The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: Anke on November 20, 2019, 12:32:37 pm
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We are having to plant a hedge between us and a vacant plot that may or may not be built on in the near future (OPP granted ages ago and extended twice, but now someone seriously interested). The hedge would be on our north facing side, so no light issues (for us). Has to be native and non-toxic (in the rare event that my goats/sheep get out - so no evergreen), but need privacy all year round (the plot is higher than we are, so hedge needs to grow eventually to max allowed height of 2m). We are thinking beech, but I have also looked at hornbeam. Never grown hornbeam or even seen it somewhere. Question - does anyone know if it a) grows better or at least as well as beech, b) keeps its leaves on in winter (as it says in the books) and c) isn't being eaten by some invasive disease like ash die back?
Hornbeam is a lot cheaper than beech...
We are in South Eastern Scotland, about 100m above sea level, but fairly exposed to Northeast winds.
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I live in Cornwall now and have previously lived in Exmoor, Wiltshire, Cumbria and Northumberland, amongst other places! (I’m quite old :/ )
Twenty-thirty years ago, Exmoor and other parts of Somerset, Devon and Cornwall used to have a lot of well-maintained beech hedges. Sadly, the way the economics of farming have gone in the last 30 years means the majority of them are no longer maintained and have become straggly lines of beech trees, which the wind strips every October, instead of wonderful strong thick shelter which keeps many of its leaves through winter.
In Wiltshire we had a hornbeam hedge which did indeed perform like the books say; trimmed correctly in summer it would stay thick and keep its leaves through winter. But it was in a relatively sheltered spot, and I don’t know whether it would have worked as a field boundary somewhere wilder.
My initial reaction to your post was how high up are you? Isn’t much of Scotland is too far north / high / cold for beech? But if beech grows well locally then no reason to not try it. And if beech would work then maybe hornbeam would perform equally well.
I suspect hornbeam trunks might grow more slowly than beech, but that’s a hunch rather than knowledge. But if you only need a 6’ hedge, the slightly slower growth wouldn’t be an issue and might even help establish a nice thick hedge.
I’m not aware of any disease issues with hornbeam, but I’m no expert.
There’s a fab company in the far north of England, called “Trees Please”, who supply a lot of trees and shrubs to farmers, environmental schemes and the general public across Great Britain. They’re very knowledgeable, and often know what will work well where. Lots of great info on their website (http://www.treesplease.co.uk/information-centre/), and they were happy to chat when I used them a few years ago. (Mind, we were buying a few thousand trees for the farm in Cumbria, so I guess they thought I was worth spending a bit of time with! Lol)
Let us know what you discover, what you choose, and how you get on!
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I've looked at hornbeam a bit. No diseases have come to the fore. I read an artical may have been by titchmarsh saying hoenbeam was better than beech... Think he liked the crinkled leaves.
I do love a holly and beech mixed hedge for interest, they grow well together without outcompeting.
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Hi Anke, we are at 1000' and we grow both beech and hornbeam, plus lots else. The hornbeam in theory does better in damper places (we have used it mostly in our lowest, slightly soggy areas) whereas beech prefers it rather drier, but in the main they are pretty interchangeable. Hornbeam does keep it's leaves in winter to a large extent but they are a dull brown, compared to the wonderful glowing colours of beech.
As an aside [member=10673]SallyintNorth[/member]
beech is the tree that makes Perthshire into such a beautiful place, and Anke and I both live much further south than that. Beech is the tree for hedges in half of Scotland, with a very famous example at Meiklour which was left to grow after WW2, as there were no spare men to trim it. It is now enormously tall and a tourist attraction. So, yes, beech definitely grows in Scotland :tree: :thumbsup:
For planting hedges, it's usual to grow a double staggered row of saplings. We used hawthorn (Quickthorn) for the outer ie into wind, row, then a mix of various native trees and shrubs for the inside row. This gives a dense hedge, even when all the leaves fall off. We have standards every few metres and where they are Scots pine, they look lovely. Would pine cause problems if animals got to them? You could include Pine as standards even in a purely beech hedge, or will that not be allowed?
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Well that’s good to know, [member=4333]Fleecewife[/member] ! Beeches are synonymous with the S.W. of England to me and when I was living in the far north of England I really missed the light that shines through growing beech leaves in spring. But I think I did read that they were introduced to the SW. Sounds like they’ll grow most places in the UK then.
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We are 1000ft as well, We have both beech and hornbeam, both do quite well, hornbeam is supposed to be more forgiving in different soils than beech.
But hornbeam does look dull and miserable up to beech's gorgeous autumn colours. Perhaps our hornbeam is keeping it's leaves better than the beech so far this winter?
Have you thought of holly as well? Fantastic windbreak, great for berries and safer bird nesting sites? Slow at first but after a couple of years it gets going.
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Thanks for the replies - we do have beech all around us and we have it as a species in our mixed hedge on the other side, but I just haven't seen hornbeam, never mentioned when I have spoken to people about hedging.
We are only about 100m above sea level, and our soil is heavy, heavy (think pottery...) clay and also very stoney. But in my raised beds I can grow stuff well, now using no-dig and loads of goats manure.
Maybe as I really like beech at this time of year we will just go for it...
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Have you thought of holly as well? Fantastic windbreak, great for berries and safer bird nesting sites? Slow at first but after a couple of years it gets going.
Is holly ok for goats and sheep, should they get out? Not something I have ever thought about, as with the exception of ivy I stay clear of evergreens...
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My goats sometimes have a quick nibble at holly as we was past the top end of the row, not poisonous, I do worry about spines, but i have read accounts of goats eating it OK.
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Why not try a mixed hedge and work out later what might need to be replaced/supplemented ?
Also, some willows branch prolifically and can relatively quickly form a dense obscuring hedge even when leaves have dropped.
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Why not try a mixed hedge and work out later what might need to be replaced/supplemented ?
Also, some willows branch prolifically and can relatively quickly form a dense obscuring hedge even when leaves have dropped.
We do have lots of willow about, as I use it for goat branches during the summer, a lot of it. But I want something a bit more proper hedge let's say?
I do like the idea of mxing in holly with the beech/hornbeam, so will see how that costs out (the tubes against rabbits are probably more expensive than the actual trees/plants...
We have also decided to half it (it would be 60m in total), the lower end (24m) will get planted up with trees (it is dead space for us and very stoney), so planning a mix of native ones for that, and I probably underplant with fruit bushes.
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[member=3211]Anke[/member] My 600x38mm spiral tree guards worked out @ £0.18 ea from Green-Tech in 2018 (250 guards for £46). When I was shopping for them, I seem to recall, prices varied very considerably amongst suppliers.
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LOL, Anke, if you want spirals, and you come down near Halifax at all, I've got bags of them, so has a neighbour who also had trees planted by a local group, who then had to upgrade a load to tubes and left the spirals. Can't bear to throw them away ????
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I am going through the costings - no holly unfortunately, far too expensive sadly... not got to the guards yet...
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I am going through the costings - no holly unfortunately, far too expensive sadly... not got to the guards yet...
All our hollies came from self seeded seedlings from friends' gardens.... Weirdly, we never get any holly seedlings ourselves, although there are quite a few birches and pines.
We have loads of old guards in desperate need of being removed, but still serviceable if you want to come and crawl around our hedges and take them off. Otherwise they go in the bin. But if you buy them in bulk they are not too totally expensive. 27p each if you buy 50 or more: https://www.scotplantsdirect.co.uk/growing-needs/support-protection/spiral-tree-guards/spiral-tree-protector-guards-60cm-24in-tall.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAiNnuBRD3ARIsAM8Kmls83pzdlhZaDcgh5kocXonQASxNYf6TmMj_LbiDXTyaYy4aP5Owlh8aAmjFEALw_wcB (https://www.scotplantsdirect.co.uk/growing-needs/support-protection/spiral-tree-guards/spiral-tree-protector-guards-60cm-24in-tall.html?gclid=Cj0KCQiAiNnuBRD3ARIsAM8Kmls83pzdlhZaDcgh5kocXonQASxNYf6TmMj_LbiDXTyaYy4aP5Owlh8aAmjFEALw_wcB)
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When we were doing our woodlands, our local ecologist said we’d get a better result for less work and around the same money by planting more densely and not bothering with guards. Some will get chewed, but the density compensates and enough survive, and no plastic waste - and if you’re using whips or the next stage up, just make a slit in the ground and heel them in, that’s it. :idea:
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Sadly the local rabbit and vole population is just waiting..., so it will be plastic tubes and a chicken wire fence properly angled down on the outside...
