The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: SmallWelshBarn on January 19, 2020, 09:36:43 am
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Hello fello pigge keepers. I am located on the edge of the Forest of Dean I keep a couple of pigs just because I enjoy their company and they help keep an area of woodland bramble and weed free. Last year I had a break in by an unknown boar. The consequence is my sow was in pig. She farrowed down in late March the consequence was some beautiful piggies. As the sow had always lived a free roaming life with her sister she resisted farrowing in a nice stone warm sty. She opted for out side in the cold and wet and right next to a stock proof fence. In the end I ended up hand rearing all the babies from the start ( long story ) I successfully hand reared 11 babies with the help of my Maremma. They are the most awesome friendly little creatures now about 9 months old. In December I sent the boys of to slaughter as becoming a handful. They produced amazing lean meat and every one that had some were blown aways with the taste.
I am left with 6 girls every day they follow me out from the stable they live in to fields and woodland they have to enjoy a good couple of acres.
This is my problem. I have various footpaths that cross my fields and woods. The main one is the offers Dyke which I fenced in on both sides creating a corridor for walkers. This path is smack bang in the middle of a my land. I installed 2 gates between the corridor so animals can cross the land and not wander up the foot path corridor.
First issue is I am told I am not allowed the gates I have installed and they must not be used as I have no permission and the foot path officer has indicated even if I apply I won't get consent. My response was ok then ill remove the gates and animals will then be able to walk in the foot path corridor which is not a great solution in my opinion.
I am then told if the animals / piggies walk in the corridor and cause a nuisance then they will take action as people could be put of from walking the path. This pisses me right of as its a field with animals in !!!!
Next issue is one of the girls followed the footpath officer in to the corridor gate not closed properly by previous person ? Who knows. He states he felt uncomfortable and one tried to bite him. This is absolute rubbish they are curious they will follow and might nibble never bite I'm 100% certain of this as I raised them and I know my animals.
Now the council have come back and said they must be registered as dangerous animals as they are first generation hybrid wild boar. I say to them prove it !!! I am surrounded by free roaming wild boar thats not an issue and no licensing needed and no one takes responsibility. I have some possible crosses and I am penalised.
I spoke to a wild boar breeder in Scotland who tells me hybrid don't need licensing. However when I read the dangerous animals act I don't think that information is correct.
I refuse to be forced in to registering my pigs under the dangerous animals act this has huge implications the keeping and fencing.
My arguments are.
1. Any boar in the forest are already hybrids
2. Prove my pigs are first generation hybrid
3. Prove they have more than 50% boar DNA
I spoke to an ecologist for the boar/ deer trust who thinks it would be very difficult for the council to take enforcement.
Thoughts ?
All my pigs are PINK !
Little video you all might enjoy.
https://youtu.be/zpBalu9rOZI
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Yes, placing gates on a right of way without permission is an obstruction.
You can ask the council to prove the pigs are not a wild boar cross but equally you can not prove they aren't. You have piglets and no boar has "legally" visited so there is a high chance they were served by wild boar.
Anyone who keeps animals on land with rights of way have the same issues and you will need to risk assess and mitigate. If you want to argue your case that's up to you but I would take advice from your insurers or a land agent.
Long term what are you doing to stop wild boar visiting again? You have more girls to attract them now?
I don't know about the legalities of registering sorry. British Pig Association would be a good one to contact.
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I love the video clip :love: I shall be sending that link to all my grandchildren ;D
I think your Marenna might be the cross - half dog, half pig :innocent: watching its behaviour, it does play like a pig, but then one of the pigs plays like a dog too!
Just looking at your pigs, yes they are all pink, but they are very obviously wild boar crosses, although no-one could judge the percentage - the long snouts and crest give it away.
I am really sorry you are having this problem with having Offa's Dyke crossing your land. I suppose building a wooden bridge for the pigs would be too expensive? I can't offer any advice on legalities as I don't know anything about it. It does seem ironic that you are surrounded by wild boar, but yours are judged to be the danger :(
Clearly the footpath officer has no idea about pig behavior and was already set against you. I know this must be heartbreaking for you, but it would make sense to offer a reasonable and compliant front to officialdom in an effort to get them on your side. You are clearly angry (as well you might be) but you have to resist being confrontational for the good of your happy piggies and dog. Might the fact that you have a guardian dog for your pig herd be seen as a plus point, or would it make matters even worse and you're better not to mention it? I don't know which.
I so hope you can get this sorted - your place seems idyllic 8)
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I have stock proof fence surrounding my land. The fence line where the boar came in has been secured never the less if they want in they will get in.
That fence line and the covenant to fence is down to the woodland trust getting them to act is a job in its self.
Any boar kept in captivity or first generation hybrid has to be registered under the dangerous animal act.
However the grey area is are the boar in the forest if dean true wild boar ? The answer I am told is no. The FoD boar are escapees and were boar hybrids to start with.
Thus my piggies are not first generation boar hybrids. I’m told it’s down to the local council to prove different.
I spoke with the Forest of Dean local council who frankly were pragmatic and gave great advice. I then spoke to Monmouthshire who were rather clueless and said they would need to take advice and speak to Glouster as they have more experience.
I don’t have a land manager it’s just me. I would consider cows far more dangerous than small pigs frankly.
I like my animals to be free range this is the country side. If people don’t enjoy animals sick to the city !
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I'm sure the public enjoy your pigs. It's your decision. I assume you have public liability insurance so ask for their advice on what they suggest on protecting yourself.
If you can prove the pigs in the FoD are not wild boar then you should be ok?
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Yes I have public liability insurance. As for the boar that’s now down to the council to argue the point but any argument they make will need to be factual based via a DNA test etc.
