The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Padge on February 19, 2011, 08:33:29 am
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or pregnancy toxaemia :( despite our very best efforts we look like losing a really good ewe to this absolutely no idea why what we could have done to avoid it if at all or if the rest of the flock are likely to be at risk
Can anyone offer any help?
Absolutely gutted and seriously concerned :(((
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I read about this and was told about twin lamb disease by my local supplier, so I was sure to make sure i fed the right amounts for the steaming up period, needless to say its not easy to make sure that the ewes with twins and triplets(if you get them scanned, which I didnt) are fed more as with small numbers its not always easy to split them up, so what I did also was to get a vitimin and mineral drench..... so if once I brought them in I gave them all a shot, it gives them a boost if they are low in any vits and mins.
So far Ive had no problems yet in this area !! fingers crossed!!
andy
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You need to get some dextrose down her neck as soon as possible. Anything which will give her an energy boost. 'Lectade' was always the thing to have around, pre-lambing, but Lucosade or Irn Bru would probably help her out. A straight glucose solution @ 2oz to half pint of warm water will help. For a rapid response, intravenous injection of solution is recommended.
Preg Tox in ewes is due to a number of metabolic disorders which can be triggered by a period of bad weather, shortage of appropriate feed, lack of water in hard weather. Ewes which are too fat early in their pregnancy are particularly susceptible to PT.
The normal metabolic routine is disrupted and a rapid build-up of toxins in the ewe's system is the result. Affected ewes become unresponsive to stimuli, seemingly oblivious to the presence of the shepherd, and unable to get around; they seem to be visually impaired, with widely-dilated pupils and, if got to their feet, they may stagger around with a high-stepping gait, and just want to lie down.
Acetonaemia may be one of the complications, and the characteristic 'pear-drop' scented breath and urine will confirm this.
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we had a case 2 years ago, she's and older mother and the vet also advised to dose with glucose, I think we caught her early, and she went to have 2 more lots of lambs and is as spritley as ever, fingers crossed for you both
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Treatment is very difficult,you can up the energy intake of the other ewes quickly by useing something like crystlix or a glucose bucket
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Thank you.....
Sadly despite lots of effort we've lost her :'(
This is our 4th year lambing and never experienced it before they've had good sweet hay mineral licks etc just started supplements before lambing end march early april
Can't do right for doing wrong :(((
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sorry to hear this news, an old french farming friend told us not to take on sheep as they have a death wish ! but we have been lucky and only suffered one newborn lamb die in 6 years.
I'm sure you have given the very best care and did all you could for this ewe, but things still go wrong, dont beat yourself up about it and keep giving the care and attention to the others and look forward to new arrivals end March.
We all look forward to some lovely pics of your newborn lambs
take care
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Really sorry for your loss. :(
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Ah, shame - you did all you could. :bouquet:
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Hi Padge. So sorry you have lost a good ewe. It does happen sometimes in spite of our best efforts, but very sad. Now you need to have a good look at the rest of your flock to see what might have been the cause. Usually it happens in an older ewe whose teeth are starting to go - remember, sheep have back molars as well as the teeth at the front and these are difficult to check but occasionally fall out. Make sure they have a mineral block, as well as some coarse sheep mix and their hay. If you still have more lambing to go, buy in some Calciject and inject any ewes showing the first signs of being 'hangdog' or becoming unresponsive. You won't cause any problems if you dose in error, but you can save a life + lambs if you act quickly. Any which show a miraculous recovery within 20-30 mins have had Hypocalcaemia and will need extra feed throughout the rest of their pregnancy and milking.
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I think we are going to lose a ewe to it as well :'(despite her having been fed through the winter with sheep feed and good hay, and having good teeth, and despite vet saying we caught her fairly early a week ago and giving all the calciject and other treatments. She had seemed to be improving but today has stopped eating her hay. Am still syringing down liquid feed but think I will probably lose this battle as Im not convinced she is interested any more.
All the rest of the sheep seem to be thriving from feeling their condition when we Heptavacd them last weekend, just hope that really is the case. Theres only three other older ewes, all the rest are first timers, which brings its own challenges, just those are a few weeks off....
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I wish you all the best llm we have 2 others showing signs currently and are hoping we have caught them in time we can only hope :'( :'(
they all looked fit and healthy really good condition caught out there
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Sorry you think shes going if shes been down for a week and sick the lambs may be dead/dying.The causes can be many small things age teeth number of lambs weather diet minerals handling treatments etc. look at energy in the form of molases liquid or blocks/buckets
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according to our vet she will almost certainly abort the lambs following which you have a 50% chance of the ewe surviving tho a much more experienced friend of ours insists that the odds are against you at the first signs which is really gutting
You can only do your best and have your animals best interests at heart
sadly sometimes you get beaten :'( :sheep: :sheep:
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Dont give up PADGE if youve caught these two at the first signs you may pull them round
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thanks Shep :) you don't keep them to give up it's a bit like rearing kids really just when you think you've got it taped something else bites ur ankles be a tough few weeks methinks :-\
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If i can help with answers to any questions dont hesitate just ask
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If the ewes abort the lambs there is a much better chance that they will survive as there is less of a drain their system.
True twin lamb is very difficult to treat - once they get ketosis you will be doing well to save 1 in 10. Ketones are toxic and also it will kill off all the gut flora which is essential to digestion.
Do remember that it is most commonly found in ewes that are too fat, so if you have been feeding them well all through the winter, that might be the cause. Ewes should be fir, not fat at lambing. Mountain breeds should have a condition score of 2, hill breeds condition score 2.5 and lowland breed CS 3. If they are fatter than this, they are too fat and so at risk from twin lamb disease.
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No, only a tiny weeny bit of food (about half a standard mineral lick tub between 16 of them a day! a scant half a handful, just to keep them tame not to feed them up) and regularly conditioned scored, vet said they were perfect condition for Shetlands lambing and this was just very unlucky.
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<< VSS says: Do remember that it is most commonly found in ewes that are too fat...>>
Now I am totally confused. I have never been able to tell Twin Lamb Disease from hypocalcaemia, but I understand TLD is caused by POOR nutrition. In fact Winters and Charnley in 'The Sheep Keeper's Veterinary Handbook' give the following as the most common causes of TLD:
#ewes carrying large numbers of lambs
#Shy feeders that won't eat supplementary feed
#Young sheep which are bullied by older sheep
#Lame ewes which can't get to trough as quickly as others
#Ewes which are already in poor condition.
They also say of Hypocalcaemia: 'This can be very difficult to distinguish from TLD except by blood testing....'
I am wondering if the recent early hard weather has affected these ewes adversely.
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very hard i have 200 i always scanned i no then which needs help .this can happen i have 20 at this time lambing starts for me 16 April i think that lamb numbers will be dawn due to the bad December. but remember no matter haw good this can happen to eney one .i bought a ram in september for a £1000 lots off lambs just coming to the end off lambing found him dead made me very upset .all the best with you're loss
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<< VSS says: Do remember that it is most commonly found in ewes that are too fat...>>
Now I am totally confused.
As ewes get heavier in lamb the lambs inside them ask more of their mothers. The lambs are growing and require more sustenance from their mothers, the ewes then use more of their built up reserves and this is when the problem may arise.
The reserves that the ewe has built up in her body are stored as fat or take the form of sugar and glycogen throughout the liver and muscles of the body. If she uses up the sugar reserves this will cause her blood sugar levels to drop, she will then call upon her fat reserves in an attempt to raise the blood sugar levels, unfortunately as the fats are broken down by the liver ketones are formed. Excessive ketones end up poisoning the system eventually producing an effect similar to alcohol abuse in humans.
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thats really useful VSS, thankyou!!
our ewe is hanging on in there, brought her inside the steading as she was shivering outside. Still has the fetching dog coat on and is being fed sheep milk replacer by syringe 3 times a day, on which she is quite bright, just cant get her to eat hard feed, tho I think she might be getting more interested in hay again, which would be good. Just trying to keep her going long enough to get rid of that lamb, one way or another! I assume theres no abortion pill for sheep! The old ewe I know is worth less but the lambs unlikely to make it anyway and Im fond of her.
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we were offered something to abort the lambs from the vet sadly instinct said the ewe was too far gone to suvive so we didn't take that option
best of luck LLm
Gary sad you have lost your tup as you say sometimes you cannot do right for doing wrong
Thank you Vss
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Really sorry to hear about this. We use Calciject, which is magic! (it has calcium AND glucose in) and then drench with one of the 'twin lamb' drenches at the feedstore - mainly glucose and minerals I think. Have managed to turnaround all our ewes so far, but lost a goat last year :-\
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The vet did Calciject and glucose and Keta something but poor ewe just wont eat, tho still bright and alert and struggles and walks off if you go to catch her, which gives me hope.
Update is vet things the TLD/ketosis has destroyed all her rumen functioning bugs, so has given me rumen contents he has taken from another sheep and she has been drenched with that, in the hope it will kick her rumen into action again. It's her main chance, and we're only trying it as she is so bright other than the inability to eat.
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out of interest how did he take rumen contents from another sheep?
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Fingers crossed :-*
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Would some live yogurt maybe help her with her rumen bugs?
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The yoghurt wouldn't do any harm.
The other thing that works as well as anything else is a mixture of black treacle, egg and milk. Mix it up and give it like a big dose. It provides energy, but also gives the rumen something to start working on if she still won't eat. If you can get the gut flora up and running again she may pull through.
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I now have a ewe with it. It seems a bit more common this year even though I have been given extra food as the winter has been hard the sheep fell out of condition and now she has gone wobbly on her legs and she is really big with lambs hopefully she will lamb this week we are giving her everything and just praying she goes into labour. The treacle eggs and milk always seems to give her a boost
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oh fingers crossed over here too, the joy and the heartbreak animals can give :( your doing the best you can so take heart X
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after her treatment our ewe will now eat grass (altho still not sheep nuts) and so we are still giving her lamb milk replacer in the evening to give her some protein/fats etc. She has slipped one of the lambs so we are hoping this will help her recover. Just would like her to start eating hard feed again.
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Nice grass will be far better for her than nuts its what the stomach is designed for if you have any ivy try her with it
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Does your feedstore stock flake? Ours will sometimes eat that - loads of molasses I think! - when they won't eat plain nuts. I think you're right to try to get some hard feed into her - yes spring grass would be nice but it's months away here yet at least.
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We have in the past used a kind of porage given orally by giant syringe. Made up by cooking coarse mix - or pencils would be smoother- in water with added glucose and a bit of salt or some digestive biscuits, into a thick but slightly runny mixture. The syringe is a catheter tipped 50ml one, the kind used with a tube for lambs, so it has a large outlet. I syringe this down a few mls at a time, a few times a day, as many syringes full as she will take. It gets the rumen going again - could add some yoghurt for that - but bypasses the need for her to have an appetite. Tempting greens are good too, especially willow tips if you have any. Digestives on their own can be tempting too, as they have crunch, plus sugar, salt and a bit of fibre - you might have to push small pieces into her mouth the first few times, but once they are getting better they love them.
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I have what might be a silly question ... I have got some Calciject I know how much to give but need to know if this is a one off injection or is it to be repeated if she doesn't pick up?
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Well, it's a four-off injection really as you give it in four places :D. We have never had to give more than one dose - as soon as the ewe is up we start on the porage stuff and ours have improved, although sometimes they might die later, a few months after lambing. On the other hand we have a 16 yo 4 horned Heb ewe who collapsed after her last lambing 3 years ago, when she unfortunately had twins, but had started losing her teeth. After Calciject and the porage and lots of extra feeding she reared the twins (one was always minute and eventually went as a companion to a goat and was called Dwarf but is still on the go too). She is now positively fat, having been kept as an unbred pet purely for her fleece and old times sake - looks like she'll go on for a few more years yet unless she finds herself a tup.
Whenever we have had twin lamb disease it's been with older ewes who have started losing their teeth. We always check before we put them with the tup, but winter feeding can be hard on the teeth so they can start to lose them once they are already in lamb. Once all the front teeth have finally fallen out they can manage much better than when they had wobbly stumps.
Good luck with your ewe - try her with the digestive biscuits too
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Ours love oatcakes - so if they don't like digestives, try them. Not as sweet mind.
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I have gave her it in 5 places as it said 50ml and I only had a 10ml syringe, she is still eating fine and has had twin lamb drench. She is walking slow and wobbly but is alert and loving the cuddles. She now has a lot of milk in and I am praying she lambs soon to take the pressure off. I checked her teeth and couldn't find and missing but she is not happy when you go in her mouth so it is a very quick check. She is loosing a lot of weight now just wish the devil lambs would come out so we can get her back to her cheeky self.
I think she is going into retirement after this is over
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Our ewe has rejected the digestive biscuits; she seems to think that I will hand feed her dock leaves all day, which she seems to love. Trouble is, she's probably right.... ;D
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It's much more important to get her to eat roughage than hard food. It is vital to get her rumen functioning again - hence the rumen contents from the vet.
As already mentioned, ivy is excellent for encouraging a ruminant to eat. I've often found they'll eat a few leaves of that and then start on their hay again. If she still won't eat hay then try her on any roughage - whatever you feed the horses on, sugar beet pulp, anything so long as it's high in fibre.
Several people have recommended high energy buckets. These are excellent as the sheep can get as much energy as she needs from them without having to fight for it. There is now one actually called a twin lamb bucket and I've never had any metabolic problems since using it.
Anyway - good luck with your ewe and keep feeding the dock leaves if that's what she wants!
