The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: pikilily on November 16, 2010, 07:13:52 pm

Title: Nose rings
Post by: pikilily on November 16, 2010, 07:13:52 pm
i noticed that Adam -countryfile- has rings on his pig's noses. MMmmmm!! yes lovely pasture, not all dug up.
BUT - i dont know how i feel about this.
what do the rest of you think- pros and cons
Emma T
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Jackie on November 16, 2010, 07:37:39 pm
I think its cruel.
Pigs naturally dig up the soil and root around and eat the plants and so to deprive them of this natural behaviour is cruel. :(
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: supplies for smallholders on November 16, 2010, 07:56:16 pm
Done by a lot of the commercial units - and some smallholders.

It is oficially classed as mutilation, as it does prevent the natural behaviour of the pig and should only be done if there are solid reasons to do it.

I'm sure I will get some flack for saying this though!

At least you didnt ask about teeth clipping and tail docking......

Thanks
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: HappyHippy on November 16, 2010, 08:50:15 pm
I couldn't do it  :(
As SFS said, it's depriving them of their natural behaviour.
Yes, I'm sure it makes for lovely green paddocks BUT how happy are the pigs ?
I raise my own meat as I want happy, healthy, outdoor pigs - putting a ring in their nose is almost as bad as keeping them on cement floors, it's not natural for them.
BUT having said all that, I've got Kune Kunes and although the piglets root a bit, the adults don't and my fields are fine so no worries there, time will tell with my 2 Berkshire girls  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: langdon on November 16, 2010, 08:57:58 pm
why dont you send him ( adam ) an email???
if you think in anyway its cruel on his part, its no good asking others is it!
challenge him on his reason and find out why he has done it.
everyone does things different dont they?
langdon :pig:
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Hilarysmum on November 17, 2010, 09:29:51 am

Pigs nose ringed = children at a playground having to sit on the bench all day just watching and wishing!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: pikilily on November 17, 2010, 10:30:50 am
thanks for the suggestion langdon, i will now! 

I just wanted to check the pros and cons with others who are more knowledgable than me.

So often judgments are made based on ignorance, and once there is greater understanding the 'judgments' are nullified. 

For example, there are, perhaps, people here who would judge me cruel for carrying a whip when i ride my horse. Yet if they were to examine the reasons why and how the appropriate ( and usually gentle)  use of the whip, or crop, is preferable to lots of strong legs aids and kicking! My horse is not affraid of the whip, she is not hurt by the whip, I use it more as a light flick, just slightly more than a tickle!! Yet judgments are made... ???

Please dont shoot people down in flames for asking a question, or seeking other peoples opinions. Otherwise there would be no free sharing of experiences, and skills...this forum would be pointless. I am sorry if my query offended or irritated!

Emma T



Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: HappyHippy on November 17, 2010, 03:47:48 pm
Hi Emma,
Your post didn't offend or upset me - I hope my reply didn't make it sound like it did (that's the problem with t'internet - no tone ;))
Judgements ARE quickly made, and when someone doesn't know anything about whatever subject they're judging on, it's easy to get it wrong (that's not a dig at you or anything - just a general observation)
Ringing noses is an OLD practice, done in the days before animal welfare was such a priority (or we didn't know any better) and I can see why (in large scale production) there would be a reasonable arguement for it BUT I don't agree with it. Just MY opinion, but like you it's always good to hear other's points of view.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 17, 2010, 03:54:36 pm
Quote
I am sorry if my query offended or irritated

No, Emma, you were exactly right in asking others what they think! And your whole argument is spot on!

I saw those nose rings too, hadn't seen them before - wouldn't that make the shocks of the electric fence worse?
HM's analogy is right - I'd never ring mine either. I have a fab photograph of one of my piggies when his face completely disappeared in the mud, his ears are the only thing level with the ground! When it's wet they blow bubbles whilst rooting in a puddle!  ;D
 
Didn't know about the horse wip reason, btw, thanks for explaining (I was one of those wondering why they were used  ::)).


