The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Fruit => Topic started by: Hogwarts on January 12, 2020, 02:40:10 pm
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Hi I have two apple tree saplings that I planted about six years ago now in a poor location under some huge oak trees and as a result the saplings have never grown (but they are still alive) they have never fruited either. My question is - if I move them will they grow and fruit? Or are they a lost cause?
My only concern is that they were left out of water in the open air if I remember correctly for quite a long time before planting them six years ago.
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Move them, they've got every chance to do well.
Take care with the root ball, make sure the new planting hole is large enough, and stake very well. Don't let them set fruit this year, and report back. :-)
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Just as Dan says. You'll know now never to leave trees with roots exposed although they seem to have survived that. The problem now seems to be the site (well, it always was!) so choose where to put them very carefully this time. :tree: :tree: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :apple: :fc:
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Great! I shall be moving them asap then to beside my new pig paddock, hopefully they will fruit to provide some nice apples for the pigs and some cool shade in the summer plus it will save me £50 or so on buying new trees.
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Great! I shall be moving them asap then to beside my new pig paddock, hopefully they will fruit to provide some nice apples for the pigs and some cool shade in the summer plus it will save me £50 or so on buying new trees.
Trees chosen for you location and exact types can be pricey but around about next month we'll get the annual cheapo fruit trees in the likes of lidl/tesco etc often with discounts for 2+. Since I have enough chosen varieties I plan on pickign up a couple fo cheapos- usual optons are discovery (OK), Golden Delicious (yuck) and sometimes a cox or braeburn (Yippee) plus decent pears and they usually have cherries (the birds eat) or damson (enough wild ones here) and Victoria (need a new one).
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Good advice already, but to add a few points for what they might be worth:
Don’t over fertilize the new planting holes – a bit of compost mixed into bottom of hole would be OK/good.
While about now is good time for replanting, so roots re-establish ‘as soon as’, do ensure they still get enough water during the next year.
As mentioned by pgkevet, the supermarkets will be doing cheapo offers soon: to note that they normally only offer varieties that are pollination compatible so a fairly safe bet even if you only buy 2. (Golden Delicious may not be to everyone’s taste [!], but I hear that ‘off the tree’ they well exceed supermarket offerings.)
You didn’t mention which varieties you already have Hogwarts [??]
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Good advice already, but to add a few points for what they might be worth:
Don’t over fertilize the new planting holes – a bit of compost mixed into bottom of hole would be OK/good.
While about now is good time for replanting, so roots re-establish ‘as soon as’, do ensure they still get enough water during the next year.
As mentioned by pgkevet, the supermarkets will be doing cheapo offers soon: to note that they normally only offer varieties that are pollination compatible so a fairly safe bet even if you only buy 2. (Golden Delicious may not be to everyone’s taste [!], but I hear that ‘off the tree’ they well exceed supermarket offerings.)
You didn’t mention which varieties you already have Hogwarts [??]
They're not well known varieties like cox or others you buy in supermarkets. One is called Blenheim Orange and the other is a Rosemary russet (I think) . The Blenheim Orange had actually grown better than I thought being actually of good size and development but still could do with a better location. I dug both up today in the foul wet weather and moved them to their new location which has plenty of sun and where they should do as well as anywhere. I've put them either side of an apple tree called a Peter lock which is the same age and has been fruiting for a few years.
I'm just hoping they fruit and provide lots of yummy apples for my incoming pigs in the years ahead!
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I'm piggy backing on this. New to planting decent fruit trees. Planted supermarket bare root trees in my last house which were reasonably successful.
I've been given two young apple trees in pots for Christmas as a start for my new orchard(daughter and her family).
Any tips on how to go about planting them - until now it has been grass for about 35 years, previously part of a pig farm I believe.
One is a two variety dwarf tree - cox and james grieve I think, and the other is a single variety cox, also dwarf. Bought from a well known garden centre chain.
I have installed a five foot fence (horizontal hit and miss type) and it's about 3 tenths of an acre and on a slope, pretty wet at the bottom left of the drawing
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Not heard of 'Peter Lock' or 'Rosemary Russet' (I've checked them out now though).
Blenheim Orange is a fairly well known/respected eater/cooker & I have one: it's a very vigorous triploid variety so I'm not surprised at your remark about it's good size (regardless of the rootstock it's on). However, being a triplod variety it won't help pollinate your other trees AND I find that Peter Lock is another triploid so same again.
So [member=196811]Hogwarts[/member], unless you have lots of pollinators (bees mainly) coming in from surrounding areas where they have visited other apple trees, you need at least one other variety (a diploid) to pollinate your Rosemary Russet and also add to the pollination of both the BO & PL. I would suggest you search out a diploid variety in flowering Group C: the RR is Group C also, while the BO is Group D and the PL is Group B. Alternatively get a crab apple as they tend to produce/hold onto blossom over a wider flowering period.
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When you say "dwarf" [member=26320]doganjo[/member] do you mean rootstock is M27 or the not quite so dwarfing M9 ?
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Not heard of 'Peter Lock' or 'Rosemary Russet' (I've checked them out now though).
Blenheim Orange is a fairly well known/respected eater/cooker & I have one: it's a very vigorous triploid variety so I'm not surprised at your remark about it's good size (regardless of the rootstock it's on). However, being a triplod variety it won't help pollinate your other trees AND I find that Peter Lock is another triploid so same again.
So [member=196811]Hogwarts[/member], unless you have lots of pollinators (bees mainly) coming in from surrounding areas where they have visited other apple trees, you need at least one other variety (a diploid) to pollinate your Rosemary Russet and also add to the pollination of both the BO & PL. I would suggest you search out a diploid variety in flowering Group C: the RR is Group C also, while the BO is Group D and the PL is Group B. Alternatively get a crab apple as they tend to produce/hold onto blossom over a wider flowering period.
Ok thanks there is a farmers glory apple tree close by across the lane I assumed that was helping out the Peter lock, the Peter lock is fruiting quite well. I will see what I can do about the rosemary russet, if indeed it is that from my sketchy records thats what I deduced anyway.
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When you say "dwarf" [member=26320]doganjo[/member] do you mean rootstock is M27 or the not quite so dwarfing M9 ?
I have no idea, my daughter just said they would only grow to 6 feet
I've just walked through a local orchard with my dogs and seen three others that look very suitable - two weeping varieties and a crab apple - I took a note of their names - anyone heard of them? Malus Louisa, Royal Beauty, and Evereste
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[member=196811]Hogwarts[/member] If the PL is being pollinated (possibly by neighbour's tree), then the RR at least should also be, taking into account the flowering groups, and then the RR should at least be pollinating the BO. (This is, of course, assuming both the RR and BO have been producing a fair amount of blossom.)
Some of the more vigorous/large tree rootstocks will delay first fruiting on many varieties (even as long as 5-6 yrs apparently) - maybe that is part of your problem, although I doubt it. The transplanting may help this year - a wait and see situation.
Dan's advice about not letting them set fruit 1st year after transplant is probably a good idea, but given everything I would suggest leaving a few of any fruit-lets on the BO and RR to see if they carry through to maturity.
Finally; leaving aside the triploid issue, sometimes the pollen from various apple varieties can simply be incompatible. Again, I doubt that is your problem, but no harm in adding at least one other variety to the mix (providing even more apples for the pigs idc). If you want to ensure early 1st fruiting, then you'll need to buy tree/s with known dwarfing rootstock M9 or M27 - in your case, I would suggest M9. Actually, you might try something on slightly more vigorous M26 rootstock if you find something you fancy on that r/s. Both M9 & M27rootstocks are best staked and M27 should definitely be staked permanently in almost all siting circumstances.
Finally, finally; try summer pruning (shortening) of most (but not all) new year's growth longer than 9" or so - late Jul or Aug. This should stimulate tree/s into developing greater number of flower buds (as opposed to leaf buds) for next year.
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When you say "dwarf" [member=26320]doganjo[/member] do you mean rootstock is M27 or the not quite so dwarfing M9 ?
I have no idea, my daughter just said they would only grow to 6 feet
I've just walked through a local orchard with my dogs and seen three others that look very suitable - two weeping varieties and a crab apple - I took a note of their names - anyone heard of them? Malus Louisa, Royal Beauty, and Evereste
[member=26320]doganjo[/member] I'm not familiar with any of the 3 varieties above. I'm not going to go check them out as I seem to think the new orchard site is the important bit.
I'm thinking your gifted trees are probably on M27 rootstock, but some will tell you that M9 will produce a 6' tree (up to about 8') ! The grafted variety will also play its part on how high the tree grows and even the height of the graft joint can influence growth habit.
I've come across conflicting advice about M9's (disease-free) tolerance of wetter soils, but I don't think there are any temperate climate top-fruit trees that do well in very wet soil (whether grafted onto 'developed' rootstocks or trees grown on their own roots). So I would simply say "don't plant your trees at the bottom of the slope".
I would then add that dwarfing rootstocks tend to be shallow rooting so, if top of the slope dries out easily, don't plant them there either unless you are happy to water them frequently during drier periods.
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[member=196811]Hogwarts[/member] If the PL is being pollinated (possibly by neighbour's tree), then the RR at least should also be, taking into account the flowering groups, and then the RR should at least be pollinating the BO. (This is, of course, assuming both the RR and BO have been producing a fair amount of blossom.)
Some of the more vigorous/large tree rootstocks will delay first fruiting on many varieties (even as long as 5-6 yrs apparently) - maybe that is part of your problem, although I doubt it. The transplanting may help this year - a wait and see situation.
Dan's advice about not letting them set fruit 1st year after transplant is probably a good idea, but given everything I would suggest leaving a few of any fruit-lets on the BO and RR to see if they carry through to maturity.
Finally; leaving aside the triploid issue, sometimes the pollen from various apple varieties can simply be incompatible. Again, I doubt that is your problem, but no harm in adding at least one other variety to the mix (providing even more apples for the pigs idc). If you want to ensure early 1st fruiting, then you'll need to buy tree/s with known dwarfing rootstock M9 or M27 - in your case, I would suggest M9. Actually, you might try something on slightly more vigorous M26 rootstock if you find something you fancy on that r/s. Both M9 & M27rootstocks are best staked and M27 should definitely be staked permanently in almost all siting circumstances.
Finally, finally; try summer pruning (shortening) of most (but not all) new year's growth longer than 9" or so - late Jul or Aug. This should stimulate tree/s into producing greater number of flower buds (as opposed to leaf buds) for next year.
As far as I'm aware the RR and BO in their previous poor location never blosomed which is why I'm dubious if they'll ever fruit, anyway if anything they'll provide some shade for the pigs so all is not lost. Also I have found a 'golden bittersweet' cider apple tree thats also in a poor location not doing very well on the farm (that I planted at the same time six years ago) so I might move that to the pig paddock as well and see what happens.
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We've got 3 Rosemary Russets. Planted as maiden whips 5 years ago, they bore fruit for the first time this year, about half a dozen apples each on average. Very upright growth, on MM106.
Compare to the Saturn, planted at the same time one row away, each of which yielded 15+kg this year.
So in my very limited experience it's not a prolific cropper to say the least. If you've got the room, plant it, if not, and you're looking for more fruit, buy a new tree of variety known for cropping well.
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A few people hav mentioned supermarket trees.
Just be aware that, as well as usually not being great varieties, you have no idea how they've been looked after. Chances are they've not been cared for well and that the roots will have dried out and been over-watered, and the trees been left out in the frost and been inside in the warm.
If you're buying fruit trees it's well worth going to a proper nursery where they have grafted the trees themselves and raised them there on site.
There are a number of excellent small nurseries specialising in raising a wide variety of apple trees, for example https://www.scottishfruittrees.com/ (https://www.scottishfruittrees.com/) and http://welshmountaincider.com/ (http://welshmountaincider.com/)
The people running these nurseries are very knowledgable and can advise on the most suitable trees for your site and for what you want
Or you can graft your own!
It's a very satisfying skill to learn :)
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Muddy Wellies is quite right about the potential risks of buying supermarket trees. But, for anyone on an extremely tight budget, £5-£6 a pop is a bargain compared to nursery prices (which vary so greatly that I won't offer a comparative price). Just check them carefully for any signs of damage and buy as early as they become available (which will be soonish) and plant them promptly after a good root soaking in a bucket. They are often 'feathered' so select for most evenly spaced branching.
Alternative budget option (slightly more expensive) is buying bare-root grafted trees on-line - place your orders soon !!
[In passing, to add that the Golden Delicious has been used to mother or father so many of the newer varieties of apple, for some reason !!!]
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Alternatively, just plant apple pips!
A surprising number will poduce good fruit - and if its particularly tasty you can register it as a new variety!
A friend who planted apple pips with the kids when they were little now has a hedge of apple trees of which 14 are new named varieties
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Alternatively plant some apple pips while watching out for a supermarket bargain !!
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I've come across conflicting advice about M9's (disease-free) tolerance of wetter soils, but I don't think there are any temperate climate top-fruit trees that do well in very wet soil (whether grafted onto 'developed' rootstocks or trees grown on their own roots). So I would simply say "don't plant your trees at the bottom of the slope".
I would then add that dwarfing rootstocks tend to be shallow rooting so, if top of the slope dries out easily, don't plant them there either unless you are happy to water them frequently during drier periods.
Thank you, it is pretty wet at the bottom, have had to put in new field drains, and the Council put in a road drain and cleared out the gullies, so U wasn't going to put them down there. But In Scotland we don't really have a dry part of the year, even with climate change so I think the rest of the ground should be ok.
I found all three of those varieties on Dobbies website butn they are mostly crab apples so I'll choose just one I think, an umbrella variety probably.
I also want plums so if anyone has any thoughts on that I'd appreciate it
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Alternatively, just plant apple pips!
A surprising number will poduce good fruit - and if its particularly tasty you can register it as a new variety!
A friend who planted apple pips with the kids when they were little now has a hedge of apple trees of which 14 are new named varieties
Don't think I have time - I'm 76 :innocent:
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Don't think I have time - I'm 76 :innocent:
I was forgetting your age doganjo and, having been reminded, I would remark that any additional apple/s would best be dwarf trees also: these will need to be sourced on-line or at the nursery (as no-knowing what rootstock used for s/market ones).
Dwarfing might not be too great a consideration if you go for a crab merely for ornamental purposes, pollinating-power and bird feed. However, dwarfs are so easy to maintain (prune/spray) and to harvest and also tend to bear fruit after just a few years and will quite easily produce more fruit than you will know what to do with after a few more years.
I'm not well versed on plums accept that they should be summer pruned (not winter pruned).
I believe I am also safe in saying there is no such thing as a very dwarfing plum rootstock.
From my limited experience of actually managing plum trees, I would say that branches are more likely to break (compared to apples) if bearing a heavy crop and Plum Moth can be a real problem: there is a very comprehensive/excellent TAS post by The Balkan Ecology Project under the simple thread title "Plum Moths".
Based on that piece, I would throw in the following thoughts:
if Plum Moth (or apple Codling Moth for that matter) become a problem, a thick loose mulch below trees will aid raking in winter to help birds find any pupae;
I would personally also go for a good spray of organic "white oil" (a simple mix of liquid potassium soap and veg oil) just after blossom petals have dropped as it won't do any harm and might just suffocate a few eggs or baby maggots before they actually get to munch into fruit-lets.
(For old fruit trees, I would suggest a white oil spray late autumn or winter as well with aim of getting into any nooks and crannies in older bark.)
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Thanks, Arobwk, lots of useful info there x
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Tesco now has their usual apple tree selection in store (G Delicious, Jonagold & Discovery) @ £6 ea or £10 for two, together with pears and possibly plums - I didn't spot a plum label, but didn't actually scour through the 'box'.
In recent posts, I forgot to mention one of my clients asked me to find a cheap Williams pear in 2016 after I had grubbed out an old diseased pear tree which had not blossomed at all that Spring: my record shows 'twas late April & therefore really quite a risk as regards an un-potted tree!
However, after several s/market visits I did find one which still looked in great condition (nice firm shiny bark with no shriveling or physical damage anywhere & with v good structure: a v v lucky find that late in season and it was purchased and planted without delay and it is doing extremely well. It carried a few large fruit thro' to harvest in 2019: unfortunately fruit were so large on one side of tree they bent the young tree over so new staking required.
Also, [member=26320]doganjo[/member] , you probably know this, but dwarf apples need staking permanently. And as regards white oil; of course a concoction of veg oil and soap needs to be diluted in water. Plenty recipes on web, but I will post a formula that works for me if you or anyone interested.
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Thanks again, I didn't know that permanent staking was needed, but to be honest I didn't remove the stakes on my previous trees at my last home.
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Tesco now has their usual apple tree selection in store (G Delicious, Jonagold & Discovery) @ £6 ea or £10 for two, together with pears and possibly plums - I didn't spot a plum label, but didn't actually scour through the 'box'......
Victoria plum , also Cox apple, stella cherries and conference pears and another pear (possibly comice?). I;d expect a morello but none in the box at our store. Thought about planting more cherries as I have the space but it just ends up as bird food.
3 trees planted today
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For anyone still thinking they might be planting fruit this year, Keepers Nursery are having an end of season sale on bare root plants at 25% off. I've bought from them before and they provided me with very good stock.