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I have a ewe who had triplets on monday - it was her first lambing. She seemed fine for nearly 24 hrs and we stomach tubed collostrum into the lambs to make sure they had the best chance. However, she has gone down hill rapidly - severe diarrhoea, she's not interested in eating anymore, she can just about get to her feet but hasn't got the energy to stay up. She is showing all the signs of ketosis, except she has already lambed - does anyone know if this is still possible? I have given her some twin lamb drench anyway.
She has already killed one of the triplets by lying on it.
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according to our vet she will almost certainly abort the lambs following which you have a 50% chance of the ewe surviving tho a much more experienced friend of ours insists that the odds are against you at the first signs which is really gutting
They certainly are more likely to make it if the abort the lambs - but I would suggest that for "true" twin lamb, the survival rate is possibly as low as 1 in 10.
We had a major problem with this in a flock we were shepherding about 18 years ago. In the autumn, just before tupping, the flock size had been reduced from 450 to 350. This meant that there was loads more grass than normal so a much higher proportion of twins than normal were conceived. Then the winter weather was really awful, rained every day from Christmas until the 3rd March, and as a mountain flock run on a low input system, they were not given any supplementary feeding. Coupled with the fact that we were unaware of the high number of twins (pre scanning days)we had ewes dropping like flies from Twin Lamb from about 2 week before lambing. We lost almost 40 ewes. More than 10% of the flock. It was totally demoralising - no-one's fault, just caused by a set of cirumstances that we couldn't really forsee.
The ones that aborted their lambs were the ones who survived.
Thankfully now that we have a better system and we scan, we rarely have a case. I think we have had perhaps one with a touch of toxaemia in the last five years - and we lamb about 180 ewes each spring.
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Tam have you injected calciject - giving this is very urgent in your ewes condition - this has magnesium as well as calcium, have you spoken to your vet?
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we had an older thin ewe go very weak and wobbly and at one point not be able to get to her feet, this was about 3 or 4 weeks before she lambed - having been scanned as barren we put it down to her aging, arthritits etc and brought her up to give her extra feeds. I thought she should be put down, however we kept her going with small feeds and molasses she then started to just about be able to get up again, but still looking very weak and wobbly, however she could then go out for some grass in the day, after a few days of picking up she started to lamb (!) producing 2 lambs, one very lively smaller one and the other a biggish lamb with a spine deformity which had to be put down. Could hardly believe this, obviously very little udder showing. She seem okish after lambing although quite weak she was eating plenty of energy feed but then got very weak after a couple of days and stopped eating and being able to get up. She didn't show a great response to calciject but included magnesium sulphate in her drench, as well as malt extract, liquid vitamins, glucose, honey and garlic mix and she has made an amazing recovery from looking virtually dead on Sunday to getting up and running away when she sees me with the drench by Monday night - now tucking into her food again. We bought her some grass pellets which seemed to help tempt her to eat when her apertite was depressed, also soaked sugarbeet is quite a good feed if they are used to eating it. She hardly looks wobbly at all now but I am going to keep giving her an energy drench every day for a little while yet. We have kept her lamb with her and she is managing to feed him, would definately not have kept 2 on her, so hopefully we can continue to keep him with her now.
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No we havn't injected Calciject - she has been having twin lamb drench every 4 hours, last night we put 2 bottles of water down her throat, gave her a double shot of twin lamb and penicillin injection - this morning she got up and went to the water trough by herself and drank. She's still very poor, but we may be getting somewhere. I will look into Calciject now - thank you.
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Bought some Calciject, but spoke to someone first before injecting it - if a ewe has magnesium deficiency she will be frothy around the mouth and thrashing her legs about - injecting calciject when they don't need it can kill them.
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Did a reply Tam and then had internet connection problems so its gone!
Yes you have to be careful you don't overdo magnesium if you inject, your ewe's case could be complicated by milk fever too though and hence the calciject which covers for calcium deficiency emergency situation as well as providing some magnesium (grass staggers) trouble is both can be linked with twin lamb disease ie if they are not eating they can soon have a deficiency situation where they are producing lots of milk or a deficiency of either mineral can trigger twin lamb - as said I would speak to your vet about symptoms and any further appropriate treatment. Its good that your ewe is showing some recovery - this in itself suggests maybe not milk fever as she would rapidly deteriate without treatment, I just really wanted to highlight in a similar situation what we would do ie a ewe go down soon after lambing with multiple lambs we probably wouldn't waste anytime with calciject as you don't get long to do this if the deficiency is the cause of the problem so wanted to let you know this, also we would give supportive energy/vitamin support drenches as you are doing.