Eve  :wave:
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: pikilily on November 17, 2010, 04:43:24 pm
Hi All,
i have emailed Adam, via the countryfile website, to ask for his rationale for the nose-rings. .....LOL, hope i wont offend him with my questions. I will let you know what his reply contains.

Eve - that, in one short explaination, is a summary of the use of the whip :-\. It is often carried, but seldom used.

I also use a lunge whip for lunging the horses. It sort of looks like a ringmasters whip from a circus, six foot long with a seven or eight foot tail... BUT i have NEVER, in all the 40 odd years of owning horses, even touched a horse with one. They are used to encourage the horse to move forwards by snapping and popping behind the horse. The problem with whips is that they are most 'visable' to the public when watching horse racing....then it looks as if the jockey is thrashing the horse, which they are not actually doing! if they did they would be very very heavily fined...but the public perception sticks, and and that mud sticks to all horseriders!!! :(

some people concider the use of electric fencing to be cruel and restrictive......or a muzzle on a dog.....or castration....the list goes on!

Anyway back to the pigs, i didnt know whether i objected or not....I was undecided...hence the Q's.
cheers Emma T
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on November 17, 2010, 05:12:40 pm
It will be interesting to see Adam's reply.On the subject of whipping or used as an encouragement. In pig showing with white pigs and lighter coloured pigs with constant tapping on their right shoulder you can visible see bruising if the classes drag on for ages with no objections from fellow competitors or members of the public our only experience of ringed pigs were kune kunes which we no longer have electric fences are essential at keeping stock separate it is better a quick jolt rather than hung up on a six wire fence and possible having to destroy your stock.     
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: oaklandspigs on November 17, 2010, 05:20:21 pm
I do not favour nose ringing, I think pigs should be allowed to root.

I did buy a sow (Dorris!) from a place where they ring because they are on SSSI land and it is part of their arrangements.  She was over 2 months in pig, so I continued with the ring until after weaning, and then removed it. It came out very easily with bolt croppers when she was asleep, but I didn't want to risk bolt croppers when she was pregnant or with young.

When she did have the ring, she seemed quite content, and did "nose" around loose earth, but not dig.  She now digs like a good-un !



Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: waterhouse on November 17, 2010, 05:25:59 pm
One gets on tricky ground when trying to make things "natural".  What is natural in stabling a horse, but my guys queue up at the gate wanting to come in.  I suspect the woolly sheep is an consequence of selective breeding given that pretty much everything similar moults.

All farming is exploitative either of the soil or of animals but I think we have all gone too far to reverse out of it!  The humane alternatives aren't always better - having seen my Jack Russell in action with vermin I think his approach is considerably more humane than poisoning.

I don't approve of docking a gun dog's tails but then I don't shoot and I know there's another side to the argument.  Where it definitely goes wrong is docking an animal destined to be a household pet to meet a breed standard.

I think one has to have one's own moral standards, one of which has to be that other people think differently.

Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 17, 2010, 09:09:58 pm
You're right, especially on the breed standards thing, it's just that rooting is what a pig likes best after eating ;) It's just so big a part of them, their little tails waggle when they have their heads deep in mud  :pig:

And I'd love to borrow your Jack Russel to deal with some human vermin we have here, he's very welcome to deal with one of our neighbours! ;D ;D (She's only little, that neighbour, he'll find it an easy match!  ;D)

I'm looking forward to hearing what the reply to Pikilily's email will be, maybe the pigs were only temporarily on a different field - he's usually good, Adam, you saw the concern on his face when looking at that pig getting sunburnt in those horrible cages in the US a few weeks ago.





Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: langdon on November 17, 2010, 09:25:32 pm
 HERE HERE
we all ove sitting down to watch countryfile esp Adam as he so concerned with the wellbeing of livestock.
and as you said the way those pigs were kept ( kids were shocked ) i dont think nose rings for good reasons are the worst when it
comes to animal welfare.
cant wait to read reply of that email :D
langdon :pig:






Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 17, 2010, 09:33:26 pm
Oaklandspigs, what is SSSI land?

Thanks,


Eve  :wave:
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: waterhouse on November 17, 2010, 10:57:20 pm
http://www.sssi.naturalengland.org.uk/Special/sssi/index.cfm
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Hilarysmum on November 18, 2010, 08:10:48 am
Hi I am sorry if my reply came across as a criticism of your question.  I admit I do have a horror of nose rings and farrowing crates.  I dont see the justification for either.  But its all relative.  Far better a nose ringed pig (although still abhorant in my eyes) than one confined in a tiny space. 

(If ever any of my postings offend please let me know - I have a terrible habit of putting things badly and often not meant in the way it comes out   -  its my age!!!)
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: oaklandspigs on November 18, 2010, 09:06:40 am
Eve,

The link Waterhouse posted says it all.  Basically its land that the Gov want to maintain.  Our sellers rent land with the boundary next to one, so no-one wanted run-off into the area, hence the ring.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: waterhouse on November 18, 2010, 10:16:15 am
There's over an acre of land next to us which we're offering to manage because it's not been used in 20 years (house with a paddock but no pony or kids).  It's just tall weeds - nettles, thistles, ragwort - so fattening some pigs seem to be the obvious way to plough it all up before re-seeding next year or the year after.  We don't have pigs so am I on the right track and would an electric fence keep them off the main road or would we need to use stock fencing?  And what about pigs and ragwort?
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: gavo on November 18, 2010, 11:31:12 am
Pigs are the ideal way to clear much of that ground; you will find odd patches they don't do so much damage to. As for ragwort i've never seen a pig go near it they just seem to know it's no good .I would be wary of having electric fencing as the only thing between them and a main road things do go wrong with leccy fencing although not too often; but squished pig is no good for the plate never mind all the other bother an escape would cause.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Sylvia on November 18, 2010, 02:35:14 pm
An easy job to pull the ragwort before you put pigs in. Take it outside of the land before composting or burning.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: oaklandspigs on November 18, 2010, 05:25:28 pm
Waterhouse,

Concur with Gavo, you will need a stock fence and electric fence to protect against the main road.  Whilst if trained to an electric fence (you must do this first), pigs will normally stay behind it, you would not want to be the one feeling terrible as you caused a death by someone crashing to avoid your hitting pig - not worth the risk!

So stock fencing on the road side.


Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Hilarysmum on November 18, 2010, 05:59:58 pm
Definitely have double fencing electric and stock fence near any road.  (Once had to rescue the village from Hilary)!!!  For clearing anything pigs are fantastic.  Although any trees under about 15 years of age dont stand much chance. 
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: waterhouse on November 18, 2010, 10:14:43 pm
Ouch thats 250m of stock fence.  I guess the electric fence is to protect the stock fence.  Oh well at least I have a pair of monkey strainers.

One of the reasons for taking the land is that it's upwind of all my other land so its vast stock of weeds is spreading seed all over mine.   I don't share the view that pulling the ragwort will be easy but at least its all dying back at the moment
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Hilarysmum on November 19, 2010, 10:33:43 am
My pigs have never touched ragwort, they do clear absolutely everything else even those really aggressive thistles (not scottish thistles the ones with huge leaves with multiple spears on the ends) bramble too.  They root them up eventually.  Our land doesnot bear any comparison to before pigs. 
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 19, 2010, 03:07:00 pm
After SSI land (thankyou for the explanations!) there's another word that's baffling me: monkey strainers. Uuuhhh, what's that?  ???

(I suppose it shows I had to grow up in the city! :D)

Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on November 19, 2010, 03:33:50 pm
a type of wire strainers
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 19, 2010, 05:10:51 pm
Thought so, but in the shape of a monkey?  :D
Think I'm straying a bit from the original subject of this posting, sorry about that Pikilily!  :)


Eve  :wave:
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: pikilily on November 19, 2010, 05:56:40 pm
No prob, I love it when we get collective mind drift.... makes me feel less alone!  :-[
Emma T
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: waterhouse on November 19, 2010, 07:13:16 pm
Straining 50m of stock fence is tricky without http://shop.btcv.org.uk/shop/level3/3/stock/69 or similar.  The strainer "walks" along a chain...

