The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Identification => Topic started by: wildandwooly on March 12, 2021, 05:07:03 pm
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Anyone have any idea what this plant is? There is a patch of it on a steep slope of rough grassland down towards the beck at the bottom but a bit up from there. The area looks quite blackish muddy and it's quite wet and slimey there ::) I guess it might be easier once it's grown a bit.......
I'm worried in case it's something not nice for grazers :-[
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Can't download the photo as too big and I've tried various ways of doing it but it won't so I'll try later!
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Guessing butterbur?
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No trace of a picture coming through here.
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Morning
Think have finally managed to sort the photo! :fc:
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Not a great photo only half of it but the bit you can see is the top of it. They have runners that go underground like a mat and there is only one small area of it. It might be easier to identify once there are some shoots or whatever. I've looked up the '10 most noxious weeds' and pictures of their roots and from what I can find it's not any of those.....
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According to picturethis it's broomrape or orobanche - "Orobanche (broomrape or broom-rape) is a genus of over 200 species of parasitic herbaceous plants in the family Orobanchaceae, mostly native to the temperate Northern Hemisphere."
I'm none the wiser, are you? :innocent:
Another name is hellroot so maybe you need to get rid :excited:
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So, broomrape or butterburr? Both are parasitic, butterburr has lots of root-like strands like couch. Broomrape mostly only grows on its very specific host plant. Butterburr sounds non toxic as the leaves were used to wrap butter, and the flowers support early bees and insects.
I think you have to wait and see the flower and leaves before destroying what could be an interesting inhabitant of your ground, if not actually rare.
https://www.first-nature.com/flowers/petasites-hybridus.php (https://www.first-nature.com/flowers/petasites-hybridus.php)
http://www.bioref.lastdragon.org/Magnoliophytina/Orobanche.html (http://www.bioref.lastdragon.org/Magnoliophytina/Orobanche.html)
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Thanks both. I have enough pests already round here :roflanim:
I agree I'll wait and see what happens once it's grown a bit and hope it isn't anything nasty ::)
If it's something unusual/rare maybe I can diversify and get people to pay me to come and see it :roflanim:
Watch this space ;D
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I don't think it's that rare :roflanim:
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Completely new to me so no comment on what your specimen is: however, I did note while following Fleecewife's links and beyond that some potentially relevant plant species ARE endangered & therefore protected !! Will be interested to know what it turns out to be idc (when any specimens, still in the ground, have developed above ground).
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Yes quite. As I don't know I'm waiting until I can get a better idea of what it is :)
A fair bit of my land is SSSi so there are lots of wild flowers that need protection. It has been badly neglected for at least 8 years by the previous owner so I'm in the process of finding out what is still here from the last survey 8 years ago, what may have gone ( but hopefully will be re generated) and what shouldn't be there or needs some sorting out/managing i.e. through topping or basically me pulling it out! Prob a mix. I took photos of stuff last year but it was at the end of the flowering season unfortunately but I'm repeating that in May and again in June and July. I have a list of the flowers/plants they identified 8+ years ago but nothing like this current plant on it.
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That all sounds really exciting wildandwooly - what an adventure. We had very few wild flowers here when we arrived 25 years ago, just lumpy grass, so we decided to leave it to see what appeared by itself. The answer was still not much, although a few orchids have popped up recently. We planted a load more trees this winter and have a whole lot of wildflower plants, chosen to suit the area, still to get in around them before spring (which hasn't quite arrived here yet)
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Yes the grass here is a bit lumpy too :D I know there are orchids here but sadly I only got photos of them when they were finishing last year so not sure what sort. It'll certainly be exciting to see what grows this Spring. Spring not started here yet either. Snowdrops out but not the daffs at all but I am pretty high up! And North in Englandshire but not proper North as in Scotlandshire as my daughter would say :roflanim:
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I'm not actually that far from you @wildandwooly, just about an hour over the Border in soon-to-be The People's Republic of Scotland :innocent: ), and probably about the same elevation: 1000 feet. The main thing we suffer from is cold winds, so we have planted windbreak hedges all around, which have given us a slightly calmer micro-climate. We do get lots of snow, as will you, and the temps are at least 3 degrees lower than forecast for sea level. The area around us is mixed farming, with cattle, sheep and horses, plus chemical grown arable crops - too cold for commercial scale veggies. There is quite a lot of coniferous plantation too, increasing by the year. I imagine you are up on the high moors - lovely and open :D