Hoping your ewe makes a good recovery now she sounds as though she is picking up
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Am really glad I found this forum - (I'm not very good when it comes to computers) - everyone's advise and experiences are really useful to know. Thanks to all, esp Blacksheep. Ewe is no better but no worse, I think the next couple of days will be the decider. The two triplets that are left are doing well on the bottle now - they do still have a drink from mum a couple of times a day, but it's hard to know how much milk they are getting from her - she tries to stand long enough to feed them.
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ah, bless the ewe for still trying to feed her remaining triplets, mothers instinct to look after her young, even thou she's having a difficult time herself.
Do hope she pulls through, she seems a good mother, good luck to you all :hshoe:
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Bought some Calciject, but spoke to someone first before injecting it - if a ewe has magnesium deficiency she will be frothy around the mouth and thrashing her legs about - injecting calciject when they don't need it can kill them.
Last year our vets produced a really useful one-sheet guide to Staggers in Ewes. I haven't asked them but I'm sure they won't mind my reproducing it here.
Before Lambing
is usually due to a lack of calcium caused by taking in too much magnesium
Administer 50ml No 6 (blue top) below skin
If not up in 2 hours, administer 50 ml No 2 (green top) below skin
If further treatments are required, use No 2 (green top)
Any ewe which goes down before lambing can develop Twin Lamb Disease. These ewes need a twin lamb drench as a precaution and watched closely in case they develop signs. If signs appear, drench aggressively and give vitamin injections.
After Lambing
is usually a true lack of magnesium
Administer 50ml No 6 (blue top)
This can be repeated up to 4 times.
Note that all injections must be warmed to body temperature before being given.
(The numbers and bottle top colours refer to the Dunlops bottles.)
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Just as an update - a second ewe went the same way as the first, but both have now made significant progress towards getting better - put their lambs back with them this morning - the second ewe has taken hers back fine, but the first with the two remaining triplets has been pushing hers away. I'm not sure she's going to accept them now. That's the good news, bad news is we lost a ewe and her lamb yesterday - she had ring womb and we had to call for help and when the lamb eventually came out, the ewe prolapsed badly. Four more to go and we can look forward to a nights sleep again. :(
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we've had bad years of that - we used glucose drenches from CWG's but more often than not, lost the ewe. This year they have been feed fodder beet as well as ordinary feed, haylege, mineral licks etc. So far, not one displaying any signs ... might have helped the situation
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They have had mineral licks for the last few months including a special one for the ewe and unborn lamb and are fed extra course ration and hay through cold spells - the first ewe is going downhill again. The vet said we were doing everything right with the energy drinks and rehydration. I think the ewe is determined to achieve the sheeps one lifetime ambition - I am determined she won't!
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My final post on this topic(!) - both sick ewes seem absolutely fine now, taken back their lambs and looking after them well. All above are out at grass in glorious sunshine. Phew!
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we have a oldish ewe 7 in special care with what we think is either twin lamb desise or hyercalcimeia treated with an antibiotic and 50 ml of calcijet and drenching her with 50ml of ketoaid. She seems a little better. pushing high suger feeds and watching her carefully. Are we missing anything.
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A vitamin shot wouldn't hurt - Combivit or similar. You can even give one daily until she rallies if you want.
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We used a calf rehydration mix (bright orange drink) - this stopped any scouring and seemed to give the ewes a new lease of life.
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Bought some Calciject, but spoke to someone first before injecting it - if a ewe has magnesium deficiency she will be frothy around the mouth and thrashing her legs about - injecting calciject when they don't need it can kill them.
Last year our vets produced a really useful one-sheet guide to Staggers in Ewes. I haven't asked them but I'm sure they won't mind my reproducing it here.
Before Lambing
is usually due to a lack of calcium caused by taking in too much magnesium
Administer 50ml No 6 (blue top) below skin
If not up in 2 hours, administer 50 ml No 2 (green top) below skin
If further treatments are required, use No 2 (green top)
Any ewe which goes down before lambing can develop Twin Lamb Disease. These ewes need a twin lamb drench as a precaution and watched closely in case they develop signs. If signs appear, drench aggressively and give vitamin injections.
After Lambing
is usually a true lack of magnesium
Administer 50ml No 6 (blue top)
This can be repeated up to 4 times.
Note that all injections must be warmed to body temperature before being given.
(The numbers and bottle top colours refer to the Dunlops bottles.)
:bookmark: hypocalcaemia etc, calciject / Dunlops
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Thanks Sally a very useful bit of info which needs more prominence ...... think I'll start a new 'lambing' thread