise they wish, some will be successful, others will well we have seen the headlines
Dan if there is some points you you are not clear on come back to us and ask for clarification strange as it may seem we wont bite you :wave: :wave: :wave:
Hope nobody is offended at this post
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i understood everything in LW's post to GS. i still think we need real answers to the questions here, not just P/C and theoreticals one. the scenarios are real, so are the people and livestock behind the questions. and often advice that is sort after is what cannot be found easily in the text books.
this forum is great, alot more open and genuine than others i have looked at. and advice is usually pretty quick to get, sometimes quicker than your own vet, as i found out when delilah was ill.
GS, im sure u did what you thought was best at the time, hind sight is a wonderful thing, wev made loads of mistakes since we moved to this farm 6 years back (i could still cry now). but im determined not to repeat the same mistakes again. if your not born into farming (i wasnt) u have to scrabble around for the info that others would just know automatically.
Everybody be happy, the sun is shining and its gorgeous out there today, so enjoy ur animals :love: :love: :wave: :love: :love:
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It ain't sunny here but it's dry so life ain't bad. Great to have a frank exchange of views, i wasn't trying to "have a go" at anyone, just want to ensure no one is afraid to ask questions because they are worried how they will be treated in the replies, that's all.I reckon we're all here for the same reasons basically, just from slightly different angles which ain't no bad thing.
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Just to get back on topic GS have you considered the possibility that your pig if she was a digger had a stomach full of stones & soil. I have come across two such cases in recent weeks where the symptoms you describe have been that very thing. Even if you had called in the vet it would have been very likely that nothing would have been able to be done for her so don't beat yourself up about it. Pig keeping i agree is a steep learning curve and you learn all the time. One of my best gilts has to be butchered this week as i can't get her in pig, i'm very heartbroken about it all and feel like giving up but i know i'd miss my pigs too much and its just one of those things, i know i can't keep them all but it hurts like buggery to have to make this descision, and that as they say "thats pig keeping!".
HTH
mandy :pig:
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The big question," were has the original poster went"??
If i were to write about all the disasters, deaths and life incidents that has occurred to us and our animals, you will be searching for the blue pills to end the misery :o :o :o Fortunately we don't go about looking for sympathy, which may explain why we don't serve large platefulls to all and sundry ?? Take for instance, you hear somebody on the radio, you build a mental picture of the person, then you see a photo of that person and you are way of the mark. That i think, is a synopsis of the attitudes by some on here. Sorry if this offends.
If anybody feels aggrieved by postings on this forum, NOT COMMENTING is in my oppinion worse than restraining yourself. Pigs by there very
nature can be cannibals and to a hungry pig, protein in any form hits the spot, irrespective of it being fowl, cat, rat, dead animals and humans.
It is interesting on another posting that dead piglets are fed to the pigs. Now that to me, is shocking, horrendous and against all rules currently in force :o :o :o :o and more worthy of criticism :wave: :wave:
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Take for instance, you hear somebody on the radio, you build a mental picture of the person, then you see a photo of that person and you are way of the mark.
;D ;D like when u speak to a guy on the phone and he can sound really nice, then when u see him in real life u think what an ugly bugger!! ;D ;D
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The big question," were has the original poster went"??
I suspect he has gone somewhere where he is treated with respect, and not judged on the basis of a one paragraph summary which was not designed for forensic examination and no doubt excluded lots of stuff, and does not wish to enter into a long justification of his actions.
I presume Lillian/Robert that you intend to continue to be rude to people on this forum (for instance lecturing them that they are not a responsible pig owner, and in another post to stop whingeing), and then wonder why people don't take to you. I am told that you are both very nice people face to face - I do wonder why you feel the need to be quite so horrible on this site.
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L.W
I haven't seen the thread you refer to regardiing dead piglets being fed to pigs, can you tell me where it is please so i can have a look at it. Ta in advance. If i have seen it i certainly don't remember it [the grey matter aint what it used to be]
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L.W
I haven't seen the thread you refer to regardiing dead piglets being fed to pigs, can you tell me where it is please so i can have a look at it. Ta in advance.
i was looking for that too :wave:
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It's in the pig section, thread started by Leri "Feeding - troughs or rolls on the ground" page 2 I think.
HTH
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This is the statement Stevie G had written on page 2 of "feeding troughs or sow rolls on the ground"
I've feed afterbirth, died piglets, stillborns back to gilts as a means of building up gilt immunity, but that holds higher risks(so only practice it when necessary)
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infact here is Stevie G's full reply
Chewing the cud has nothing to do with them building up of immunity, but it helps the cow to digest its grass more effectively, so i don't see the connection and they don't spit it out on the ground. I understand the principle of feed back and have done it many times before to gilts, but if there is no disease present in the dung there is no guarantee that it will achieve anything. I've feed afterbirth, died piglets, stillborns back to gilts as a means of building up gilt immunity, but that holds higher risks(so only practice it when necessary), as it can make the situation worse instead of better in some cases, so good judgement(and good advice) is necessary. Its just that feedback is too miss rather than hit.
As to getting a resistance to wormer, just periodically use a dfferent one, then that won't happen. Applies to drugs as well.
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L.W
Gave my opinion on such poor practice on the relevant thread ,Thanks for the info above.
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Blimey!!
Sorry for starting a bit of a todo on here!
LW - I was feeling a bit scared of you and definitly feel a bit put off from asking stupid questions.
At the end of the day I have got 13 pigs here but haven't been keeping pigs long on the scale of things. I am still learning. If you do care about the welfare of all pigs (mine included) then it's better for me to feel happy to ask yes?
That's the way I see it anyway.
Shortly after this posting my sow Ruby wouldn't eat her supper when I went out to feed them. Showed no interest at all. Great I thought! Was after hours again - our vet is miles away - since we changed as our local one killed a lamb (different story altogether!) and in all other ways she was fine. Would get up have a fuss etc - I'm a nurse and have to go on my gut instinct a lot. And my gut instinct was not to call the vet. I went back inside ate myself sorted out my family then took her some milk and eggs - so she had something inside her. I took some nuts too - to keep fatty boar and her sister out the way. What did she do - got straight up and ate the nuts!! (Wouldn't I have felt silly bringing the vet all that way and wouldn't we have paid a fortune?!)
However, a guy I know that keeps pigs found his sow off her food yesterday morning too - by the afternoon she was dead. He has no idea why.
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keeps pigs found his sow off her food yesterday morning too - by the afternoon she was dead. He has no idea why.
We had a talk from our local Animal welfare vet last night. All fallen stock/sudden deaths have to be reported to the authorities before moving them. I didn't know that till last night. LW and RW were there, they are actually very nice people but passionate and perhaps a little outspoken ;) ;D
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I didn't know that either. Is this all stock or just pigs?
Better tell my fiance's mum and dad that too.
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All stock as far as I remember, maybe not chickens or ducks though. Rosemary is online just now maybe she'll see this and confirm?
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I think, and having read the bumpf on the defra website, that poultry is also included as fallen stock and should be disposed of by the knacker man.
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not if your in a remote island. we are still allowed to burry our fallen stock. not always easy with only a foot of soil before you hit stones.
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LERI don't be put of asking questions that is how you and others learn as doganjo has said about the sudden deaths not a lot of people (farmers included)are aware of this. there are rules and regulations to ad-hear to to safeguard the animals and have high welfare standards :wave:
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We had a talk from our local Animal welfare vet last night. All fallen stock/sudden deaths have to be reported to the authorities before moving them. I didn't know that till last night.
Diganjo,
Can you clarify that statement.
1. Was this scotland only?
2. "All fallen stock"? - whilst I am not infallible :), I don't know of any English regulation that requires the direct informing of Animal health of ALL fallen stock - there were some rules for cattle pre 2009, and some for goats that have also I believe ended, but no rules on pigs and a pig dying of a known cause (which would include stillborn and newbprn piglets) would just go under fallen stock, and not require any direct contact with Animal Health to my knowledge. If all UK farmers rang AH each time something dies, they would be unable to cope.
3. Whilst there are several notifiable diseases under the Animal Health Act 1981, the Specified Diseases (Notification and Slaughter) Order 1992 (as amended), and Specified Diseases (Notification) Order 1996, and you are required to notify AH (or a police constable) of any animal affected with one of these diseases. How did the Animal Health Vet classify sudden death, and did he/she say under what law it should be reported and to whom?
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;D ;D like when u speak to a guy on the phone and he can sound really nice, then when u see him in real life u think what an ugly bugger!! ;D ;D
Oi! I resemble that remark!
:)
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We had a talk from our local Animal welfare vet last night. All fallen stock/sudden deaths have to be reported to the authorities before moving them. I didn't know that till last night.
Diganjo,
Can you clarify that statement.
DOG as in dog, AN as in half of Anne, JO as in half of John = DOGANJO ;D ;D ;D
Sorry no idea how to answer all your responses - Mr Rui Couchinho, one of the Veterinary Officers from Perth Animal Health office gave us a talk about the role of Animal Health, legislation for livestock keepers and current issues in animal health, followed by questions from the floor. I assume it only relates to Scotland but I am sure he said that ALL sudden deaths have to be reported. Can LW or RW confirm please?
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every dead sheep. goodgrief they would never stop. we had one drown itself last week so we should have left it to the birds for a week or so. sorry could not do that.
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o well Annie since you have asked for my input here goes :wave: :wave:
1. Was this Scotland only?
it was explained that since we are part of the EU there are rules in place that are universally adhered to and enforced. EU wide notifiable disease being one part of this(of the top of my head without reference to goggle ,animal health the old record of movement book or others foot and mouth bluetounge swine fever anthrax and fowl pest)"All fallen stock"?
this is construed by my interpretation as if a perfectly normal and healthy animal, just up and die's, this should cause concern. your first port of call is your vet, if they are concerned, they will inform animal health who will then put the wheels in motion. now if an animal falls off a cliff, falls in a receptacle for water or gets gubbed by the postman the cause is blatantly obvious and needs no PM or alarm
now your number three has been answered but telling or informing the police WASTE OF TIME they cant deal with crime, imagine there reaction with a dead animal
now is this not on parrel with the thread on the dead sow on that subject i was criticised
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or gets gubbed by the postman
I have no idea what that is, but I'd be proper annoyed if the postie gubbed any of my livestock. Dirtyboy. ;D ;D
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Doganjo
Apologies for the typo ! However now that you have explained the derivation I should hopefully not get it wrong again. Am worried that the dog comes first then the lady and the bloke a poor third, but probably like our household it is very true :)
For England there are 8 notifiable diseases relevant for pigs (not sure if the talk you went to was just pigs or all animals)
Under the 1981 health act
African Swine Fever
Aujeszky's disease
Anthrax
Classical Swine Fever
Swine Vesicular Disease
Teschen Disease
Vesicular Stomatitis
and Brucellosis under the Specified Diseases Orders 1992 and 1996
Of these, the only potential for sudden death would be Anthrax, and the last case of this was in 2006 in 2 cows in Wales. It does occur in pigs, but is not common. Typically pigs go off food for 24 hours before, and frequently have hot swellings in the throat.
From a little look at the 2006 Scotland Animal Health Bill which references the 1981 UK wide act, I would expect Scotalnd to have much the same rules.
As Lillian says any sudden unexplained death without any other factors should cause you concern and you should consult your vet, and it is them who would typically inform AH if they dignosed or suspetcted a notifiable disease.
I would doubt a statement from an AH rep that either all fallen stock or those suffering sudden death HAVE to be reported without some supporting regulations or law.
Again as Lillian says informing a police constable would be pointless and confusing to them, but AH was not around when the 1981 Act was written. As the Act is still on the statute books, and this is what it says, you would be compliant by telling the local PC !
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Apologies for the typo ! However now that you have explained the derivation I should hopefully not get it wrong again. Am worried that the dog comes first then the lady and the bloke a poor third, but probably like our household it is very true
;D ;D ;D
Sounded and types better than jodogan, or joandog, dogjoan, or anjodog ;) and the bloke bit isn't on this earth to complain now anyway ;) ;D ;D