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Sadly the local rabbit and vole population is just waiting..., so it will be plastic tubes and a chicken wire fence properly angled down on the outside...
Guards and a fence ?? Are you sure you need the fence as well (providing use tubes of a decent height - say 600mm)?
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Sadly the local rabbit and vole population is just waiting..., so it will be plastic tubes and a chicken wire fence properly angled down on the outside...
Guards and a fence ?? Are you sure you need the fence as well (providing use tubes of a decent height - say 600mm)?
Tubes, fence, cats, pet kestrels, buzzards, owls, Gatling gun...then you might keep away the voles, rabbits, deer, geese, sheep and goats.
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Sadly the local rabbit and vole population is just waiting..., so it will be plastic tubes and a chicken wire fence properly angled down on the outside...
Guards and a fence ?? Are you sure you need the fence as well (providing use tubes of a decent height - say 600mm)?
Tubes, fence, cats, pet kestrels, buzzards, owls, Gatling gun...then you might keep away the voles, rabbits, deer, geese, sheep and goats.
It is a straight line, so we will be able to put in a chicken wire fence easily, it won't need proper fence posts etc. If needed we can also run a wire of electric at deer height.
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It is a straight line, so we will be able to put in a chicken wire fence easily, it won't need proper fence posts etc. If needed we can also run a wire of electric at deer height.
I am one for (sometimes) ignoring given wisdoms and doing what sounds right to me. However, I would offer the thought that electric fencing is not considered a great deterent for deer (due to their hairs being hollow).
There are plenty of rabbits and visiting Roe deer on my land and, for a temporary rabbit/deer fence, I once installed rabbit netting, with a ground-level out-turn, fixed to 1.8m bamboo canes and then I strung fishing line in, I think it was, 3 rows between the canes above the netting. Deer do not like coming up against stuff they cannot see and get spooked apparently by the fishing line. All I can say about this solution is that the willows I'd planted were not nibbled by deer (or rabbits) over 12 months: they were, however, nibbled by field voles!
To note that farmers tend not to bother with the out-turn when temporarily protecting their new brassica plantings against rabbits (in particular) with netting and canes.
If you have excluded deer and rabbits (and any livestock you might have) from the planting area then you only need shorter vole guards which, someone here pointed out to me, are best 'sunk' into the ground a bit.
I will bet, however, that "vole guards" are a premium price item compared to "standard" tree guards.
I expect it would be cheaper to buy "standard" tree guards and cut them into shorter lengths (if one really needs to be frugal and/or can be bothered - to note, though, that they do get slightly brittle over time and old ones do not like being cut - I've tried).
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When our trees were planted they twisted the spirals/guards into the ground, or voles can almost flatten themselves to get underneath.
Neighbour lost a few good sized willow through values, also deer like rubbing their heads on them broke some down.
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A problem we had one year was with snow. The snow was so deep that rabbits could sit on it and nibble away at the bark, because the whole of the tree guards were buried. We lost several trees that way, including a wonderful oak :rant:
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A problem we had one year was with snow. The snow was so deep that rabbits could sit on it and nibble away at the bark, because the whole of the tree guards were buried. We lost several trees that way, including a wonderful oak :rant:
Yep, winter of 2009/10 - fortunately our apple trees were quite small then and in large tree tubes. But they did get to the willow we had just started - it did re-sprout.
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Rabbits killed a few of ours off one year, lost a few hollies, thought it was more recent but could have been then, and snowdrift meant rabbits were ringing the trees at drift level,