The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Woodland Warrior on May 02, 2020, 10:08:11 pm
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Hi All,
I'm new to the forum and looking for some advice.
We are currently looking for some land, we've seen 1 plot which has 11.5acres which is just under the 5ha. The farmer has another much larger plot, I'm planning to see if I can get some of that plot to get the other plot across that 5ha line. Is it worth paying a premium for that bit of extra land to get the additional permissions for building rights?
The plot doesn't have any buildings at the moment.
What are your thoughts?
Jon
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I would have a word with local planning to make sure you can build before parting with any money. You could end up with just a field. Land is worth quite a bit in some places so it all depends where it and how good it is.
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Getting over the 5ha threshold is not like waving a magic wand. Over 5ha, you will need to submit a permitted dev' notice to the LA who, within 28 days, can reject your PD proposal and request a planning application instead !
What sort of development do you have in mind ?
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In order to qualify for permitted development for a holding of 5 hectares +, you do not actually have to own 5 ha +. You just have to have the use of it. So rather than buy any extra land it may be worth considering renting it. If you wold rather buy it then it's really how much you value it as to whether you think it's worth paying a premium.
As you probably know, permitted development is just that - permitted, and you do not have to apply for planning permission but just send in your plans to the council to let them know what you intend doing. They may put conditions on - like you can only use the buildings for storage and not animals. They did that with some buildings I put up a few years ago, but quite honestly once the buildings are up, then unless anything or anybody brings you to the council's attention then they don't bother about what you do in them (within the law obviously!)
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landroverroy is absolutely right; you do not need to actually own the 5ha+ used for your agricultural activity.
However, clearly the Planning Officer is going to be sceptical if you can only show a top-up rental agreement on a very sort-term basis.
What is an acceptable rental agreement wrt permitted dev' ? - I don't know.
Finally though, Planning Officers do have the right to do more than just place conditions an a permitted dev' notice - they can require a full planning application if they are not happy.
Best you talk to your LA planning office if you can: some, like Cornwall Council, won't talk though unless one has submitted a form and paid a fee !!
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Remember that you do need to be able to show that the permitted development is "reasonably necessary for the purposes of agriculture within the unit" and that it "must be on agricultural land, which means land in use for agriculture for the purposes of a trade or business".
So make sure your application makes clear what the agricultural use of the land is and has been and gives a reasonable justification for why the building is necessary. But be careful with how you answer these - as others have mentioned there are extra rules for buildings to house animals.
More info:
http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/resources/000/264/299/annexepps7.pdf (http://adlib.everysite.co.uk/resources/000/264/299/annexepps7.pdf)
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Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.
I've had a look through the LA planning portal at the permitted development applications that have been submitted recently - quite a difference in the detailed provided.
The landowner isn't interested in selling the plot until he gets a buyer for the much bigger plot next to it. Not sure why he split into two lots, hey ho back to the search.
The plan for the land is a market garden business so need storage, polytunnel etc so need to get an understanding of what the planning officers are supportive of.
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He might have to wait awhile. Property market's gone out the window. It'll be a buyers market when this ends
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Land always sells at the right price. They don't make it any more. :sunshine:
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Small plots of land always have a market. The only way land prices will plummet is if large institutions all offload lots of land at once.
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Small plots of land always have a market. The only way land prices will plummet is if large institutions all offload lots of land at once.
This one obviously has but the seller is holding out for more money and he'll have to be very lucky to get it. Prices will not be high - there won't be much money about.
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Small plots of land always have a market. The only way land prices will plummet is if large institutions all offload lots of land at once.
Agreed! And that isn't going to happen. What else is there to put money into that cannot fall apart or end up permanently worthless? Land always bounces back eventually.
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Small plots of land always have a market. The only way land prices will plummet is if large institutions all offload lots of land at once.
This one obviously has but the seller is holding out for more money and he'll have to be very lucky to get it. Prices will not be high - there won't be much money about.
Not true! There's always money about - maybe not you and me, but read about Warren Buffet and what he says about the time to buy. There's far more money about at the moment than you might imagine. Just people are trying to talk down the land and property market, and sellers refusing to be brow beaten. If I had land for sale, I wouldn't sell at a stupidly low price because as soon as this crisis is over the property market is going to bounce back up. There is money readily available at 0% interest for a year, with no security, to any credible businesses, and if I saw some land for sale near me, for the going rate, and it suited my purposes, then I would most certainly be buying, and not be trying to haggle it down and lose it to someone else. Land on your doorstep is worth a considerable premium over that 10 miles down the road.
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Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts.
I've had a look through the LA planning portal at the permitted development applications that have been submitted recently - quite a difference in the detailed provided.
The landowner isn't interested in selling the plot until he gets a buyer for the much bigger plot next to it. Not sure why he split into two lots, hey ho back to the search.
The plan for the land is a market garden business so need storage, polytunnel etc so need to get an understanding of what the planning officers are supportive of.