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:innocent: :innocent: @Fleecewife. Lol
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:innocent: :innocent: @Fleecewife. Lol
:eyelashes: :stir: ;D
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Yes Fleecewife we are :)
Lucky to live in an ANOB but the weather is 'interesting' to say the least ;D
Did you plant hedging specifically to help as windbreaks and what did you use? We have a few roe deer here so that would present some managing issues planting wise! We also have a pond in the field which wild mallards visit and I'd like to plant some hedging round there as well - thinking maybe mix of hawthorn/blackthorn etc? I'm a bit of a gardener/veggie grower but have no idea on that score! Also planning to plant some hedging a bit from where the hen run is, as although that's in our 'field garden' lol it's rougher grass and we're quite exposed here, although the chickens which are a hardy lot have been doing really well. I'd just like to give them a bit more shelter. I know you have to be careful with non natural windbreaks as they can actually cause problems but I'm assuming some hedge planting which allows for the wind to blow through slightly would be better...? We're a kind of wildlife corridor here between the grouse moors and the lower Dale :)
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Yes a solid fence is not good against a strong wind as it causes an undertow, and can knock the fence flat. Something porous is much better. We protected our veg garden and polytunnel with 6' high green mesh, on deer stobs and giant strainers. It lasted over 20 years until the hedges grew enough to create their own microclimate.
Our hedges vary a bit as we didn't plant them all at the same time. We have used a mix of native hedging species including hawthorn 50% for the outside row, as hawthorn is tough and protects the inside row. The other 50% is made up of more hawthorn (about another 10%), holly, alder for wet patches, rowan, hazel, field maple, beech, oak, hornbeam, a few spindle with interspersed trees such as cherry, birch, Scots pine, crab apple, wild and dog rose, whitebeam, ash (but not now with ash dieback disease - you can't buy ash even if you want it). Elder is good for wildlife planting, but not in a hedge as it shoves itself a large space then after about 50 years it dies off and leaves a wide hole in the hedge. In the early days we did plant some wild privet, only to discover it's a bit toxic to livestock. The most hateful tree to me is Blackthorn; it has evil thorns which scratch and don't heal and leave scars that hurt, and it also is invasive, making a large impenetrable thicket which is hard to control. It does have pretty very early blossom though. A much nicer thicket is made by a certain rose. I can't remember the species but it has glorious white flowers early, then it gives itself up to the wildlife, with birds nesting in there, rabbits burrowing, small mammals and insects living where the fox and birds of prey can't reach them.
As well as hedges, we have a coppice for firewood and sticks for beans etc. It's tiny so won't supply all the wood we need, but we have planted up the floor with snowdrops, primroses, wood anemones and bluebells, to look like a real piece of coppiced woodland (I grew up next to the oldest piece of wildwood in Norfolk, which had ancient coppiced trees in some areas, which I loved). We also planted a spinney on a rough piece of ground which was quite contaminated so couldn't be used for anything else. It has birch, holly, a few elder and willows, oaks, hawthorn, rowan, hazel, apple, cherry and roses and again the floor is planted up with various wildflowers and a few garden flowers from Mr F's over enthusiasm!
This past winter we planted two areas of trees in strips down each side of the road, which goes right through our property. All bar an American red oak are native species, with a pine and heather patch at one end, an alder area where the water runs off the road, with lady's smock and a few other wet loving plants below. The very first willow sticks are just starting to break into leaf in these strips, which is quite exciting. There are still over 100 more wildflowers to plant. In our 'wildlife strip' which is maturing now and runs down one side of the road, we also have juniper, as it is so very rare now, and is a tree which used to be found in abundance in South Lanarkshire, but no longer.
You are close enough to get trees from www.cheviot-trees.co.uk (http://www.cheviot-trees.co.uk), just on the Scottish English border. We have sourced trees from various different places, but Cheviot supplied the best so far and are really helpful and pleasant. Their trees come in cells, which are slightly more expensive to buy than bareroot, but you could collect them yourself to save on transport costs which can be high for trees. Each tree needs to be protected with a tree guard, and Cheviot do a biodegradable version (removing ancient tree guards is hell!).
If you study the weather for a year or so at your place, you will see where copses or hedges would be suitable. We have taken 25 years to (almost) complete our tree planting, discovering where the prevailing wind comes from - here, every direction! ; where the soggy areas are when there's a wet winter, where the soil and rock is less permeable or drains well, and where your animals need shelter. I think that where you have enough land, a series of copses or spinneys carefully sited can slow the wind almost better than a hedge. We don't have enough land to try that but it could work.
You asked of we planted our trees specifically for the windbreak effect. Yes, but not only that. Other reasons were as shelter for livestock, as amenity ie beauty, for privacy, for nesting sites and pollen and berries for birds and bees, to provide hiding places for insects (we don't keep the area under hedges clear for that reason), for foraging for us, and hopefully for part of a wildlife corridor from the river in the valley to our north, all the way to the river in the next valley to our south - a few landowners still need convincing. We also harvest bean poles and firewood, and feed our sheep tree hay, or whole branches cut for them in the winter.
As well as all the trees I've mentioned, we have a lot of willows, which were the first windbreaks we planted. They grow so quickly and help to shelter the slower growing trees and hedges. Their roots do spread a long way and they suck up water rapidy. Some willows and poplars can grow extremely tall, and in a windy area they can break and cause damage, so take care where you plant tall trees.
We don't have deer here although occasionally one has jumped in, but hares can be a pest nibbling tree bark when it's snowy, but we don't complain - their need is greater than ours.
Our hens are free range but never leave our land. Their favourite areas are the fruit cage, where they do a lot of good raking up pests, and under the hedges. Hens are originally forest birds so they really love scratching about under trees and bushes :hughen:
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Thanks @Fleecewife. You've been busy! Understand it's taken you a while to get to that point but sounds amazing what you have done. I had read about planting a double layer hedge but planting smaller areas sounds a good idea. We have a similar problem with winds in all directions too. And some of the hedging you mention has been what I have been looking at but I get the point ( :roflanim:) about Blackthorn. It is supposed to be good for wildlife though as you say. I was wondering about some willow somewhere as apparently it's quite good for sheep too. Thanks for the link re cheviot trees, sounds perfect and always better to get somewhere people can recommend. I'll get in touch with them asap.
I'm passionate about wildlife of all kinds so really I think like you but I'm way further behind on my journey/adventure :D. If I manage to make any improvement on the land, wildlife and meadow wise, I'll have hopefully left it better than it was at least :)
My chickens and the ducks love scratching about where the raspberry and blueberry bushes are. The birds and they ate the lot last year as I didn't have time to put up anything over them but they all enjoyed themselves :yum: :D
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Well, what was it?? How does it look now?
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Finally the weird plant has grown! And it's...............
Butterbur!
So not a deadly plant lol actually great for bees and apparently where I live it's one of the best areas for the male + female plants in the UK. They used to use the big rhubarb type leaves to wrap butter in. So hence the name :)
You live and learn :D
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So [member=28951]Steph Hen[/member] was right, and before she even saw the pic. Well done Steph :trophy:
I'm glad it's butterbur, and I bet you're glad you didn't destroy it wildandwooly :excited: It's the main reason we always suggest that people watch their new land for a whole year before they take any drastic decisions.
Thanks for letting us know the ending.
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Guessing butterbur?
Spot on .. before a picture was even shown.. Mystic Steph..
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Yes brilliant Steph well done! :thumbsup: :trophy:
I try never to destroy something (deliberately!) until I know what it is :roflanim:
Thanks all for your input :love:
At least the bees will be very happy :bee: :bee:
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Lol! It just caught me out so much when I first encountered it, I had no idea what it was, weirdest plant, till you know what it is. :tree:
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You're right Steph it's a very weird looking plant. And found out the male/female being separate plants. For some reason pretty much only the male plants in the south of England, none in mid/north Scotland and the male and female plants mostly in the North East. Wonder why it's so different in different places. Can't be just down to the weather.
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I wonder if it's something to do with how they propagate, being parasitic? I don't know how they do propagate, but if it's usually vegetatively in the main then they don't need two sexes, although many parthenosistic plants do sometimes use males for a bit of sexual biodiversifying. But overall it does seem odd.
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It does seem odd Fleecewife. I looked up some stuff and this is what I've found out so far....!
"Most people will recognise butterbur once in leaf (but maybe not in flower), with its large round rhubarb-like leaves growing along riverbanks, ditches and damp road verges and forming extensive patches to the exclusion of other plants.
What is often missed in spring, or misidentified as a different plant are the flower heads, which appear before the leaves. Another example of “flowers before leaves” seen this time of year is the dandelion-like Coltsfoot. This botanical phenomenon is uncommon in herbaceous plants but is much more common amongst trees and woody shrubs like the Blackthorn or Sloe with its masses of white blossom on leafless branches.
