The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: tommytink on March 12, 2020, 07:58:07 am
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Last ewe had twins yesterday. She was not progressing so pulled first lamb. It was a job as it was a tight exit. Second lamb was coming backwards. Pulled as well. She cleaned them but noticed when second lamb tried to stand his back legs weren’t working properly. I thought something was broken. He also got a bit cold so fully dried him and put him under lamp.
Had vet out who detected no breaks. No dislocation. He did have sensation in his feet. They said either pts or could try an anti-inflammatory as they said it could be swelling around nerves. After he got warm he was eager to move and get a drink which we helped him with. Because of this I felt he should have a chance.
Throughout the day and night we helped him get a drink but the although she will allow him to suck with us there the ewe really doesn’t seem to like him. When he moves towards her she shies away and nudges him back with her head. But the nudges are getting harder. The other lamb is a lot bigger but pretty quiet. I understand the birth was probably difficult for them all. The second lamb with the leg issue looks quite underdeveloped compared to the first. The ewe had a shot of AB/AI midday.
This morning she has not eaten her cake which is worrying me as they usually hoover it up. She ate it yesterday, and had hay, drank and was passing out the other end okay. Could the poorly lamb being there have an affect on her? Someone suggested tying her to the pen if she wasn’t taking to it, but would think that would only be if the lamb was independently trying to drink and getting pushed away.
The vet said leave the lamb till Friday and if no better pts. I don’t know whether to take him out of the pen now and bottle him and see if she improves? If I do that do I just put him in a pen by himself? I had him in the one next door to her last night for a few minutes and he just tried to get back in. Sad as he baas sometimes when she baas and tries to go to her but she is not interested. It’s like she thinks it’s not her lamb, or as we think she senses he’s not right and doesn’t want to bother with him.
I feel like we are finishing lambing these girls as we started :'(
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Sounds like she’s rejecting it and knows it’s not 100%. If she’s butting it I would take it away and bottle feed for it’s own safety, put it under a lamp, and then re-evaluate tomorrow whether to put it down or if it has got up then carry on bottle feeding.
Did the ewe cleanse ok? She’s had abs so not much else you can do. Maybe try some coarse mix if she’s not touching ewe nuts. Sometimes they will go off their feed for 24 hours after lambing especially if they are feeling a bit sore.
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Is the lamb improving in terms of standing and walking? If that is a yes I would keep them with the ewe and persevere with the feeding. If it is not improving or likely to worsen because the ewe is attacking it then remove and bottle feed. Massage the legs. It's not uncommon with multiple births where some lambs are bigger that one might need some time to get legs working properly.
Is the ewe taking hay? Leave feed with her and monitor.
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I’ve popped him in the next pen with the lamp on him. She’ll still let him suck but only because we’re helping but I’m worried she’s going to hurt him. Got some powdered colostrum but think I’d need some milk replacer now he’s 24 hours?
She’s laid down and let me stroke her head which isn’t normal. Looking at the info I have about problems it says metritis causes sheep not to eat and look depressed with no interest in lambs. She does show interest in the first one though. It also says they’d often have a swollen vulva and smelly discharge which I can’t see. As you say I gave her the jab yesterday so not sure what else could be done. She did clense okay. Two after births. And I did check her and she didn’t have any more. And I used a long glove so wasn’t putting bare hands in or anything and no sign of infection.
Little lamb is on all fours this morning and his back right seems to be firmer in place. The back left still looks like it’s double-jointed but he’s more walking than scooting about. I will massage and do a bit of physio on him. He definitely has energy. Our main concern is that he’s not in any pain but whatever the vet gave him lasts for 48-72 hours.
I’ve got some some show mix which we got for the ram which I think must be the coarse mix. It looks like a cross between normal ewe nuts and hamster food.