I won’t be forced by some jobs-worthy pen pusher especially as the boar roam all around me in the forest which is open access land. I wonder what the liability insurance is like for the woodland trust or forestry commission.
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Love the vid :)
I was slightly suprised not to see any striping on the the piglets, I would of thought 1st gen Hybrids would carry that marking?
I think if I was you I would just admit defeat with the council. They have the funds and time to make a big issue if they want to. I would keep the pigs in the lower field during the nights and let them across the dyke every morning and evening.
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Yes I have public liability insurance. As for the boar that’s now down to the council to argue the point but any argument they make will need to be factual based via a DNA test etc.
I won’t be forced by some jobs-worthy pen pusher especially as the boar roam all around me in the forest which is open access land. I wonder what the liability insurance is like for the woodland trust or forestry commission.
As landowners the Woodland Trust and Forest Enterprise will have liability insurance but they don't own the pigs that have been released/dumped in there. And anyway that doesn't affect your responsibilities as a pig keeper.
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Lovely video. I would be tempted to send it to the Footpath Officer - or better still to his boss! I always find it helps to go to the fountain head if you feel you are dealing with a mistaken and self opinionated minion. But, as Fleecewife says, it is best not to appear confrontational.
As I believe you already know - it is not for you to prove your innocence, but for the council to prove your guilt. It could prove difficult for a stranger to take DNA from a fair sized pig. ;D
I've often found in my personal disputes with authority that basically they have to justify their existence and tick the relevant boxes. So it helps to give a bit so they feel they've won, as they don't get paid any extra to win the complete battle. It's probably not worth arguing about the wild boars elsewhere (although it would seem relevant) as their issue is your land and the footpath thereon. So maybe give in about the gates, which it sounds like you will have to anyway. Can you not have gates that separate your land from the footpath, but when you open them to 90 degrees they close off the footpath so you can take your pigs from one side to the other?
The fact that the footpath officer felt intimidated by a pig would not seem sufficient reason to have her designated as a wild animal. If he were frightened by sheep and cattle would they be reclassified also?
Hopefully you'll be able to sort things out with the help of the Forest of Dean Council and I wish you the best of luck.
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Love the vid :)
I was slightly suprised not to see any striping on the the piglets, I would of thought 1st gen Hybrids would carry that marking?
I think if I was you I would just admit defeat with the council. They have the funds and time to make a big issue if they want to. I would keep the pigs in the lower field during the nights and let them across the dyke every morning and evening.
Generally speaking a white sow served by a coloured boar will produce piglets that are generally white with some darker patching. If you cross a large white sow with a saddleback boar I don't think you would ever get anything that was marked like a saddleback.
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Generally speaking a white sow served by a coloured boar will produce piglets that are generally white with some darker patching.
I thought that the Wild Boar (and Mangolotza) were slightly different in that they passed stripes to their piglets, which fade as they get older? I've brought Mangolitza crosses before who were all striped?
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Sorry to hear you are having these problems.
Unfortunately I don't think opinions from an online forum are going to provide "the" answer. There are nuanced points of law to determine, such as the whether your pigs are first generation hybrids, whose responsibility is it to determine whether an animal needs to be registered under the DWA act, and so on. Establishing these could become extremely expensive.
Making changes to footpaths, which you openly state you have done, is something that should not be done without the relevant permissions. This is a pretty important principle as there are way too many unscrupulous landowners who want to try and put people off using the footpaths on their land and do things to discourage them. It is important to understand that this is the lens through which footpath officials see the world. If you stand in their shoes and look at the fencing and gates and consider the context they operate in, then you must surely see how that is the impression you have given them.
In terms of biting, pigs do it. How they act with you is not necessarily how they will behave with every other human they encounter. Plus you accept that they "might nibble" - that is the same thing as biting to someone not used to your pigs or pigs in general. I imagine it could be quite unsettling to have them use their mouths to interact with them, especially if they are then in a confined space with no easy exit.
It may be worth doing two things, and please take this in the spirit it is suggested, which is to try and help you resolve things.
1. Think about how you are handling the interactions you have with "officialdom". Your posts come across as escalating quite quickly - dismissive of the reports of the footpath official who felt uncomfortable and tarnishing them all as "jobs-worthy pen pushers". You have also gone ahead and undertaken works without consulting with those who should have been involved.
2. Reflecting on how you could make a strong case for the type of arrangements you want to have in place. So, how do you get the footpath official back on side - because if you can do that then it looks to me like your problem goes away. They are most interested in ensuring that rights of way are kept accessible and used. You want to ensure that people using the right of way are kept on the right path and remain safe (from their perception, regardless of any debated risk from the livestock). There are ways to achieve both of these.
You could look at how you will ensure the footpath (and Offa's Dyke Way is a pretty important one) will be as unobstructed as possible. For example you could offer to replace any existing stiles and kissing gates (which are often in poor repair or less accessible to people with mobility issues) with something more up to date - self-closing galvanised footpath gates for example. You could offer to improve the signage of the footpath so that people can clearly see the route throughout your land. You could review the gates you have put in and see if there are better alternatives for footpath users - even perhaps asking the footpath official what would be best to use.
Do the gates on the footpath need to be closed and the route for stock to be open all the time, or could it be the other way round - e.g. the footpath is unobstructed except when you close the gates to move stock from one side to another? That approach might actually support a grazing rotation that would be desirable anyway.
You will need to demonstrate how you will ensure that the fenced footpath does not become overgrown (as there will be no grazing pressure if animals are excluded). Up front you should be describing how you would monitor it and act if it was getting like this.
You can strengthen your case by including biosecurity as a concern - especially given the risk of African Swine Fever arriving in the UK. Offa's Dyke Way is a popular tourist route and it is certainly foreseeable that someone who has enjoyed walking in the countryside of parts of Europe where ASF occurs could also be walking ODW. The footpath would be closed if ASF occurred.
Are there any other ways to enhance the experience of footpath users? Would the council like to be able to put up information posts with a map to show people where the path goes or to provide some context to the historical nature of ODW? You could offer to provide sites for these. What about a simple bench to enjoy the view? Could you provide a site for that?
Who knows, you could even find that the footpath people offer you funding, labour or materials to make changes. It is worth looking online at the footpath "rules" as you will find information on how much the council is meant to pay you, the landowner, towards maintenance and so on. Our council footpath officers came out to site, walked them with me, listened to the changes I was considering and why (same reasons as you - keep people on the path rather than traipsing all over my fields and keep stock where they should be), and gave feedback. They allowed us to make some changes and provided over £500 worth of galvanised gates and probably £100+ worth of signage at no cost to me.
Good luck :-)
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Generally speaking a white sow served by a coloured boar will produce piglets that are generally white with some darker patching.
I thought that the Wild Boar (and Mangolotza) were slightly different in that they passed stripes to their piglets, which fade as they get older? I've brought Mangolitza crosses before who were all striped?
Mangalitza's were produced by crossing with wild boar. They are maybe closely enough related still to produce striped piglets rather than our domesticated pigs? Iron age piglets are striped but then Tamworth sows aren't white.
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Lovely video. I would be tempted to send it to the Footpath Officer - or better still to his boss! I always find it helps to go to the fountain head if you feel you are dealing with a mistaken and self opinionated minion. But, as Fleecewife says, it is best not to appear confrontational.
As I believe you already know - it is not for you to prove your innocence, but for the council to prove your guilt. It could prove difficult for a stranger to take DNA from a fair sized pig. ;D
I've often found in my personal disputes with authority that basically they have to justify their existence and tick the relevant boxes. So it helps to give a bit so they feel they've won, as they don't get paid any extra to win the complete battle. It's probably not worth arguing about the wild boars elsewhere (although it would seem relevant) as their issue is your land and the footpath thereon. So maybe give in about the gates, which it sounds like you will have to anyway. Can you not have gates that separate your land from the footpath, but when you open them to 90 degrees they close off the footpath so you can take your pigs from one side to the other?
The fact that the footpath officer felt intimidated by a pig would not seem sufficient reason to have her designated as a wild animal. If he were frightened by sheep and cattle would they be reclassified also?
Hopefully you'll be able to sort things out with the help of the Forest of Dean Council and I wish you the best of luck.
Someone complains about gates on a path that shouldn't be there and someone goes to investigate - seems reasonable to me. They felt intimidated by the pig following them - that's not unreasonable either. Many people are intimidated by animals following them be it dogs, sheep, horses etc. The footpath officer didn't designate the pigs a wild animal because of that. Someone told them they were wild boar crosses, be it the owner, neighbour, member of the public who stopped to chat to the owner one day or maybe there was a slight chance they knew about pigs and recognised a wild boar cross. Other than pointing the law with access and dangerous animal legislation I don't know what they did wrong. The fact the owner doesn't like it isn't the footpath officers fault.
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The council can’t designate an animals as dangerous. The animal is designated the status from its origins.
The issue I have is I am not willing to allow my animals to be classed as in the dangerous animal list. This has a knock on affect with rules relating to fencing etc.
I have gates to protect the public from animal interaction which I think is sensible. It’s easy for me to remove the gates then animals and people will interact more whether it’s pigs sheep goats horses what ever is using the land.
This is my setup which is I spent a lot of money on to try and protect my animals.
https://youtu.be/d0BlPDEyMKQ
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I would start by sorting the path obstruction. You have three options 1. remove all fencing, 2. use either side as a separate paddock thereby removing the two gates across the path 3. apply for permission to install said gates. Personally, I would go with option 2. Then I would see how far they will pursue the dangerous animal listing.
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I would start by sorting the path obstruction. You have three options 1. remove all fencing, 2. use either side as a separate paddock thereby removing the two gates across the path 3. apply for permission to install said gates. Personally, I would go with option 2. Then I would see how far they will pursue the dangerous animal listing.
I have already applied for option 3 but have been told they will refuse it.
Not an option to remove the fencing as it keeps animals and people apart.
I can remove the gates then they will try and class the animals as a possible obstruction/ nuisance. I’m not sure how they would prosecute that.
If they refuse the gates I’ll Cha Lange the decision of it means an appeal or a judicial review. Ultimately the council should not be able to obstruct a landowner from installing gates when needed.
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I think if I was you I would just admit defeat with the council. They have the funds and time to make a big issue if they want to.
Blimey, things are very different in Wales to Cornwall! :o Councils are totally cash-strapped here.
I would keep the pigs in the lower field during the nights and let them across the dyke every morning and evening.
A few people have suggested something along these lines and it sounds like a perfect compromise. You have your safe crossing for the pigs and can use both sides of the ground, the gates are only closed across Offa's Dyke when the pigs are crossing so that this important National Trail remains unobstructed for all but a few moments occasionally, walkers never come unexpectedly upon a pig on the trail. Unless we are missing something?
Someone also suggested you talk to your insurer, and this is excellent advice which I recommend you follow. Farmers in Cumbria in the World Heritage Site of the corridor along Hadrian's Wall (a trail of similar standing to Offa's Dyke, I would say) had found it necessary to select the livestock grazing the trial with great care, and / or to put a fence between the walkers and the livestock, as insurers were beginning to insist after too many claims. Up there, you needed permissions from all sorts of bodies, including archaeologists, before you could so much as knock a post in, because of the Roman antiquities. In fact I can't think that rootling animals such as pigs would have been allowed on the Roman sites - so at least you don't have that to contend with! :D
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I would start by sorting the path obstruction. You have three options 1. remove all fencing, 2. use either side as a separate paddock thereby removing the two gates across the path 3. apply for permission to install said gates. Personally, I would go with option 2. Then I would see how far they will pursue the dangerous animal listing.
I have already applied for option 3 but have been told they will refuse it.
Not an option to remove the fencing as it keeps animals and people apart.
I can remove the gates then they will try and class the animals as a possible obstruction/ nuisance. I’m not sure how they would prosecute that.
If they refuse the gates I’ll Cha Lange the decision of it means an appeal or a judicial review. Ultimately the council should not be able to obstruct a landowner from installing gates when needed.
You can of course appeal a decision but the council is not being obstructive, placing gates on a public right of way is unlawful.
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The council can’t designate an animals as dangerous. The animal is designated the status from its origins.
The issue I have is I am not willing to allow my animals to be classed as in the dangerous animal list.
Sorry but it isn't up to you to allow, or not, your animals to be classified. It comes down to whether they fall under the legislation wether you like it or not.
The DWA is here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/38 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/38)
In the list of designated species for England and Wales (there are two lists, the earlier one is for Scotland) it states:
Family Suidae:
Included: All species except any domestic form of the species Sus scrofa.
Which means: Old-world pigs (including the wild boar and the wart hog).
Exceptions: The domestic pig is excepted.
Hybrids
Included: Any hybrid of a kind of animal specified (other than by way of exception) in the foregoing provisions of this column where at least one parent is of a kind so specified, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.
Which means: Any mammalian hybrids with at least one parent of a specified kind, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.
So I think you have a problem. The way this reads animals will fall under the DWA if they are a first generation hybrid OR if at least one parent is a first generation hybrid. You are going to find it difficult to show that your animals were not fathered by a first generation hybrid animal.
The local authority is the body empowered by the Act too - the power would seem to be with them. It most certainly isn't down to whether you "are willing" or not. Again, look at the language you are using. This will not help you get anywhere in the situation where, put bluntly, you are in the wrong.
I have gates to protect the public from animal interaction which I think is sensible. It’s easy for me to remove the gates then animals and people will interact more whether it’s pigs sheep goats horses what ever is using the land.
I agree that keeping the animals and people apart may well be sensible. However the way you have done it contravenes the rules about rights of way. That isn't the council's fault, it is yours for not establishing what you can and can't do in advance. As several others have suggested, change the gates so that people have unobstructed access and you close them to move animals across, rather than the way they are now. The footpath obstruction goes away and you are instantly in better standing with the council.
This, I'm afraid, is a situation where you are going to need to eat some humble pie otherwise I predict it will escalate. If that occurs you are going to become more upset and angry, face legal issues, significant costs and potentially see your pigs removed from you. The council have the powers to remove and dispose of, without compensation (and at your cost) any such animals not being kept under license.
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The council can’t designate an animals as dangerous. The animal is designated the status from its origins.
The issue I have is I am not willing to allow my animals to be classed as in the dangerous animal list.
Sorry but it isn't up to you to allow, or not, your animals to be classified. It comes down to whether they fall under the legislation wether you like it or not.
The DWA is here:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/38 (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/38)
In the list of designated species for England and Wales (there are two lists, the earlier one is for Scotland) it states:
Family Suidae:
Included: All species except any domestic form of the species Sus scrofa.
Which means: Old-world pigs (including the wild boar and the wart hog).
Exceptions: The domestic pig is excepted.
Hybrids
Included: Any hybrid of a kind of animal specified (other than by way of exception) in the foregoing provisions of this column where at least one parent is of a kind so specified, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.
Which means: Any mammalian hybrids with at least one parent of a specified kind, and any animal of which at least one parent is such a hybrid.
So I think you have a problem. The way this reads animals will fall under the DWA if they are a first generation hybrid OR if at least one parent is a first generation hybrid. You are going to find it difficult to show that your animals were not fathered by a first generation hybrid animal.
The local authority is the body empowered by the Act too - the power would seem to be with them. It most certainly isn't down to whether you "are willing" or not. Again, look at the language you are using. This will not help you get anywhere in the situation where, put bluntly, you are in the wrong.
I have gates to protect the public from animal interaction which I think is sensible. It’s easy for me to remove the gates then animals and people will interact more whether it’s pigs sheep goats horses what ever is using the land.
I agree that keeping the animals and people apart may well be sensible. However the way you have done it contravenes the rules about rights of way. That isn't the council's fault, it is yours for not establishing what you can and can't do in advance. As several others have suggested, change the gates so that people have unobstructed access and you close them to move animals across, rather than the way they are now. The footpath obstruction goes away and you are instantly in better standing with the council.
This, I'm afraid, is a situation where you are going to need to eat some humble pie otherwise I predict it will escalate. If that occurs you are going to become more upset and angry, face legal issues, significant costs and potentially see your pigs removed from you. The council have the powers to remove and dispose of, without compensation (and at your cost) any such animals not being kept under license.
I have spoken with the senior ecologist for The Deer Initiative / http://www.wild-boar.org.uk (http://www.wild-boar.org.uk)
His opinion differs from yours n the fact that.
Firstly it needs to be proven that my pigs are first generation hybrids I can not conform that they are I was not present when the sown was served. How do I know they were served by a wild boar ?
Secondly the boar in the FoD are all ready Hybrid animals they are more akin to Iron age pigs i.e a Tamworth cross. In order for my animals to be classed as first generation Hybrid that fact must be proven you can not just say we think they are so they are. My pigs look nothing like wild boar the snout length is the same as the sow as are the colouration etc.
Again it comes down to proof and that must be done by the Local council to prove my animals are first generation hybrid its not down to me to prove they are not. I very much doubt a DNA test would show they are first generation any thing !
I nor the council can place or remove an animal from dangerous animal list without proof of what that animal is.
I am not an ecologist how ever the ecologist I have spoken to concur with what I have written.
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Yes I have public liability insurance.
Just a quick thought - does that insurance cover animals which are classified as dangerous? I'd have thought that would have been one of the exclusions on a normal policy? (I know you're disputing that they're 1st generation crosses, but without a DNA test, this can't easily be established one way or the other).
I have to say, if an unknown pig nibbled me, I'd crap myself, and I'm sure most townies walking the Offa's Dyke path would too. With that in mind, I'm not in the least surprised the council are concerned!
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There is a lot of stuff out there on the web about pig genetics and DNA so you may well be able to find out whether it is possible through DNA testing to prove wild boar parentage.
Arguments aside over whether the forest pigs are iron age or wild boar if your sow wasn't served by a boar from that source then how did she get served? :love:
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Firstly it needs to be proven that my pigs are first generation hybrids I can not conform that they are I was not present when the sown was served. How do I know they were served by a wild boar ?
Secondly the boar in the FoD are all ready Hybrid animals they are more akin to Iron age pigs i.e a Tamworth cross. In order for my animals to be classed as first generation Hybrid that fact must be proven you can not just say we think they are so they are. My pigs look nothing like wild boar the snout length is the same as the sow as are the colouration etc.
Again it comes down to proof and that must be done by the Local council to prove my animals are first generation hybrid its not down to me to prove they are not. I very much doubt a DNA test would show they are first generation any thing !
I nor the council can place or remove an animal from dangerous animal list without proof of what that animal is.
I am not an ecologist how ever the ecologist I have spoken to concur with what I have written.
As I mentioned, your animals could fall under the DWA if they OR THEIR PARENT (capitals for emphasis, not shouting) was a first generation hybrid. That is what the legislation appears to say.
You appear to accept that the FoD boar are potentially such hybrids. Harmony makes the valid point that if one of them isn't the father, who is? Just because they have their mum's snout and colour doesn't tell you what their father was or wasn't.
You are right that it comes down to the way in which questions like this are resolved and the DWA doesn't contain (that I could see) definitive wording of how the status of unknown hybrids must be established. You seem to believe that the council "need proof". Where is your evidence for that? Just because you want it to be the case doesn't mean that it is.
The Act does give local authorities all the powers it confers. So unless there is written guidance or long established practice for local authorities to follow it is arguable that it would be up to them to make a determination. That may or may not require any "evidence" such as DNA tests. It might be sufficient for them to use a "on the balance of probabilities" type approach, as civil law cases do.
If you analyse your situation:
- An unknown boar served your pigs
- There are wild boar / hybrids, of which could be first generation hybrids in the woods adjacent to your pigs and on the other side of the fence that was breached when the boar entered
- There are no other local pigs that could be the culprit (I presume as you haven't mentioned any)
It would seem entirely reasonable for the council to determine, on the balance of probabilities, that one of the wild animals was the father, and if the opinion they get from people that know that herd is that a decent proportion of the males are first generation hybrids, then it would also seem entirely reasonable for them to determine that your animals fall under the Act.
Now of course you could challenge that legally, although there may already be some case law that sets a precedent for the process to follow or outcome. But doing so, as has already been stated by several others, will get very, very expensive very quickly.
Your best approach is to try and de-escalate the situation. The pigs only became an issue after they bit the footpath officer who was only there because of the work you had done. Try and resolve the original issue, build some bridges with them and you may be able to talk this down.
You seem to be holding on to the belief that you are in the right and your pigs cannot fall under the DWA. If you really want to try and fix the problems you are facing then you have to take a broader view and understand that your belief isn't shared by those that hold the legal powers here.
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Firstly it needs to be proven that my pigs are first generation hybrids I can not conform that they are I was not present when the sown was served. How do I know they were served by a wild boar ?
Secondly the boar in the FoD are all ready Hybrid animals they are more akin to Iron age pigs i.e a Tamworth cross. In order for my animals to be classed as first generation Hybrid that fact must be proven you can not just say we think they are so they are. My pigs look nothing like wild boar the snout length is the same as the sow as are the colouration etc.
Again it comes down to proof and that must be done by the Local council to prove my animals are first generation hybrid its not down to me to prove they are not. I very much doubt a DNA test would show they are first generation any thing !
I nor the council can place or remove an animal from dangerous animal list without proof of what that animal is.
I am not an ecologist how ever the ecologist I have spoken to concur with what I have written.
As I mentioned, your animals could fall under the DWA if they OR THEIR PARENT (capitals for emphasis, not shouting) was a first generation hybrid. That is what the legislation appears to say.
You appear to accept that the FoD boar are potentially such hybrids. Harmony makes the valid point that if one of them isn't the father, who is? Just because they have their mum's snout and colour doesn't tell you what their father was or wasn't.
You are right that it comes down to the way in which questions like this are resolved and the DWA doesn't contain (that I could see) definitive wording of how the status of unknown hybrids must be established. You seem to believe that the council "need proof". Where is your evidence for that? Just because you want it to be the case doesn't mean that it is.
The Act does give local authorities all the powers it confers. So unless there is written guidance or long established practice for local authorities to follow it is arguable that it would be up to them to make a determination. That may or may not require any "evidence" such as DNA tests. It might be sufficient for them to use a "on the balance of probabilities" type approach, as civil law cases do.
If you analyse your situation:
- An unknown boar served your pigs
- There are wild boar / hybrids, of which could be first generation hybrids in the woods adjacent to your pigs and on the other side of the fence that was breached when the boar entered
- There are no other local pigs that could be the culprit (I presume as you haven't mentioned any)
It would seem entirely reasonable for the council to determine, on the balance of probabilities, that one of the wild animals was the father, and if the opinion they get from people that know that herd is that a decent proportion of the males are first generation hybrids, then it would also seem entirely reasonable for them to determine that your animals fall under the Act.
Now of course you could challenge that legally, although there may already be some case law that sets a precedent for the process to follow or outcome. But doing so, as has already been stated by several others, will get very, very expensive very quickly.
Your best approach is to try and de-escalate the situation. The pigs only became an issue after they bit the footpath officer who was only there because of the work you had done. Try and resolve the original issue, build some bridges with them and you may be able to talk this down.
You seem to be holding on to the belief that you are in the right and your pigs cannot fall under the DWA. If you really want to try and fix the problems you are facing then you have to take a broader view and understand that your belief isn't shared by those that hold the legal powers here.
I don't think the footpath officer was bitten as such but was obviously concerned about their safety. Who gave them the idea of them being a wild boar cross? They will be able to check all pig owners in a locality and see who has a boar, that could have visited and DNA test them. That will get pretty messy as either there was an escape or they visited without a licence.
Putting the dangerous animal issue to one side the pigs could still be deemed a nuisance, such as dogs that bite, stallions on bridleways so getting the gates sorted to protect the landowner would seem to me to be a priority.
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I will repeat yet again. It is not my opinion that the council have to prove the pigs are first generation hybrids it is the professional view of two ecologists one of which works for the The Deer Initiative / http://www.wild-boar.org.uk (http://www.wild-boar.org.uk)
They deal with all things boar related.
The council have told me if the pigs are second generation wild boar hybrid their would be no issue.
So if indeed a wild boar served one of my sow’s that would need to be 100% wild boar not a hybrid.
The ecologist who deals with the FoD does not believe the boar are pure breed boar. Ergo my pigs can not be first generation hybrids.
Dangerous dogs have to be assess by a profession to determine if they are a specific breed. The owner has the right to challenge in court and such finding.
The same applies in this matter.
The pigs never bit any one perhaps my choose of nibble would be exaggerating the term. Sniffing around some one is normal animal behaviour.
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I don't know much about the legalities of keeping hybrid boar/domestic pig offspring, BUT [member=99988]SmallWelshBarn[/member] I've been following this thread: I would suggest you back-off and keep as low a profile as possible for your pigs' sake.
If you haven't already done so, I would strongly suggest you alter your gating arrangements asap so that the right-of-way is free: gates (which I would suggest you put locks on) either side of right-of-way track will enable you to move the pigs between the split pasture areas easily enough.
I'm not sure why you are still arguing over whether your pigs are 1st gen' wild boar hybrids or not (they are probably not pure wild boar crosses, but ......): just comply with right of way requirements and hope that everyone else involved have other more pressing things to think about.
!!?
However, if you do have "wild boar" in your area, how are you going to protect against further matings? Your pink piggy hybrids might suggest a non-pure wild boar cross, but further wild crosses might produce wild boar look alikes requiring DNA testing in order to save them from the butcher (if you don't want to send them all to the butcher).
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SmallWelshBarn,
You have my full sympathy! And you're right; people like that are pen-pushers and haven't got the brains of a dead rat! How on earth they can dream up and enforce these ridiculous rules of theirs boggles the mind :dunce: We had trouble when we fenced our footpath off; two styles each end of the field and the footpath running along the back hedge so it was all perfectly legal and reasonable. Explained that we wanted to do it because of teenagers from the local village coming and running around the field 'playing with' (chasing) young calves and their mothers around, cutting open straw and hay bales and pushing them off the ricks then setting fire to them. :rant:
Council wasn't bothered about the kids but wanted to come and measure how far we were putting the fence from the ditch and insisted we re-seeded and rolled the path to QUOTE ' make it nice and smooth for people to walk on'. They very frankly got told to F off on the last point. The woman also told us that if anyone injured themselves on the styles they put in we were liable ???
I get that they want the footpaths to be certain width but honestly, when the woman got down on her hands and knees with a tape measure I could have pushed her head first in the ditch :innocent:
Equally though the comments on here are right. Just because it is, doesn't mean it should be, but you're up against the wall. Unfortunately, they're the ones with the power and it's probably better for you in the long run to put on an easygoing face to them and have a good old rant and swear to us on here!
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SmallWelshBarn,
You have my full sympathy! And you're right; people like that are pen-pushers and haven't got the brains of a dead rat! How on earth they can dream up and enforce these ridiculous rules of theirs boggles the mind :dunce:
That is a very nasty comment. Rights of way law was not dreamt up by the people who enforce it.
There is nothing to stop you putting up the fence, stiles, gates if you follow the proper process and if you don't, why is it the fault of the person who comes to check?
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SmallWelshBarn, I'm sorry to use your post for this but, without the intention of starting any arguments- this is a forum!
People have different experiences, get mad about different things and have strong opinions about them. It's okay to need to have a rant or share with someone your own frustration and have a rant back! Everybody has different opinions, and often opposing, but that should be respected. Obviously nobody wants to offend anyone but equally if you choose to be part of a forum like this you have to expect that someone will have a view about something that is very different to yours. As long as your words are not being directed against a particular member it is okay to express different opinions, no matter how strongly you feel about them!
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SmallWelshBarn, I'm sorry to use your post for this but, without the intention of starting any arguments- this is a forum!
People have different experiences, get mad about different things and have strong opinions about them. It's okay to need to have a rant or share with someone your own frustration and have a rant back! Everybody has different opinions, and often opposing, but that should be respected. Obviously nobody wants to offend anyone but equally if you choose to be part of a forum like this you have to expect that someone will have a view about something that is very different to yours. As long as your words are not being directed against a particular member it is okay to express different opinions, no matter how strongly you feel about them!
I don't think any of the above excuses your comment at all. I agree your comment may not have been directed at a member but how do you know that members on here aren't footpath officers, or their family and friends so actually comments like yours can be offensive to members.
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I watched the Youtube video, which shows a nice set-up.
To allow pig movements, as the pigs aren't that big, could you consider a "pig underpass"? Wouldn't take long with a small digger to put a big drainage pipe underneath the footpath for the pigs to pass through, in a suitable location. It could even become a tourist attraction in its own right in time!
I assume you'd need to liaise with the council to divert the walkers through your field for a few hours, but this might be taken as evidence for you to be working WITH the council to come to a satisfactory conclusion. I think a speedy conclusion will be in everyone's interests.
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I watched the Youtube video, which shows a nice set-up.
To allow pig movements, as the pigs aren't that big, could you consider a "pig underpass"? Wouldn't take long with a small digger to put a big drainage pipe underneath the footpath for the pigs to pass through, in a suitable location. It could even become a tourist attraction in its own right in time!
I assume you'd need to liaise with the council to divert the walkers through your field for a few hours, but this might be taken as evidence for you to be working WITH the council to come to a satisfactory conclusion. I think a speedy conclusion will be in everyone's interests.
Those pigs are pretty big and still growing. The inside of drainage pipes are smooth. The risk of slipping imo is too high. It would have to be big enough for pigs to turn and pass without getting stuck. That is a pretty big pipe. It would have to be concrete I would think. Then you have to prevent soil, water etc going in. :thinking: A lot of work.
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I have received a call from the animal control officer to confirm my pigs are not first generation hybrids as they have confirmed that the boar in the Forest of Dean are all ready hybrids.
Which is what I had already been arguing.
In relation to the foot path the officer and I have come to the solution to fit a type of cattle grid narrower bars in this case. Animals won’t be able to cross but humans can.
Has any one any experience with a smaller version of a cattle grid and would that work for pigs ?
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That's a relief for you. Re cattle grid/pig grid, I have never seen one used for pigs. Not sure if there is one or you just get one made to spec. Sounds expensive compared to a couple of gates. Would pigs respect it or end up stuck in it? Mmmm, not be my choice.
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That's a relief for you. Re cattle grid/pig grid, I have never seen one used for pigs. Not sure if there is one or you just get one made to spec. Sounds expensive compared to a couple of gates. Would pigs respect it or end up stuck in it? Mmmm, not be my choice.
[member=99988]SmallWelshBarn[/member] I'm assuming you are thinking about a piggy-crossing across the footpath for the pigs to use unhindered with a pig-grid either side to prevent them running off along the footpath: if that is the case then I can only agree with harmony's remarks.
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They won’t let me have gates that’s what I wanted hence the option of grid.
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Yeah, I'm getting that [member=99988]SmallWelshBarn[/member] which is why I was previously suggesting putting the gates either side of the pathway rather than across the pathway, thereby dividing your field into 2 separate gated enclosures.
That would require you to move the pigs every now and then from one enclosure to the other and to provide water to the far enclosure, but it could, on the up side, help each enclosure to recover a bit between piggy visits and avoid the deep churned up mud across the piggy crossing place (as shown in your youtube vid).
Let's say, however, you put in pig-proof grids (not sure what pig-proof grid spec' would be, but I expect there will be one): you would need to find way of preventing the deep mud build-up across the path because slippery mud on walkers boots and slippery, wet metal grids might not go together too well (and I note the track-way is on an incline of sorts which might compound the issue of slipperiness). Also, all that mud would gradually build up in the grid wells. Plus you would need to ensure that dogs can cross or safely walk around by some means that prevents the pigs doing the same.
(I'm assuming it's not a bridleway!).
In summary, most pleased 'tis agreed your pigs are not 1st-gen' crosses and that pig-grids might be an option for you, BUT, if I were in your situation, I would simply gate off the two enclosures as per my starter sentence.
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I do not understand the ROW officer agreeing to grids. Where you have a cattle grid you invariably have an adjacent gate. I would suggest "pig" grids are far more challenging to people with limited mobility and dogs for example than dealing with the existing gates.
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Great news that the pigs are not now under threat of being classed as dangerous wild animals :)
Attached is sketch of how I am seeing what arobwk suggests. Two gates which swing across the public path to make a temporary corridor while the pigs cross, and are then closed off again.
If it is not meeting your needs then I think perhaps the issue is that you want the pigs to be able to move freely between the two areas at all times?
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Thinking about it, a pig grid is going to be quite a costly thing to dig in, and wouldn't you need two of them anyway?
Could you perhaps build a piggy underpass out of a large diameter pipe instead? You could then half dig that in across the footpath, and half fill in above it to give a little hump that people can walk over. Does that make any sense at all?
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An underpass would be far to costly full with water and I’m not going down that route.
Yes I will need to grids that I can make my self welding and fabricating is not an issue. In relation to dogs they have no rights on a path and are not a priority. I want to manage and use my land as I see fit whilst meeting my legal obligations. Frankly I would rather no dogs do better MY land having them clear up dog crap or dispose of dog crap in left bags is not a job I enjoy.
I walk in my local forest and you see bags of dog crap tied to trees it’s horrid.
Lastly in the past I have had dog attacks on sheep so am toying with grids on all gate entry and a exit points on my land.
Styles are no longer an option unfortunately.
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The National Trail website says
Your dog is welcome on Offa's Dyke Path. You will need to keep it under close control and we would recommend a lead when passing through areas where stock are grazing. There are stiles on the route and your dog will need to be able to cross them.
So a) they may not be happy with grids which dogs can't cross (but read on), and b) I wonder why they've told you no stiles when there are some on the trail already?
In terms of making grids dog-friendly, I can think of two options. Planks or roll-out mats that make a solid walkway across the grids, or dog gates (like the ones some landowners put alongside stiles, where the walker lifts a wooden slat to reveal a dog-sized hole) alongside the grids. If your intention is to have the pigs free to cross the path at any time, then the plank / mat solution would be too risky as if a walker left them down, the pigs could escape. And I suppose there is also a risk that the pigs would get their noses under the slat in the dog gate, so it would need to have a self-locking arrangement at the top to prevent it being opened from the bottom.
I do understand landowners who prefer dogs to not use their land, I really do - we had at least one incident every single year on the farm on Hadrian's Wall - but even so, I wouldn't want to see the rights of the public to use rights of way impeded. I totally agree that some dog walkers are an utter nuisance, though :/
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The National Trail website says
Your dog is welcome on Offa's Dyke Path. You will need to keep it under close control and we would recommend a lead when passing through areas where stock are grazing. There are stiles on the route and your dog will need to be able to cross them.
So a) they may not be happy with grids which dogs can't cross (but read on), and b) I wonder why they've told you no stiles when there are some on the trail already?
The policy of LA's is to generally avoid new stiles where possible and replace existing ones with gates when they need replacing, if landowner agrees. Nothing to do with dogs but stiles are difficult for some people with mobility issues. I suppose what a grid does rather than a gate is allow unhindered passage along the right of way.
I'm still trying to het my head around what will be safe for pigs in terms of spacing.
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The policy of LA's is to generally avoid new stiles where possible and replace existing ones with gates when they need replacing, if landowner agrees. Nothing to do with dogs but stiles are difficult for some people with mobility issues. I suppose what a grid does rather than a gate is allow unhindered passage along the right of way.
But they've told him he can't have gates!! ::)
(Frustration at the footpath people, not at you, harmony!)
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I have decided to stop following this thread. It seems to me, [member=99988]SmallWelshBarn[/member], that you don't really want to listen to advice so I wish you good luck my dear Sir with what ever option you decide to implement.
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The policy of LA's is to generally avoid new stiles where possible and replace existing ones with gates when they need replacing, if landowner agrees. Nothing to do with dogs but stiles are difficult for some people with mobility issues. I suppose what a grid does rather than a gate is allow unhindered passage along the right of way.
But they've told him he can't have gates!! ::)
(Frustration at the footpath people, not at you, harmony!)
Exactly I want a gate I’m not allowed to put a gate on my own land that’s most annoying.
So the next best option is a cattle grid that seems to be acceptable.
In relation to dogs they might be welcome in the footpath blurb they however have no legal rights most walkers don’t keep dogs in close control it only takes one dog to devastate a flock why would I want to take that risk.
I’ll meet my legal obligations in relation to people, as for dogs that’s not my problem and I’m not going to waste money or time on a solution for a dog.
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The policy of LA's is to generally avoid new stiles where possible and replace existing ones with gates when they need replacing, if landowner agrees. Nothing to do with dogs but stiles are difficult for some people with mobility issues. I suppose what a grid does rather than a gate is allow unhindered passage along the right of way.
But they've told him he can't have gates!! ::)
(Frustration at the footpath people, not at you, harmony!)
But the OP isn't replacing stiles with gates but has put in new gates, which are an obstruction on a previously unobstructed stretch of footpath. And new stiles would also be a new obstruction. The easiest and safest way to contain the pigs and allow free passage is to put gates in the existing fence line but the OP doesn't want to do that so the grid option seems to be the alternative although it is a suggestion that is new to me.
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So if I'm reading this right there will be grids that will stop the pigs going down the public footpath that walkers will have to walk over? I'm sure grids will be fine until a walker trips and injures themselves on them?
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I assume the grids will be across the gateways not the path?
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I assume the grids will be across the gateways not the path?
Currently you walk along a fenced path from either end of the field, which has a gap in it to allow the pigs to cross. So you come to the pig crossing point and have to go through a gate out of one piece of fenced path and through another gate into the next section, walking across the pig crossing point. The gates are deemed unlawful and have to be removed. The OP wants to keep the pig crossing point open at all times so wont put gates in the existing fencing lines to allow unhindered passage along the FP hence the suggestion of grids instead of gates. Phew!
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Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh.
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While I wasn't planning to follow this thread any more, I came across an interesting statement on Cornwall Council website as regards Public Rights of Way and thought I would post one more time ... "A dog is considered a 'usual accompaniment' of a person on foot."
I think that could well imply that the practicable passing of dogs along a right of way does need to be considered. SmallWelshBarn may wish to ignore dog accessibility, but I'm thinking walkers may well consider it legitimate to complain to relevant authorities if he does !?
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While I wasn't planning to follow this thread any more, I came across an interesting statement on Cornwall Council website as regards Public Rights of Way and thought I would post one more time ... "A dog is considered a 'usual accompaniment' of a person on foot."
I think that could well imply that the practicable passing of dogs along a right of way does need to be considered. SmallWelshBarn may wish to ignore dog accessibility, but I'm thinking walkers may well consider it legitimate to complain to relevant authorities if he does !?
Dogs have no rights only people in relation to rights of way that’s legal position. Stile have been the normal way for years to secure land and maintain access for the public.
No one can force a land owner to change from a stile to a gate.
However if the land owner changes from a stile to a gate he can’t then return to a gate.
Some land owners provide access for dogs next to a stile but this is not a legal requirement.
Please read and understand the actual legislation.
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Please read and understand the actual legislation.
That's a bit rich coming from the person that committed a criminal offence by obstructing a right of way. If you had read and understood the legislation beforehand all the problems cited in this thread probably would have been avoided.
Worth also noting that stiles are more likely to result in accidents and injuries to walkers. If these come about because of the stile, e.g. it is in poor repair or slippery, then you could be held responsible. Replacing stiles with gates isn't just about more convenient access for people (or dogs), it is a practical way to lower your liability risk.