On Cornwall Council's planning site, I find it very difficult to filter search results for PD notices as opposed to PP applications !!
Anyway, as to splitting up land for sale [member=202015]Woodland Warrior[/member] : this is very common from my experience when the land area is already fairly small and particularly when there are no buildings or structures. Land agent will have advised the seller on how "best", from their experience, to offer/split the land for sale to potentially gain best sale price. I expect the seller is holding out to keep his/her options open, e.g. a buyer might come along who is only interested in buying the full acreage for sale: if a sale to you for the smaller lot is complete, the seller will have lost that other potential buyer. (Who knows though? It's a bit of a game!)
If you can afford to do so at risk (and you are really happy with the lot for your market garden biz), there's nothing to stop you putting in a planning app' for development of the land even though you do not own the land. I'm not sure what the PP fee is for an agri' land application at the moment, but it wasn't exorbitant five years ago. (Actually, I seem to recall, it was the same fee as an agri' PD notice - don't quote me on that though!)
And I'll bet 'your' LA will have a policy for supporting/encouraging rural businesses: Cornwall Council does, but it didn't like my 1st app' proposal for the siting of my storage facilities and the Parish Council were against my proposals to set up a tree nursery completely !!!! BUT it was always pretty clear that I would receive planning permission for secure equipment storage facilities, to enable my start-up agri' biz, as long as I jiggled things around wrt to CC planning officer concerns ! And when it came to my revised PP application, there wasn't a murmur from the Parish Council !! (I'm guessing the Parish Council had been advised by CC that my dev' was going to be approved. I really can't say whether that is true, but it seemed like it !)
It cost me a bit more to set up my alternative stores site with excavations etc, but heh !
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Hi All,
Things have moved on in the last few weeks, we have made an offer on a 5 acre plot of pastureland and have submitted a pre-planning application advice enquiry with North Devon DC at a cost of £100! We've detailed our plans for the land including "structures" - agricultural building and polytunnels. We've gone to town on explaining the environmental benefits from a Countryside Stewardship perspective, so hopefully that adds some weight to the application.
We should hear back within 28 days, COVID-19 dependant.
I post any responses on this thread.
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Hi All,
I've had a response from North Devon DC in the form of pre-planning application advice. Based on our plans I would need to apply for full planning permission for the agricultural building, polytunnels, pond and hardstanding. Also the poultry house may need planning depending on the size. I would also need to submit a Landscape & Visual Appraisal (LVA), Preliminary Ecological Appraisal in additional to further details on the buildings and polytunnels.
No clear guidance has been given on "if you put the building here that would be better" or what are permitted maximum sizes without PP.
I've submitted a few more questions, so let's see where that takes me. Otherwise preparation for more hoop jumping begins...
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Some more advice on temporary buildings today;
There is no prescriptive size limit which applied to ‘temporary buildings’ however the guidance below should give and indication what may be permissible:
In order for field shelters to be exempt from requiring permission this generally depends on a number of factors:
1. Size & construction – in the event the temporary building is required to be constructed on site, this would constitute operational development and planning permission would be required. If
the shelter is ‘ready made’ when arriving on site this would not constitute ‘operational development’.
2. Physical attachment to the land – the temporary building should not be fixed to the ground and should purely rest on the ground. In the event the temporary building is fixed to the ground in anyway and/or is connected to drainage pipes, has a water or electricity supply etc, planning permission would be required.
3. Permanence - the temporary building should be easily movable (by tractor or other machinery) so to ensure this does not constitute a permanent structure. The temporary building should be moved on a regular basis, again to ensure the structure does not have a degree of permanence.
These definitions have been established in a catalogue of planning case law such as R (Save Woolley Valley Action Group Ltd) v Bath and North East Somerset Council [2012] and Skerritts of Nottingham Limited v SSETR [2000].
The chicken sheds in the Woolley case are huge - 1000 hens and approximately 120m2, so 20 metres by 6 metres by 3.5 metres high!! Compared to my paltry 10m2 shed ;D
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So you can take your prebuilt shed on skids onto your property, but you can't have a water supply or electricity supply to it. Does it still suit your needs?
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The environmental impact of development (in all repects) is ever more in focus as the years go by. One cannot argue with that as populations continue to grow and land does not. Except that it's hard to believe it from some of the schemes we see approved and the Council planners do seem to be putting you through the mill [member=202015]Woodland Warrior[/member]
Are you looking at development in an AONB or something?
Have they said that the LVA and PEA need to be produced by a certified professional/s ? (There's an Institute or other professional body for every type of study one can dream up it seems to me.) Neither an LVA and certainly not a PEA is going to be cheap (I would guess) if done by someone with letters after their name!
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[member=152775]arobwk[/member]
Yes it is just inside the AONB, I'm in it for the long haul.
It's a small plot from the break up of a large farm complex, so nobody able to afford to take on the full farm so surely the planning authorities have to adapt to allow economic development in the area. I'm interested to see how it pans out.