The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Orinlooper on December 06, 2019, 06:08:43 pm
-
We have a couple of acres small holding that we have been turned down planning before
Does this mean we can not get lawful development after 4yrs?
-
Is there anywhere that is a good place to find accurate info on the 4yr lawful devipmemt
-
Google it, lots of good basic info on lots of lawyers websites.
-
I'm not sure I understand your question Orinlooper.
Are you saying you have been refused planning for a building in the past, but you are now hoping to put something similar up, unnoticed for 4 years? If that is the case, subject to not having deliberately concealed it, then as I understand it, you would be entitled to apply for a certificate of lawful development.
There is a very good site on the internet:
Martin Goodall's planning Forum, which has some very good articles on this subject.
-
If you can prove buildings have been up over 4years they are exempt from any enforcement action from the council
-
A change of use however needs to be established for 10 years I understand
-
I’m speaking for English rules; I think Wales is different and I’ve no idea about Scotland, Northern Ireland or anywhere else.
If the building is a dwelling, it’s 4 years. Otherwise it’s 10 years. If it’s a caravan or other mobile structure, even if it’s a dwelling, it’s 10 years.
Your question is somewhat ambiguous, [member=144981]Orinlooper[/member], and it’s a rather big subject. Can you be more explicit please?
-
I’m speaking for English rules; I think Wales is different and I’ve no idea about Scotland, Northern Ireland or anywhere else.
If the building is a dwelling, it’s 4 years. Otherwise it’s 10 years. If it’s a caravan or other mobile structure, even if it’s a dwelling, it’s 10 years.
Your question is somewhat ambiguous, [member=144981]Orinlooper[/member], and it’s a rather big subject. Can you be more explicit please?
It's in Wales, is the law more favourable in Wales?
The problem is we tried years ago and got turned down, does this mean it's too hard to try again?
-
I’ve a friend in Wales who says that yes it is easier in Wales, and talks about “One Planet”, which means nothing to me :/
Do you mean you tried for a Certificate of Lawful Use (which tells you that it’s now legal to live in a building which already exists and has been lived in for 4 years), or a Certificate of Lawful Development (which is different but I don’t know much about these), or you applied for planning permission?
I’m confused, because if you applied for a CLU and were rejected, you’d have had to remove the dwelling, or stop living in it. If you applied for pp and were turned down, I don’t understand what you are asking.
Perhaps you have to be obtuse as this is a public forum, in which case please just say so and I will stop trying to help because I am clearly not on your wavelength! Lol.
-
I think you google 'one planet planning guidance in Wales' ( or something like that) and you should find a link to the policy. It deals with off grid developments (and the criteria applied)
HTH
-
Are there any new laws or requirement changes to the 4yr rule?
Someone said it has gotten easier?
-
I’ve a friend in Wales who says that yes it is easier in Wales, and talks about “One Planet”, which means nothing to me :/
Do you mean you tried for a Certificate of Lawful Use (which tells you that it’s now legal to live in a building which already exists and has been lived in for 4 years), or a Certificate of Lawful Development (which is different but I don’t know much about these), or you applied for planning permission?
I’m confused, because if you applied for a CLU and were rejected, you’d have had to remove the dwelling, or stop living in it. If you applied for pp and were turned down, I don’t understand what you are asking.
Perhaps you have to be obtuse as this is a public forum, in which case please just say so and I will stop trying to help because I am clearly not on your wavelength! Lol.
Yes a little vague as its a public forum
We have permission for agricultural use of the building and want to get change of use for residential
-
We have permission for agricultural use of the building and want to get change of use for residential
I don't know about Wales (or England) but in Scotland you get points for living on the land for various types of activity. It appears from what my friend was saying today (she has been trying for planning permission for some years) that growing food or flowers gives you more points than animals. She has drawn up a business plan stating that she will be putting up a combination of a number of polytunnels and raised beds (you get more points for covered plants apparently), and also glamping pods. She has been advised by her architect that she should apply for two houses and she will most likely get consent for one. She is in the process of preparing a buisness plan with a three year financial forecast.
-
In England the four year rule means simply that the council have lost the right to enforce the original use of the building. In order to prove, you need to be able to demonstrate that the new use has been continuous for the full four years.
Where the building is other than a dwelling it’s not 4 years, it’s 10.
So if you wanted to get a Certificate of Lawful Use to live in what was originally an agricultural building, first you have to live in it for ten years, and make sure you collect evidence to be able to prove that you have done so. Then, once the 10 years are up, you can apply for the CDU. But there are nuances, so you’d be well advised to get a planning consultant with track record in this sort of case to help you.
I have no knowledge of the equivalents, if any, in Scotland or Wales.
-
So if you wanted to get a Certificate of Lawful Use to live in what was originally an agricultural building, first you have to live in it for ten years, and make sure you collect evidence to be able to prove that you have done so. Then, once the 10 years are up, you can apply for the CDU. But there are nuances, so you’d be well advised to get a planning consultant with track record in this sort of case to help you.
If you live in agricutral building for 4 years undetected and it has household facilities and you can prove occupation you can get a lawful development certificate
If the building was in agricutral in use before march 2013 . or for 10 years agricutral use after that time if it fits the criteria it can qualify for conversion into a house under PDR section Q which does not require planning permision
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&ved=2ahUKEwjJmfuzg-zmAhUxpHEKHfaCCRgQFjARegQIBxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legislation.gov.uk%2Fuksi%2F2018%2F343%2Fpdfs%2Fuksiem_20180343_en.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0DC-lWJrgavGDdLgdDOikL (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=18&ved=2ahUKEwjJmfuzg-zmAhUxpHEKHfaCCRgQFjARegQIBxAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.legislation.gov.uk%2Fuksi%2F2018%2F343%2Fpdfs%2Fuksiem_20180343_en.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0DC-lWJrgavGDdLgdDOikL)
-
Wow, that one was new to me, [member=99582]mart6[/member] - thanks for the link!
Ignore everything I’ve said, then, [member=144981]Orinlooper[/member], and read that link mart6 posted
-
So if you wanted to get a Certificate of Lawful Use to live in what was originally an agricultural building, first you have to live in it for ten years, and make sure you collect evidence to be able to prove that you have done so. Then, once the 10 years are up, you can apply for the CDU. But there are nuances, so you’d be well advised to get a planning consultant with track record in this sort of case to help you.
If you live in agricutral building for 4 years undetected and it has household facilities and you can prove occupation you can get a lawful development certificate
That’s not my reading of the legislation I’ve read, but you seem to have more up to date info than mine!
-
I rather think the planners would try to refute that. What are 'household facilities'? You could have an agri building with a kitchenette, toilet, cupboards, table, chairs, a heater of some ort, and even a bed in it. Could you then claim it's a home?
-
I rather think the planners would try to refute that. What are 'household facilities'? You could have an agri building with a kitchenette, toilet, cupboards, table, chairs, a heater of some ort, and even a bed in it. Could you then claim it's a home?
Yes if it had toilet bath/shower installed if they did not the gov planning inspector would
[member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member] my reading is correct if criteria is met
I had a enforcement notice served council wanted facilities removing gov planning inspector commented on what would constitute C3 residential use
"18. It is unclear whether the Council consider that the term ‘residential use’ amounts to ‘dwelling house’ as defined by Class C3 of the Town and Country Planning (Use Classes) Order 1987. The bay at the northern end of the building contains a sofa which can also be utilised as a bed, kitchen units, a wardrobe, a cooker, a microwave, a kettle, a fridge freezer and a sink with running water. Heating is provided throughout the building through radiators linked to a wood-burning boiler which is situated in a lean-to at the rear. There are no toilet, shower or bathing facilities at the site.
19. Thus, the facilities available are sufficient to provide heated shelter, cooking facilities and a place to sleep on the sofa. It is clear that the appellant has, on occasion, stayed overnight at the site but, to my mind, toilet and bathing/ showering facilities are essential for day to day existence. The lack of those basic facilities would be likely to discourage prolonged stays at the site and their absence indicates that the building is not equipped with a full range of essential services to enable it to function as a dwelling house."
-
Has there been any changes since covid19?
I suspect the old rules won’t apply anymore
I mean no inspector will come out anymore
-
Has there been any changes since covid19?
I suspect the old rules won’t apply anymore
I mean no inspector will come out anymore
Don't bank on it - who knows what will happen
-
Has there been any changes since covid19?
I suspect the old rules won’t apply anymore
I mean no inspector will come out anymore
Don't bank on it - who knows what will happen
Covid doesn't change legislation (rules) but might affect how a department works.