You then take the chain apart and use the resultant rings in the noses of your pigs.  There, back on subject.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 19, 2010, 08:48:10 pm
Thanks!  :wave:
Title: Re: Nose rings- Countryfile responce!
Post by: pikilily on November 22, 2010, 11:57:43 am
This is what i wrote-

as someone who has kept pigs for only 6mnths, and is therefore still very much the novice, i would like to ask Adam Henson the rationale for the rings in his pigs noses. Is this something he reccomends, or does normally...or was there a particular reason for the rings in his field pigs in last weeks show?
Thank you
Emma Thompson


and the reply-

Dear Miss Thompson,
Thank you for your enquiry to Countryfile, as the director of the Adams Farm Pig item I have been asked to reply. Generally, Adam puts rings in his pigs noses to dissuade them from rooting up his best pasture with their snouts .

I have seen them tear up thickly matted grass roots using  their powerful neck muscles, some of his pigs have virtually destroyed the field by rooting for worms and insects.

Adam would prefer not to ring their snouts and he only does it to the worst 'culprits' and even then it doesn't always work.
I hope this helps,
Best wishes


Well he has expressed that he doesnt like doing this.

Interestingly when reseaching to find contact details etc. i did find out that the farm is a visitor centre with tens of thousands of visitors, also that the family have a history of being in the media and on TV as presenters.

My take would then be, that there may be a worse public perception of pigs milling about in just mud rather than the nose rings. As well as for the protection of the grass.... Just my take!!
Emma T
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Sylvia on November 22, 2010, 12:19:39 pm
Is there not a take-outable and put-inable ring for pigs? (like human ear-rings) Then you could put your pigs on your grassland with no worries and take it out to plough up a bit of land for your spuds etc.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: HappyHippy on November 22, 2010, 12:46:50 pm
Much as I dislike rings in noses (and agree with your 'take' Emma) IF it means that by ringing it's encouraging/allowing Adam to keep outdoor, rare breeds, it's not ALL bad. Slightly better for them to be outside and alive with a ring in their nose than him to have a huge shed full of large whites and bypass the natives  ;)
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 22, 2010, 01:10:23 pm
Yes, I'm not sure about this either... if you want pretty pastures then don't have pigs, is my humble opinion...
and these pigs weren't in a visitor part of the farm (or we would have seen it, he does all sorts for visitors), so thereofore looks don't matter in that field... and there's nothing more informative for people than seeing a pig roll in mud and a nice sign explaining to the visitors why pigs do this and debunk that myth of dirty pigs...

I'm just hoping he does something really good for nature & animals to make up for the bad of the nose ringing...

Good thing you received a reply, though, and thanks for sharing it with us!


Eve  :wave:

Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Mrs pig on November 26, 2010, 04:53:50 pm
Nose ringing, tail clipping and teeth clipping/grinding and castration are all classed as mutilations and all with the exception of castration are practiced  widely in the commercial pig sector.  I personally have worked on outdoor pig farms where nose ringing is not performed and yes the sows can perform natural behaviour which is classed as being high on the welfare agenda, and yes it is painful to the pigs when done. However, a sow in a paddock that has rooted all ground cover, up to her belly in mud in the middle of winter is also a welfare issue.  If nose ringing is not performed I would suggest that a good rotational schedule of paddocks is in place to reduce excessive poaching and therefore creating poor welfare.

We also have to consider the environmental issues with nitrogen loading and leaching in NVZ areas made worse by no vegetation cover.  This is definitely a welfare v environmental argument...
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Mrs pig on November 26, 2010, 05:15:29 pm
Just a final thought on nose ringing ( which personally i do not like!) Pigs "naturally" do not live in open grassland - they are a woodland creature.  they would also root in large areas of undergrowth a fair distance from where they would have their den.  The point I make is that pigs love to root but we rarely give them enough or the correct environement to perform this behaviour without compromising their welfare in other areas.  Pigs like to wallow but they do not like to be kept in heavily poached ground in winter, if you truly want the best for your pig you need to ensure they have enough area to root but enough land so they can get away from the wet when they need to...