I found this page about bottle feeding. Is this what I should follow? https://www.lamlac.co.uk/lambing-advice/view,feeding-lambs-milk-replacer-getting-it-right_13.htm (https://www.lamlac.co.uk/lambing-advice/view,feeding-lambs-milk-replacer-getting-it-right_13.htm)
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Get a bag of milk at the feed store and follow the instructions on it. As it has been sucking it should have had colostrum. Once you remove and start bottling there is no going back.
Check the bag on your ewe is ok. Give your vet a ring if you are worried.
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I think I would ask your vet for a long acting antibiotic for the ewe, it sounds like she's porly. The ewe is rejecting the lamb and I would think his precence there is upsetting her. I would take well away from the ewe as even though she doesn't want him she will answer its calls and upset the lamb. Try bottle feeding him and he may improve, lambs grow fast and heal quickly!
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Ewe had a couple of nibbles of the mix. Left the bucket in there. She has taken some hay. Got both lambs on teat. Bigger one is either a lazy sucker or full. Not sure how much milk she has, she doesn’t look as swollen as one of the others with twins, but when I checked there is milk there on both sides. Going to pick up some milk replacement anyway, so will take some of the strain off her as well only having one to worry about.
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You could always pick some grass or ivy for her to get her eating but if she’s not looking any better tomorrow might be worth a call to the vet.
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She’s eaten some grass and a bit more hay. Don’t think she’s drinking much if at all.
Will continue monitoring her and may just give vet a quick call. Going to get her temp first.
On a side note regards bottle feeding. I have Nettex non-vac bottles. I cut the tip of the teat of and nothing came out when tipped upside down. Lamb didn’t seem to get anything out of it when sucking. OH sliced more off but think it was too much as when I tipped bottle upside down it ran out of hole. Or is that right?
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Yes, I don't like using those bottles for exactly that reason, unless the lamb sucks nothing comes out..
I use the Ritchie teats, they screw onto pop bottles but if the lamb won't suck you can gently squeese the bottle and it fills the lambs mouth with milk and hopefully stimulates it to drink, or swallow some milk at least
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So it definitely shouldn’t pour out when held upside down then?!
Lamb was sucking teat okay. Any tricks to get them to suck on one of these? (Apart from buy a different bottle, these are the only ones I’ve got for today at least).
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Sit on a bale and lie the lamb across your legs, put the teat in its mouth then hold it in the mouth by cupping under the chin/holding bottle at the same time. With your other arm hold the lamb still. The lamb needs to be hungry though. I too use the little screw on teats, they are yellow with a red rubber teat, much better than the non vac ones for little mouths.
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I might pick a couple up of the red teat ones tomorrow then and try and make do with these until then.
Regards feeding. Lamlac has max 1 litre a day. He already had something from the ewe this morning although I don’t know how much. Because he’s little I was going to do 5x 200ml feeds. What sort of timings would be good? Someone said they don’t get up in the night and just do last thing and first thing (although don’t know what times these are). Was thinking 6am, 10, 2, 6 and 10. Is 10 at night till 6 in the morning too long to wait? Should I space them out more? I don’t have children so have never had to bottle feed anything before.
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I find that you really need a good gap between feeds or they just won't take the bottle. I usually start with 200ml feeds and as soon as they take 200ml, put it up to 250ml the next feed. The first feed you'll be lucky if they take 100ml.
I feed mine at 7am, 11.30, 4.30 and 9.30. I keep them on their own in a dog crate with a heat lamb until they take the bottle then they can join the others.
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Your vet should really have given a painkiller - you just pulled out two lambs from her when she probably wasn't ready yet and she will be in a lot of pain. That's what metacam is for, sadly most (male)vets and sheep farmers don't think that sheep deserve painkillers after a difficult birth!
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Your vet should really have given a painkiller - you just pulled out two lambs from her when she probably wasn't ready yet and she will be in a lot of pain. That's what metacam is for, sadly most (male)vets and sheep farmers don't think that sheep deserve painkillers after a difficult birth!
In the first post it says she had abs/AI which I read as anti inflammatory.
On the bottle I fed overnight for the first week. Then every 4 or 5 hours during the day.
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Yep she had the Hexasol they prescribed me so combi anti-inflammatory and antibiotic.
Spoke to vet earlier. They said the Hexasol is a long term AB so the one dose lasts a few days, although the anti-inflammatory part is only 24 hours they thought this should cover her. They suggested giving a calcium (with magnesium) injection and that that should bring her appetite around. She has eaten her nuts now and had a second helping a bit later. I’ll see how she is tomorrow and go from there.
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As a follow on I have a couple more questions :eyelashes:
My ewe regained her appetite. Got back to hay and cake and I added water to the cake so she was getting fluids. Once I knew she was drinking again I turned her out with the oldest lamb as felt being outside and back with the flock would be the best thing.
First of all, she is still leaking a bit of bloody coloured mucusy discharge (sorry if you’re eating). I’ve read that this can be normal for one to two weeks after (looking at similar posts on here). The AB injection she had covers for 5-6 days and what is coming out doesn’t smell bad. I noticed it a little on her tail, it’s not a heavy flow. One of my other ewes also had this but a larger amount and she had a dose of Pen Strep courtesy of a friend (I didn’t give her the Hexasol after lambing but in retrospect said friend pulled her lambs so I probably should have). This cleared it up but again a couple of days later I noticed small amount but gone again now. Basically is it normal for them to sometimes have a slight discharge?
Secondly, whilst checking her tail area I’ve noticed her teat and udder area is scratched and sore looking; presumably big lamb is being a bit of a biter. What’s the best product for this problem?
Thanks as always.
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dried blood and mucus bits stuck to the tail are common as are dribbles of blood for a day or two . Udder cream / mint / vaseline or similar rubbed in to keep the skin supple
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Secondly, whilst checking her tail area I’ve noticed her teat and udder area is scratched and sore looking; presumably big lamb is being a bit of a biter. What’s the best product for this problem?
This nearly always means she hasn't got enough milk and is likely to result in mastitis if you don't help. Can you top up the lamb? Are you sure no other lambs are pinching milk from her when she is feeding her own, or when she is eating cake?
As to the continued discharge, she / they may need a bit (more) calcium and / or more antibiotics. I would discuss with the vet.
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We haven’t been feeding them cake since turning them out onto the grass. I’m guessing this is a mistake? They have a large area but it is obviously not the best quality so I need to continue to supplement? I think I read feeding cake after turning out can lead to mis-mothering and that’s what’s led me astray. Will be even harder as we have the three without lambs in with them as well due to space issues.
If I top the big lamb up how much would I give him? And would that not make him leave his Mum?
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No he will always run back to mum :)
Feed him till he’s full two or three times a day. I’ve written about how to know when they’re full - and overfull - on one of your threads already :)
You need to take care with the cake when a ewe has just lambed but once they’ve rejoined the flock they’ll be fine.
What I do is feed the flock well away from the new mum, then walk over and (quietly so the others don’t see) give the new mum a bit of cake where she is.
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You are in a difficult situation ,when you say 3 without lambs do you mean pregnant or empty ? . If you have a 100 ewes and young lambs in one lot then feeding can cause mismothering ,but small numbers are not a problem , if a ewe can't find both her lambs after feeding she needs gone as she's a poor mother . Many people have large groups with pregnant / newly lambed / older lambs all together and still feed or fields with young lambs and older lambs together still feeding
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There were only eight of these. Two didn’t take, and one lost her lamb. The two that didn’t take were returned to at later dates so will watch them but the ram is out now at least. He seems less bothered about being alone now than when we first got him so think he’s toughened up a bit.
We fed them this morning and all came over. After this period is over if the non-pregnant ewes are too fat I’ll separate them onto poorer grazing. It’s only a couple of extra mouths and my wallet’s been pretty much open since I started so will just bear whatever extra cost. One of the empties never used to eat out of their trays anyway, always wanted it straight out the bucket, so that’s something! Just wish the grass would get going so I can implement better field management.
I checked the ewe this morning. Her udder looks less sore and she has milk. It’s not hot, hard, or lumpy. Maybe her production was hampered after that day or so where she was quite off her food.
I will get udder cream for her. Assume lamb can still suck! Will check him out as well and see if he’ll take a bottle to give her a rest. I’ve looked at other images of sore udders where the skin is actually broken etc so she’s not that bad in comparison but will do what I can to alleviate it. The previous owner left a tub of aqueous cream - would they have used this on udders?!
I know I have started so many threads it’s embarrassing! I almost hate doing it now as I’m sure I look like a complete moron asking so much all the time!!
Our first Badger lamb appeared today. One minute everyone was normal, next minute there’s a lamb up and sucking. We were just about to feed them their little bit of cake as well! Leaving it till a bit later. Don’t want to interfere at all as realise the importance that they create a bond as they won’t be penned. We have a separate ration for her but with the usual stampede I don’t know how that’ll go. Don’t want lamb to get trampled!
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Everyone has to start somewhere :) I have a ewe with very sore teat and with some metacam last night and udder salve she is letting her lambs suck this morning :thumbsup: sudocrem is also good, anything which keeps moisture in and creates a barrier.
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I know I have started so many threads it’s embarrassing! I almost hate doing it now as I’m sure I look like a complete moron asking so much all the time!!
Nope, not at all. What would be moronic would be to have this fantastic resource here and not make use of it. :hug:
We were all beginners once ;)
Our first Badger lamb appeared today. One minute everyone was normal, next minute there’s a lamb up and sucking. We were just about to feed them their little bit of cake as well! Leaving it till a bit later. Don’t want to interfere at all as realise the importance that they create a bond as they won’t be penned. We have a separate ration for her but with the usual stampede I don’t know how that’ll go. Don’t want lamb to get trampled!
Great, glad the Badgers are doing it how they should :) :hugsheep:
I wrote upthread about how to feed once they are lambing in the field. 90% or more of just-lambed ewes will not leave their lambs to come to the trough, so as long as there is a distance between the new lambs and where you feed there shouldn't be a problem.
What I do is pour the feed for the others out in a looooong line so everyone can eat together. Quite a generous feed so it will keep them occupied while I feed the new mum. Then, hiding the cake I have for the new mum (so not carrying a sack or bucket or making any rustles or rattles), I go off to see her straight away and discretely put the cake down for her nearby to her lambs. Then I walk away, and if I think there is a risk the other sheep will come to investigate, I probably have a bit more cake about my person and I go back to the other ewes and make a big show of putting a bit more out. ;)
With Shetland types, and I assume it will be similar with the Badgers, on day 2 or 3 the new mum will either park the lambs and come to the trough without them, or will bring them to the trough. (Almost never the latter on day 2, that's usually day 3 or 4.)
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If you are putting udder salve or cream, or sudocrem, on the udder, take care you don't put it where the lamb will suck, and if possible not where the lamb will get it on its head in case the ewe then licks it off.
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Better to ask than muddle through :thumbsup: if your 2 returned are maybe in lamb but much later then maybe move the ewes and lambs onto decent grass and leave the 3 on the bare paddock or they may get to fit and if late will most likely be carrying single's . Most ewes want to stay on the birth site for 24hrs and even if she comes to the trough the young lambs tend to either lay a sleep near the birth site or keep to the out side edges of a bunch of feeding ewe's and you can always catch it until the scrum is over
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I know I have started so many threads it’s embarrassing! I almost hate doing it now as I’m sure I look like a complete moron asking so much all the time!!
gosh no, don't be embaressed - I think most (all) people here are more than happy to advise anyone who asks a question based on their experience. I think if you are under the impression that you know everything there is to know then you really have a problem!! The advice also changes over time too, so its useful for other people to read the replies and compare to their own practices.
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I know I have started so many threads it’s embarrassing! I almost hate doing it now as I’m sure I look like a complete moron asking so much all the time!!
I'm sure there are plenty of other people like me who are learning a lot from your threads, so don't apologise - rather, thank-you :thumbsup: