The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Penninehillbilly on November 19, 2019, 09:41:35 pm
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Hi all, thoughts and advice please.
Last week we took on a gorgeous BC bitch, about 5 years old.
Not sure of her background, only got it quickly, apparently sold about 3 years ago through a bank holiday auction at a Mart, chap who got her either gave or sold to the lady who gave her to me.
Unfortunately she had to live in the stable, is very nervous, even a slight snap of wood burning has her jumping up.
Not sure if she was ever house trained, but if not she learned quickly, after just a few accidents she learned she would get regular walks and praises when she was good. Learned her bed under the table in a day, so very intelligent.
Couldn't understand disembodied voices on radio, but i left radio on all day so she would get used to it, all well and good untill I go near it, and then she just spins in circles
Lovely nature, but the problem is she regulary just spins in circles, any thoughts why and what I can do? She will stop and come to me when I call her, but starts immediately again. Only way to stop her is to put a lead on her, she will lay quiet at my feet, as soon as i let her go shes off again.
Also when I'm lighting the rayburn she's started barking at me, doesn't like me even opening the door, wondering if she's seen the fire when it's running and thinks it dangerous? Sounds silly, but she didn't bother for about a week.
Currently laid quiet on her bed, but as soon as I stand up, she'll start spinning again.
Spoke too soon, I don't think she likes the woman singing on the radio :)
Sorry for essay, needed to describe everything that happens.
Just to add, not been ill treated by previous owner in any way, fit and healthy, I can see by previous posts on FB that the dog was nervous when she got her.
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It is compulsive behaviour. Could be a medical problem but more likely anxiety based. The trigger seems to be you standing up so she could be worried you are leaving her. She is adjusting to a new home, new owner and living indoors. You need to find ways to distract her and reward her. Does she sit and stay? If you could ask her to sit before you get up and keep asking her then reward her, so she doesn't get the chance to spin straight away. I don't think there is an easy answer or quick solution.
You say she is quick to learn so give her lots to learn and be rewarded for.
What does she do if you leave her? Where do you leave her if you have to go out?
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She lives in the kitchen (we all practically live in the kitchen, apart from sleeptime :) ), she settles on her bed overnight and when I am out. Other dog JR, sleeps in OH's chair.
OH says she settles as soon as I go out, even when she's been spinning (radio is on windowsill behind sink, so whenever I go near sink/radio she goes faster, settles as soon as I walk past her to leave kitchen. I'm in and out of kitchen all day,
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They’re tortured geniuses, these dogs, and she sounds like she’s doing pretty well in a totally new situation to me!
I think it very likely the spinning will reduce as she becomes more settled and confident. But to aid her in breaking this habit, can you give her some other distractions? Most BCs are very playful, and this doesn’t diminish as they age - can you find a toy or other game she’d like to play with you? (But not too exciting, or that can cause its own issues! Lol.)
They also, geniuses that they are, make associations very quickly. Sounds like she likes attention from you very much :), so if you ignore her completely whenever she’s spinning, and give her fuss, treats, play with her, whatever she likes most, as soon as she stops, she’ll work it out pretty quick.
As to the radio - their hearing is phenomenal, they’re bred to be able to hear the shepherd’s whistle out on the hill across a mile in a gale! So a noise level that’s normal for us could be excruciating for her.
One possibility about the Rayburn is she knows it makes the room hot, and it’s too hot for her. It took Dot years to adapt to living indoors, and she still seeks out cool spots. In summer I mostly have the back door open so she can retreat to a cool spot outside when she needs to. Reading your post again, it’s also possible your bitch has associated the bangs and crackles of the wood with the Rayburn getting lit, and they are painfully loud / scary.
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Spoke too soon, puddled this morning, dry overnight, OH walks them first thing, said she'd peed, after they'd had breakfast she just squatted in front of us, doesn't go to door or anything. ?
Also goes into a spin when I'm reading paper and then when I screw it up for lighting fire.
I took a squeaky ball out with us one day, threw it for her, I think she thought I was throwing it AT her, she was off up the lane, luckily didn't go too far, allowed me to walk up to her and clip lead on, though rolled on her back, which she does every time outside, but not inside?
Difficult to play with toys in kitchen, JR would get a bit silly.
Interesting, OH just lit rayburn, not a sound or move out of her!
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Border Collies need work They are bred to work. Do you work her? If not that is the root of your problem. You need to exercise her brain as well as her body.
I have had my French working gundog breed for 35 years - (Brittanys) took the first dog into Scotland (they have an extremely strong hunting instinct)
We have always worked ours to the gun, helping on local shoots, and at one time on our own and neighbours farms. Since I became ill 5 years ago I've been unable to walk on rough ground, so although my girls get an hour and ahalf free running in a deer fenced woodland, the young one (almost 6) gets brain games indoors. Retrieving work, hide and seek, obedience work - sit, stay, come, emergency stop etc
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At the moment I'm letting her settle, I walk her a fair way up the farm tracks, practising recall and sit, because she is so nervous, I am having to watch all the time for people about. Was planning on taking her in the field, but goats are in there during the day, so until I know she is safe with them, i have to be careful, also i was warned she chases hens, that may be a problem :(
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Ok, I understand that, but until you can work her try to encourage her to take part in home activities, dog games in the evenings. As i said get her brain working if you can't let her physically work yet
This is quite a good book -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brain-Games-Dogs-provide-stimulation/dp/1842862774/ref=asc_df_1842862774/?tag=googshopuk21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310817437803&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6991148898707955445&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046907&hvtargid=pla-333413342043&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Brain-Games-Dogs-provide-stimulation/dp/1842862774/ref=asc_df_1842862774/?tag=googshopuk21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=310817437803&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=6991148898707955445&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9046907&hvtargid=pla-333413342043&psc=1)
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At the moment I'm letting her settle, I walk her a fair way up the farm tracks, practising recall and sit, because she is so nervous, I am having to watch all the time for people about. Was planning on taking her in the field, but goats are in there during the day, so until I know she is safe with them, i have to be careful, also i was warned she chases hens, that may be a problem :(
I get the settling in bit but some of that is her learning what you expect from her. How long do you let her "settle" and then unsettle her by changing what she has got used to? There is such a lot going on with her that maybe you should seek help locally? Your vet could perhaps recommend someone. You will have to think outside the box. If she is 5 and no-one has thrown her a ball then she isn't going to know what the game is about. Roll it along the ground instead. Take her in the field with the goats and chickens, on a lead, don't make a big deal of it but don't walk straight at them, "tell her to leave them" or "that'll do" as you move around them. When you tell her to leave or that'll do draw her towards you. You can build up the length of lead/rope over time until you are happy she has learnt to ignore. I wouldn't put her in any situation where she could disgrace herself.
How did you let her know the puddle in the kitchen was unacceptable?
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I get the settling in bit but some of that is her learning what you expect from her. How long do you let her "settle" and then unsettle her by changing what she has got used to? There is such a lot going on with her that maybe you should seek help locally? Your vet could perhaps recommend someone. You will have to think outside the box. If she is 5 and no-one has thrown her a ball then she isn't going to know what the game is about. Roll it along the ground instead. Take her in the field with the goats and chickens, on a lead, don't make a big deal of it but don't walk straight at them, "tell her to leave them" or "that'll do" as you move around them. When you tell her to leave or that'll do draw her towards you. You can build up the length of lead/rope over time until you are happy she has learnt to ignore. I wouldn't put her in any situation where she could disgrace herself.
How did you let her know the puddle in the kitchen was unacceptable?
Didn't make a big deal about puddle, OH saw her and said something like 'oi oi' quite loudly, I jumped up put a lead on her, mainly to move her away from puddle, she doesn't seem to tnink and walks through it. He took her out while I mopped up.
What should we do? She generally does OK, just need her to go to door when she does need to go.
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You don't mention Penninehillbilly how she interacts with your other dog and how does he/she react to her - are they good together?
Without back-tracking the thread, I don't think you mention whether she used to spin with previous owner - has she always been a spinner?
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Been making a list of points I haven't replied to :) .
Harmony, haven't got her to stay yet, sometimes still have to encourage her to sit.
I thought by giving her more time she may calm down a bit more. If I walk her in with the goats i think she would go into meltdown as they would gather round to examine her. I think I'll take her into the barn either tonight or tomorrow, give them chance to say hello in controlled conditions.doesnt look twice at sheep (not a working dog)
Generally gets on fine with JR, bit of jealousy occasionally if he sits next to me. When she is really spinning, and giving little gruff barks, he will sometimes run to her, barking, as though telling her to stop.
Previous owner did warn about the spinning, and when we go out, she walks fine on extending lead, when I let her off she spins but in bigger circles, just a few times, then runs round me in tight circles. Always to her left. When she is spinning in kitchen, the way she bounces round on her front paws makes me think of the way they go through the poles in agility comps.
SALLY. If I ignore her she just gets faster, i get worried for her and give in and call or whistle and she comes to me, radio is only on low unless news sounds interesting. I will leave it off tomorrow, see what happens.
She didn't even look when OH lit the rayburn tonight, so it's something to do with me ? Not hot in kitchen, she is content on her bed, the floor covering would be cooler?
DOGANJO. Looked at the book, sounds interesting, will see if i can get one, both would benefit :) . She isnt a working collie, maybe thats why she has been passed round a bit :( .
Had a harness given with her, When she 'getting upset?', while I was lighting rayburn yesterday, I put this harness on her, she just laid down and went quiet!
Or when I put the lead on her when she was spinning, I tied her to table leg for a few minutes, she just lay quiet, not stressed, immediately calmed down. Obviously don't want to do that often, but it was safer for both of us at that time.
I will see if what I can do to make her think a bit. And would like to see if i can get her retrieving.
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Now, while BCs are generally accepted as being highly intelligent, if not the most intelligent canine variety, I think of them as bordering (no pun intended) on being autistic! Some of your remarks Phb have got me to thinking whether your new BC falls more to the right, than other BCs, on a measure of doggie autism. ??? ???
Whatever (re the above); I would suggest she needs absolutely loads of attention and to be routinely 'worked' hard in some form or another. (Watch out goats !!)
Just random thoughts (that might be of no use what so ever !?).
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Absolutely agree, arobwk! I’ve often thought that Dot has many autistic traits. Watching her when something different (even when it’s nice) is in her dinner bowl is hilarious :roflanim: :love: :dog: I love her to pieces and wouldn’t change anything about her (well, maybe one thing :thinking:) - but yep, definitely high functioning autistic!
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To me the 'spinning' seems to be a form of the 'rounding up' that most sheepdogs do by instinct. Sooner she gets a chance to work the better in my opinion. Don't be soft on her, she's a dog.
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To me the 'spinning' seems to be a form of the 'rounding up' that most sheepdogs do by instinct. Sooner she gets a chance to work the better in my opinion. Don't be soft on her, she's a dog.
"Don't be soft on her, she's a dog" made me smile, because it's something I 'advise' my ex-OH every now and then. However, I would still say, Phb, that you give your troubled BC loads of attention, which is not the same as being soft/spoiling.
I also agree that the spinning might be a form of rounding up (although such stressed behavior is by no means restricted to collies) and, of course, that she be 'worked'.
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if the barking is only at you lighting the raeburn then its attention seeking (more specifically your attention) try getting someone to fuss over her when you light it next
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if the barking is only at you lighting the raeburn then its attention seeking (more specifically your attention) try getting someone to fuss over her when you light it next
Normally nobody else here, and if OH is here, there would be fireworks from the JR, 'his' dog (or the dog that owns him)?.
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To me the 'spinning' seems to be a form of the 'rounding up' that most sheepdogs do by instinct. Sooner she gets a chance to work the better in my opinion. Don't be soft on her, she's a dog.
I was told she wasn't interested, certainly not looked twice at sheep and we are surrounded by them.
I got her as more of a companion when I'm out and about, but currently not out and about as much :(
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Peaceful
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... I was told she wasn't interested, certainly not looked twice at sheep and we are surrounded by them.
Sounds like the poor thing is a bit confused (has previously been confused) about her purpose in life. Seems to me, though, she has landed in a place where she might work something out idc. V good luck Phb. I, for one, will definitely be looking forward to updates along the way.
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To me the 'spinning' seems to be a form of the 'rounding up' that most sheepdogs do by instinct. Sooner she gets a chance to work the better in my opinion. Don't be soft on her, she's a dog.
I was told she wasn't interested, certainly not looked twice at sheep and we are surrounded by them.
Well, she could have the instinct to run round things, but not the instinct to chase sheep :). However, I’ve imagined the spinning to be more like chasing her tail (but without actually trying to catch her tail) : tight circles, rather than running around something? Both are collie traits :/.
One tactic I’ve used to help with a habit I wanted to break is to put a word on it, so I can ask for it, and then I can also ask for it to stop ;). (Or ask for something different, which is often easier.) Collies are very quick to make associations, so if every time she spins you say, “Dance! Dance!”, firstly in an asking tone of voice and then in a “good girl” tone of voice, she will quickly make the association between the word and the action, and you will soon be able to ask for the behaviour.
I teach all my dogs “Settle” the same way, then I can ask them to settle down whenever I want.
(Derek Scrimgeour tells us to not ever say “good dog” to a collie, but rather to use the word for the action, while they are doing the action, in a praising tone of voice. Less open to misinterpretation and making the wrong associations! ;). )
If you can teach her “Dance!” and “Settle”, you can ask for the spinning, praise the obedience (by saying “Dance” in a praising tone of voice) - and then, after giving her a moment of spinning and being praised, ask for settling down.
Worth a try, anyway!
And I too feel warm and happy that she’s found a home where she will be given the time and patience to adapt and find her way into a new and rewarding life :love: And would love to get updates about her too :excited:
She’s beautiful :love: :dog:
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How's it going [member=22672]Penninehillbilly[/member] ?
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If you can teach her “Dance!” and “Settle”, you can ask for the spinning, praise the obedience (by saying “Dance” in a praising tone of voice) - and then, after giving her a moment of spinning and being praised, ask for settling down.
Worth a try, anyway!
And I too feel warm and happy that she’s found a home where she will be given the time and patience to adapt and find her way into a new and rewarding life :love: And would love to get updates about her too :excited:
She’s beautiful :love: :dog:
I do that too, SiN, Missy gets so excited in teh car when we are getting near places she nows she'll get a run -how she knows he road is beyond me - she somtimes isn't even sitting up looking out teh back window when she'll suddenly jump a=up and start whining. Must be scent I reckon. But, 'Settle Missy' and she stops the whining and leaping around, but will still give tiny little squeaks.
I've aways been told to teach my dogs to bark, then if I want them to bark I use 'Speak to me', and they rarely bark otherwise.
I was wondering how she was doing too. I've always thought that dogs that have special traits are special, and more interesting than those that don't. :innocent:
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Kept meaning to give an update :) .
To be honest at the moment she is a bit of a liability, was told she didn't look at sheep, she DOES (none had been near the fence previously), not been in a field with any, but we are surrounded by them, (inc a few of my own), recall not reliable.
When we go in the goat barn or down to the goats in the field shelter she just goes into a completly mad spin where i have to get her out to calm her dowm, or runs round the back of the shelter trying to get in. Put a rabbit up in the top field one day, she shot after it, deaf to any whistles or calls, rabbit went through fence into neighbours sheep field, she was running up and down the fence, farmer is not known for the best of fences, i was praying she wouldn't find a gap. She did come back to me when she couldn't get through.
Sally, I hadn't realised I hadn't answered, yes, it is like chasing her tail, sometimes she will just walk in circles, other times she gets faster and faster, I have noticed she will keep glancing at me, I've tried ignoring her, but if she sees me looking she will break off and come to me.
I generally just talk her down, just by me quietly saying 'calm down' a few times seems work,
She doesn't do it as much as when she first came.
Other dog is a big problem with her, he barks when we leave the kitchen, she has started getting aggressive towards him, now its almost as though she is watching and waiting for him to start, she is barking at him, not the door like he is. I'm thinking she thinks she is protecting us, maybe his barking sounds like it is threatening us?
Husband not happy about her, partly that barking, but sometimes when he takes them a walk she runs off up the lane, (not far, only 10-15metres, and it's a farm track) he will have to come in to get me to go out and get her in, she hates his torch, a bright worklight, I've told him she hates it, last time she wouldn't come in, he said he hadn't used it, I told him I'd seen him with it on down the lane, of course he was shining it up the lane looking for her when i went out! i dont like bright lights in my eyes either! But when i was mending a torch, got it working, i noticed she went and curled up in a corner where she doesn't normally, i hadn't shone it at her, Very strange .
OH just left kitchen, JR started barking, she started at him, but came to me when I called, sat on my foot gazing up at me 'aren't I a good girl mum' :) .
Still won't look at a ball, bought some rubber bones for them both, JR keeps claiming them all, but she will chew at one occasionally.
Have to admit, January I have been bogged down by OH's office work, end of year etc, but can spend a bit more time with her again now.
Another thing, walking trotting normal, but when she runs, she will hold her left rear foot off the ground for a few strides at a time, and when walking, holds her tail to the left all the time, considering she seems frightened of vans, I've wondered if she could have been knocked by one, any thoughts on that please? Or should I be worrying about hip dysplasia? Not sure what symptoms would be?
At least she's putting a bit of weight on now, and had a dish given to slow that gobbling food down.
And for all our problems, she ain't going anywhere else! :) Love her..
Sorry, just realised what an essay, but I'm leaving it as is.
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Phb, I don't reckon anyone will mind your "essay" in the slightest. Much to ponder, but pleased to hear she is starting to make a connection.
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It's great to get an update, thanks so much!
Collie's senses are so sensitive, it could well be that the other dog barking hurts her ears, and yes, bright torches will hurt her eyes. Could your OH use a red bulb? (Or red cellophane or pen over the glass.)
Dot used to bark along with Skip when I had the two of them, now he's gone she makes very little noise, even if someone comes to the house.
Would it be worth your OH using an extender lead for her when he takes them out at night?
It sounds as though she is starting to settle, but quite a way to go yet. They say it takes 4 months for a rehomed dog to start to feel settled and secure, so tbh I think it sounds pretty good progress for such a short time you've had her! I bet in 6-9 months time you will have forgotten some of the things she does now. ;)
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Another thing, walking trotting normal, but when she runs, she will hold her left rear foot off the ground for a few strides at a time, and when walking, holds her tail to the left all the time, considering she seems frightened of vans, I've wondered if she could have been knocked by one, any thoughts on that please? Or should I be worrying about hip dysplasia? Not sure what symptoms would be?
Holding one rear foot off the ground is indication of slipping patella - nothing to do with hips. Your vet might be able to advise, but if left to get worse it can mean an operation and enforced cage rest, so best see them early rather than later on.