Pigs also enjoy grazing - if we allow poaching in winter there will not be any forage for grazing in summer, this means that these pigs are not fulfillling another natual behaviour .
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Eve on November 26, 2010, 05:30:52 pm
We weren't saying that pigs should always be in open fields regardless of the conditions or that vegetation doesn't matter...
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Tudful Tamworths on November 27, 2010, 12:21:59 am
I was really disappointed when I visited Adam's place, the Cotswold Farm Park, and saw his pigs were ringed. Even Kate Humble's beloved kunekune sows, which were there with their litters, had rings. So much for the claim that only the "worst offenders" get rings!

This wild boar x Tamworth (Iron Age) sow had rings and was clearly thoroughly bored, continually biting at a chain on the gate.

(http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/tudful/WBCHAINS.jpg) (http://i596.photobucket.com/albums/tt47/tudful/WBCHAINS2.jpg)

Denied normal behaviour, she was trying to find another outlet for her frustration. I spent 15 minutes watching her (I'm doing an animal behaviour degree) and felt really sorry for her - particularly as I used to have Iron Age and even though they trashed the ground, I loved seeing them rooting - displaying normal behaviour - which is one of the "Five Freedoms".

I wrote about it in my blog http://pigsinwales.blogspot.com/  (http://pigsinwales.blogspot.com/) but, with hindsight, I should have said something while I was at the park. I feel an email coming on.
I can understand Adam wanting to keep his visitor attraction presentable, but ringing does seem to go against the impression he gives on telly. Moreover, with the whole micro pig thing sweeping the nation, and people abandoning their pets as soon as they discover what true pig behaviour is (rooting up earth - or carpets or floorboards), surely Adam could help educate people as to the kind of damage pigs can do? If you aren't prepared to allow pigs this one basic expression of true behaviour, you shouldn't keep pigs.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: HappyHippy on November 27, 2010, 09:35:29 am
If you aren't prepared to allow pigs this one basic expression of true behaviour, you shouldn't keep pigs.
I agree with you 100% Liz
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: pikilily on November 27, 2010, 10:45:17 am
Hiya,

Tudful, I had been mulling over this over the last few days. I was going to write back to the programme producer suggesting some ideas along your lines. For example I do think that the programme romanticises aspects of farming and in particular the animal husbandry. I was going to suggest that they show a more realistic view, looking at the problems, the negatives, the day to day nitty gritty of keeping animals. The dirty stuff!!

hmmmm!!! maybe not such good pretty telly, but would make people stop and think about things before they rush off and buy half a dozen sheep for their back garden, or decide to keep pigs in their garage etc.

I just think everything is just too clean and pretty on the programme. They could discuss the aspect of keeping the animals in a way which is constructive, would dispel myths and would give people a good understanding of where their food really comes from and how it get to their dinner plate.

Emma T

Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Tudful Tamworths on November 28, 2010, 03:41:39 pm
Emma, I think you're absolutely right. Aside from the occasional downer when Adam's cattle are tested for TB, it's all a bit light and fluffy. I really think you should write to them.
Cotswold Farm Park was real eye-opener for me, having seen Adam's "real" farm featured so extensively on Countryfile. The visitor attraction really is a sanitised version of what a farm is really like. Handfuls of animals in their little groups in immaculate pens.
Okay, so maybe a place like this is the only glimpse of livestock that many people will get - so all the more reason to make it an educational visit rather than just entertainment. And the same should go for the programme.
Thanks for raising this subject, Emma.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on November 28, 2010, 05:49:07 pm
well thats two of us that were at adams farm or should i say three but being lillian she asked adam  about the rings his reply was honest enough his farm is rented and all the animals mix together he cant have the grass being ploughed it really is down to individual choice and preference it was not adam that replied to the email
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Muc on December 02, 2010, 11:49:45 am
Quote
If you aren't prepared to allow pigs this one basic expression of true behaviour, you shouldn't keep pigs.
Well said HH! It's cruel and unnecessary. If this guy Adam is so concerned about his grass, let him buy a lawnmower and stop pretending to be concerned about the animals. As more and more people are inclined towards the good life of keeping hens and pigs etc, let us here say clearly that cruelty is not acceptable.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: sausagesandcash on December 04, 2010, 01:14:31 pm
Lillian - the happy pig company.....were they not shut down???
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on December 04, 2010, 08:55:32 pm
when and where were they trading
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: sausagesandcash on December 06, 2010, 12:29:35 am
I dunno, thought that company had welfare issues last year...I could be wrong
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Hilarysmum on December 06, 2010, 09:12:52 am
Try googling it on River Cottage in the pig section, if its the one I am thinking of there was quite a bit of activity on the site concerning this a couple of years back.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on December 06, 2010, 09:33:35 am
THE BASTARDS STOLE MY TRADING NAME
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on December 06, 2010, 11:48:33 am
goggled the forkers, it appears every man and his dog has a stake in the happy pig company. The ones that was referred to the two computer geeks should never have been allowed near any animal and from what I can see they have been banned from animals in the future. I would like to point out that we have been trading from 2001 without any issues. When we started it was to get a quirky name. I had considered the Mary Ann Meat Company but if any film buffs are out there you will remember this from the film Prime Cut. Our nature dictated something different. I remember an American car magazine from over 40 years ago advertising printed t shirts 1 was fly united (2 geese mating on the wing) the other was 2 pigs mating hence the Makin Bacon and may I add it is incorporating the happy pig company well we know that they are happy that is until they go to slaughter. Will add the company logo when the kids come back from school. Every where we have travelled with the trailer it has created amusement and if we can brighten up  other people's day that is a bonus. Sorry for hijacking the site but it is something we feel very angry that arseholes can screw other people's ambitions and desires basically sausageand cash (Irish) think the happy pig company (south england) is trading in Scotland Please dont think i am getting at sausageandcash it is the very opposite we are delighted that this was brought to our attention.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Muc on December 06, 2010, 12:18:35 pm
I share your anger after I Googled and found this:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1247548/The-Unhappy-Pig-Company-How-hogs-bred-costly-organic-firm-died-squalid-conditions--survivors-resorted-cannibalism.html

It is very important that those of us, inspired by John Seymour, Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall and others, who are rearing some chickens and pigs etc, should not tolerate those who see the alternative lifestyle as a get-rich-quick venture at the expense of animal welfare.
We should make it our business to check out the holdings of those who set up stall in our farmers markets and ensure that all animals are treated humanely.
There was nothing alternative about the Happy Pig Company (not the Cavan one). Those pigs would have been better off in a factory farm.

I have long been of the opinion that we should have a home-pig association that would set standards and campaign against unwarranted regulation (I expect new taxes and restrictions to curtail us in favour of factory farmers).

If any other Irish-based posters want to help set up Muintir na Muice (the Pig People) I would be happy to put a bit of effort into it. Meanwhile, I'll be up to Cavan shortly for some of that bacon as my freezer has run dry.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: PhilBen on December 07, 2010, 04:39:24 am
I don't know all the facts about it but if it causes pain or stress then it shold not be done.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: sausagesandcash on December 07, 2010, 09:40:26 pm
I suppose nose rings are the piggie version of human shackles......need I say anymore!

P.S Muc - Muintir na Muice saor-raoin? Cad a ceapan tu?
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: robert waddell on December 08, 2010, 08:44:29 am
in  liz, s photos the pig is nuzzling the chain the nose ring just prevents them from digging( tender snout)
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: sausagesandcash on December 08, 2010, 10:08:03 am
I'm not talking 'bout the photo. In my humble opinion nose rings are akin to shackles.
Title: Re: Nose rings
Post by: Hilarysmum on December 08, 2010, 10:30:04 am
IMO - nose rings are like tetheringhorses or keeping dogs chained up all the time, not allowing the animal to live naturally.  I dont think the need to keep the ground in good condition is an acceptable reason for nose rings.  If you cant let them live naturally then dont keep them.