Butterbur is dioecious, i.e. plants being either male or female. The male plants are found throughout the UK but the female only in the North of England and Midlands (so the Northern male butterburs are the lucky ones, with the possibility of romance denied to their Southern brothers!). Spread and propagation is therefore mainly by vegetative means with fragments arising from the underground rhizome.
It can often be difficult to tell if you are looking at a male or female plant unless you get your magnifying lens out. The easy way to spot the difference is to wait until early summer when the female spike will remain above the leaves, while the male has died back and disappeared.
A surprising fact to most people is that the Butterbur is a member of the daisy family (Asteraceae). The inflorescence or flower-head consists of flowers which are themselves divided further into smaller florets, just as in fellow family members, the thistles.
Both its scientific and common English names are well chosen. Petasites derives from the Greek petasos, meaning broad-brimmed hat, which echoes the large leaves, which keep growing throughout the summer, reaching up to 90cm in diameter. The common English name; “Butterbur” describes how the leaves were once used for wrapping butter before the days of refrigeration. Feel a leaf and you will understand why. It is not only large and pliable to fold without breaking, and thick enough to cushion the butter, but also feels cool with a white downy underside to the leaf. You could still use it today as an emergency picnic wrapper for left-overs, although its favoured habitat of damp ditches might not be the best place to spread your picnic rug"
It is damper in our field in one patch down a bank towards the beck. I'll have to check whether they are male or female or both! They are in Scotland apparently but are a lot more rare.
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Brilliant - keep searching to find out when and why they sometimes use sexual reproduction and other times not.
(I think I've got 'parthenocissic' wrong or confused with 'parthenogenic' ::) - I'm just an old lady :roflanim: )
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:roflanim: :hug:
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Found out bit more info...
"The sex of Butterbur florets is complex, some florets seemingly being composed of sterile bits of the opposite sex
The flowers of the male plant are larger (7-12mm) than those of the female plant (3-6mm), but the situation is reverse regarding the height of the plants; the females are taller. It is likely that it is only native where both sexes occur together"
Going to wait a bit and see which I've got here...or both! Apparently the female plant is taller but has less flowers, it's reversed for the male plants - shorter but more flowers. I'll let you know 😄
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I found a couple of possible explanations of the patches of monastic butterburs:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20150414-the-beautiful-butterbur-blooms (http://www.bbc.co.uk/earth/story/20150414-the-beautiful-butterbur-blooms)
https://scotlandsnature.blog/2016/03/16/species-of-the-month-the-butterbur/ (https://scotlandsnature.blog/2016/03/16/species-of-the-month-the-butterbur/)
I most like the idea in the Scottish blog, that the male flowers, which provide both pollen and nectar, were planted in southern areas of Britain for the sake of honey bees. This was before sugar was grown from beet and cane, so honey was used for all sweetening, so feeding the bees was important.
So the areas where both male and female flowers are found are the only truly native plants.
So your patches are likely to have both sexes wildandwooly, being in the north so likely to be native, unless you live near an ancient monastery where they were into apiculture and introduced the male plants only :thinking:
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So then I thought 'I wonder if the patches of butterbur are related to where there were monasteries before the dissolution? THis is another possible explanation I came across:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheHerbalCommunityProject/permalink/3926586660753466/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/TheHerbalCommunityProject/permalink/3926586660753466/)
However, I don't really go for the rather vague and simplistic idea of plants used to treat disease being chosen because they look like the disease, or the body part, or they have some other obscure connection. I don't think the successful healers of the past were so unskilled.
I prefer the idea of butterbur being used to feed the bees. Perhaps the monks and nuns used the honey to treat the black death.....
Incidentally, when I referred to 'the patches of monastic butterburs' in my previous message, I simply meant that they were all male, but that set off the idea that monasteries were the most probable places to have had the resources and need to introduce butterbur as a bee feed plant. I suppose it's an indication that my brain still works sometimes (can you guess that I'm fast approaching a certain birthday which is making me feel terribly terribly OLD :o :o :o )
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No monasteries round here ancient or otherwise :D
Thanks for the links Fleecewife - really interesting.
It'll certainly be interesting to see if they are both male + female :). Photos to follow.....!
I also found out that butterbur is good for migraines but I'm not about to test that one out! :roflanim: