The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Womble on November 03, 2019, 11:18:50 pm

Title: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Womble on November 03, 2019, 11:18:50 pm
I've been reading around the topic of "FIRE" for about a year now, but I don't think we've ever discussed it on TAS before. FIRE stands for "Financially Independent, Retire Early". Say what?  Well, give me a minute and I'll do my best to explain....


Still with me?  Remember this is all hypothetical stuff at this point.


Well, some boffins have figured out that if you can save and invest 25 years worth of living expenses, you can retire now (pretty much regardless of your age), and live off those savings, with very little chance of running out of cash before you pop your clogs. (This is called "the 4% rule (https://www.campfirefinance.com/4-percent-rule/)".)


So, what some people are doing is adjusting their lifestyles until they can save some really high percentages of their takehome pay. Then, when they reach that magical 25x living expenses level, they either quit work altogether, or scale it right back (e.g. working purely for the love of it, not the money). How long would that take? Well, take our 25% / 75% example above. If each year you could save three times your annual living expenses, you could reach 25 times that in (25/3), which is only 8.5 years.


Of course this being the internet, there are loads of websites and blogs devoted to this topic. It's important to say that I'm not decided on it one way or the other. In particular, going fully hair shirt all for one magical day in the future when you can give up work seems a bit crazy to me. However, there are other FIRE concepts such as having a stash of emergency money saved so that you aren't dependent on a paycheck from month to month (and can hence escape a difficult job or home situation if you need to) that do seem sensible to me.


Anyway, if you're interested to find out more, here are a few links you might want to look up:


https://www.mrmoneymustache.com (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com) - "Financial Independence Through Badassity". In particular, start with "The shockingly simple math behind early retirement (https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/)", which is a longer version of what I tried to describe above.


https://www.frugalwoods.com/ (https://www.frugalwoods.com/) - A financial independence and homesteading blog, which has now also been turned into a book. This is FIRE with a smallholding bent.


Mad Fientist (https://www.madfientist.com/) - A blog and podcast site, with lots of tools for figuring out finances and all things FIRE.


Why all this FIRE talk is a load of irresponsible rubbish (https://www.mouthymoney.co.uk/why-i-think-the-fire-movement-for-financial-independence-is-unrealistic/) (Hint to the author - you've missed the point - you're spending far too much money!)


Anyway, let me know what you think!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Fleecewife on November 04, 2019, 12:17:38 am
Looks to me as if the concept blithely ignores the Fates,   :knit:  away and sniggering.  You can plan every minute detail of the next 50 years, then suddenly find a very nasty illness grabs you by the...pigtail, and suddenly you can't work, and having never thought of yourself as one of those sickly folk who get ill, you find yourself without sickness benefit too.  Then the double whammy - your spouse suffers something even worse.   Purely hypothetically of course.   :poo:
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pgkevet on November 04, 2019, 07:13:47 am
Two flaws i see here.

The first and most major is your 4% rule based on 7% savings growth. Point me at a system that guarantees perpetual 7% return on my capital and i'll shower you with kisses although the rule is still flawed by stating average 3% inflation...we all know it's varied much more than that in the past and this is yet another example of a finance type house advertising rates on their best portfolios (out of many mediocre successes and failures) over a short period of time to hook the investor.

The second flaw is the premis that one can cut down personal expenditure to save a high percentage and when that 25X is reached one can retire..Yes if you could do that scrimping and saving then you could retire by continually scrimping and saving. As in shivering through 25 winters to be able to retire and enjoy yourself is one thing . To shiver through 25 winters for the ability to shiver through the rest is not as attractive.

However you are correct that most folk waste money instead of putting some aside and then they expect the rest of us to bail them out... our capitalism is designed to encourage that spend behaviour.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: chrismahon on November 04, 2019, 09:55:10 am
It's very difficult to voluntarily cut back on expenditure- it has to be forced on you. Usually this means redundancy and a period of unemployment during which you have time to (and must) look at your expenditure very carefully. When we moved we searched for a South facing house with nothing to block Winter sun to cut down substantially on heating costs, but this was a concept the agents had never come across, so we had to go to all viewings with a compass. The net result was a heating cost official estimate 3X more than actual cost appearing on the home buyers report, because the official survey doesn't consider solar gain either.


I know plenty of people who waste their money, having never given expenditure much thought other than complaining about the cost- then just paying it. Seems things they 'need' we don't. The confusion arises with the difference between 'needs' and 'wants'. So we did manage to retire 10 years early on a tiny budget, knowing that we could have all we needed but very little we wanted, apart from our home here in France of course.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: macgro7 on November 04, 2019, 10:08:39 am
Blah blah blah numbers numbers etc

My father in law closed his business 5 years ago (at the age of 50) and lives of rent from the properties he bought within last 20 years. He never had a mortgage - paid of his house in 5 years.
His business was so simple - curtain s blinds interior design etc.
However now that he stopped working he developed diabetes, back problems, can't sleep at night - basically he's got way too much time. From working 6 days a week, waking up at 6am and coming back home at 11 at night to going to sleep at 3am and waking up at 2pm.
First first life wasn't really a life bit his new life isn't a dream either.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: chrismahon on November 04, 2019, 11:08:31 am
Good point Macgro7- no point in retiring without good reason. You definitely need an active interest outside of work or you will get horribly bored and your health will suffer, so darts and dominoes in the local pub doesn't count. Here we have a large number of retired and there are plenty of clubs to join on a wide range of interests. A lot of people walk daily, manage large vegetable plots or spend hours in the garage on DIY projects. At our local clay pigeon club by far the largest competition class is Veteran, which is 60-65 resulting from people taking up the sport after the state retirement age of 62. There are also lots of Super Veterans, so 65 and over, as it's a sport that can still be enjoyed and done well even into the 80's. We were lucky enough to start with chickens- addictive, ageless, cheap and unpredictable, so never a dull moment!
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: doganjo on November 04, 2019, 02:42:59 pm
I retired bang on 60. Never regretted it. Just me and my dogs to consider.  I had my government pension plus slightly less than that of occupational pensions. 

Husbands both had died in accidents(12 years apart) , but no insurance for that) Had land so splitit and sold cottage and 5 acres, kept 10 acres and built a big house (too big for me but very saleable with the land - horsey people)  Sold for almost double build cost, enough to move to more expensive area with less land. (less required as I got older and became unwell)

My outgoings reduced considerably - no travel fuel, less wear & tear on car, no need for 'office clothes', no office outings, lunches, gifts to colleagues, christmas cards and gifts to colleagues etc etc, smaller car needed because of less dogs as they died. And finally a smaller house now and less land so hopefully less maintenance both physically and financially
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: SallyintNorth on November 04, 2019, 03:08:11 pm
Hmm.... I thought that was what I was doing.  I stopped the rat race stuff and have been farming since just before 50.  I downsized to the community here just before 60.  Now I seem to be working harder than ever, both physical livestock type work and office stuff!  But never happier :).

In my case, I’ve bought my little flat for cash; like everyone else here I share the communal buildings and space on the 32 acre holding and pay my equal share of the outgoings (which includes a communal mortgage on a proportion of the whole estate), and although it’s not cheap to live here, it’s not expensive either.  We grow some of our own food (almost all our own meat and milk, veg is harder on this shallow clay here), shop for food collectively, cook and eat together several nights a week.  When the time comes, I will, if I choose, probably be able to pay folk here to care for me - so long as that’s feasible for them and for me.

If I had to go back to the ‘real world’ (which we call “out there”, lol), I shudder to think how I would manage.  If I even wanted to live that life....  :-\
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Anke on November 04, 2019, 03:38:58 pm
All a lot more difficult once you put children and family life into the equation....
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: SallyintNorth on November 04, 2019, 03:40:53 pm
Quote from: Anke on November 04, 2019, 03:38:58 pm
All a lot more difficult once you put children and family life into the equation....

Hah, yes, I steered clear of that one!  Lol
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Ghdp on November 04, 2019, 07:29:07 pm
BUT....thanks for the original post Womble. It is an interesting clue to what one might need to have to retire and for some of us chasing our tails between the day job, soothing holiday makers who not unreasonably want hot water when they turn the tap on [yep, that has been my Autumn]  and maintaining the collapsing fences and enormous hedges it is helpful to take stock and think what we would need to do to get there. I agree that years of self imposed poverty to be able to live in more years of poverty is not attractive but that is not what Womble said.
I shall sit down with my calculator and dream big.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Womble on November 04, 2019, 09:17:43 pm

Thanks All.


I think the reason that FIRE has become such a big thing in the USA is that they're even worse than the UK for people having ludicrously well paid but also boring as hell jobs, with no security. No wonder the cubicle dwellers are getting their calculators out and thinking "there must be a better way". And for every ten people who say "that can't be done", there's one who says "yes it can - I just need to be prepared to make the sacrifices".

However, the more I think about it, the less I want to sit down with my calculator and dream big. I'm dreaming small right now. Like, forget retirement for a minute. If I can find a job I love that pays well enough to live off 3 days a week's work (or of course reduce my living costs by 2/5), then I'd cheerfully work until I drop, in return for a happy balanced life that starts now. That just seems like a better way than mashing myself into the ground for X years in the hope of retiring..... and to what?

Actually, I think the 'what' is the most important thing here. People tend to think about what they're retiring *from*, but not what they're retiring *to*. (This is basically what you were saying, macgro7).

Still thinking..... and enjoying reading all your responses  :thumbsup: .
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: doganjo on November 04, 2019, 09:45:47 pm
I suppose I need to temper my post a little.  All my working life I enjoyed my job as an accountant.  I never wanted to give it up until I saw my two husbands miss out on life and good pensions by dying too early. Two wake up calls, first one meant I changed to a less stressful job. Second one was when I retired.

And I still do the book keeping side of it as treasurer for various charities and small businesses.  (Smallholding Scotland being one of them)
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pgkevet on November 04, 2019, 09:53:50 pm
I believe the US has totally different rules on their 401K and pension funds and can mange themselves and get more into direct share trading. Whether that's good or bad is immaterial but it does lead to many more websites touting the best way to plan for retirement - usually for a fee. It's much less common for average Joe UK to hold shares and trade despite the push towards that some years ago - more a case of using fund managers and many/most? of those don't do as well as a simple stock market tracker.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Womble on November 04, 2019, 10:13:03 pm
[member=16228]pgkevet[/member] , interestingly, most proponents of FIRE advocate putting pension savings into passive tracker funds, rather than trying to beat the market. Of course there are those who have gone for spread betting, bitcoin, whatever.


I have a mix of old employee pensions (in very boring, high cost funds), plus a self employed pension which I can invest where I like. Some of that is currently being looked after for me by a very nice man called Mr Woodford (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/oct/15/neil-woodford-equity-income-fund-wound-up). He says he's lost about half of it so far, but with any luck I can have the other half back sometime in February  :thumbsup: .
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pgkevet on November 04, 2019, 11:16:16 pm
I was offered an attractive managed fund for a couple of hundred K with that same nice gentleman but decided to put it elsewhere....my commiserations.
I think I read somewhere that Warren Buffet advised his wife - should she outlive him - to just put the money into a market tracker rather then allow it to be managed. So long as such investment is long enough in term to outride the crashes. If you look back at the FTSE charts from 1990 to now it's 4 times despite the 2008 crash that halved it for a while. So that follows your 7% rule
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pharnorth on November 05, 2019, 04:02:16 pm
It is an interesting topic

I retired from the main job at 53. Partly out of petulance as the Government put the retirement age up to 55 and the State Pension towards infinity. Did some consultancy for 3 or 4 years to buy nice audi and offset the guilt of not 'working'.  I could do this largely because of doing in part what Womble says, investing early to enable it. Nonetheless people think you are 'lucky'. I really enjoyed my career but a lifetime can be enriched by having a variety of experiences.

I retired to the smallholding. For several years before this we invested in solar panels, heat source pump, fencing, re moving asbestos cladding and replacing with steel. A lot of those ROI calculations need to be considered in relation to when they pay back.  For example heat source pump 9 years after making the investment the capital is close to repaid but the payback continues for the lifetime of the system and at a time which it is most useful for us.

Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: henchard on November 05, 2019, 04:20:03 pm
We retired at 55 bought a small holding and do what the hell we want, when we want including travelling and some philanthropic arts sponsorship.
There is no magic to it we both had fairly good jobs with pensions that we took early (reduced of course) but the main funding came from selling a large house in Dorset and buying a smallholding in Wales for half the price.
The fact is that anyone in the south east of the UK could, if they were so minded (luckily most aren't) sell their house and buy a smaller place in the rest of the UK and be left with a large lump of capital.
Really much of it is the luck of the draw. I could have been born in many of the African countries, such as Chad, where most people don't live to 50.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: alang on November 05, 2019, 08:05:54 pm
Quote from: henchard on November 05, 2019, 04:20:03 pm
The fact is that anyone in the south east of the UK could, if they were so minded (luckily most aren't) sell their house and buy a smaller place in the rest of the UK and be left with a large lump of capital.

That's great for you southern folk then. Shame us lower paid northerners have to only dreams at being able to sell our houses and have a massive wad of cash to be able to move to a cheaper area and buy a smallholding.

Sorry for the rant but your comments imho came across a little condescending and smacked of smugness.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: chrismahon on November 06, 2019, 09:09:50 am
Based on my experience Alang, the English population of what is called 'Dordogneshire' come from the Southeast of England. Buying big houses with lots of land for reasons that escape me. We certainly couldn't manage properties like that.


We're from the North, so we have the smallholding without the remaining capital. But why would we need remaining capital?
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 09:14:25 am
Oh [member=174648]alang[/member] you are right but also so wrong.... FIRE is inherently smug and condescending since it requires an income in excess of essential needs. I call my own moments of self congratulations my smug moments. Like the lovely half hour on top of Ben Nevis this summer. Smug yes. But not without considerable effort. Condescending to those that sit at the bottom and would like to reach the top but don't bother to make the effort. Never intentionally condescending to the many who have not got the ability, the time or their energy is needed elsewhere.
The south east property bubble comes at a high cost. Many are hugely envious of your space and freedoms. The next generation probably won't have the escape route henchard mentions as early retirement deals happen less and a 2 bed home within 20 miles of me are all over £300,000 and often sold 'shared ownership' so no downsizing move to a cheaper area bonanza for those folk in their pocket gardens. They can only dream of your lifestyle.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: henchard on November 06, 2019, 10:27:40 am
Quote from: alang on November 05, 2019, 08:05:54 pm


Sorry for the rant but your comments imho came across a little condescending and smacked of smugness.
Really?
I'd specifically said that it was the luck of the draw and that to all intents and purposes everyone in the UK was lucky compared to much of the developing world.

I didn't say it was a 'good' or even 'desirable' thing; in fact I think it's criminal that the housing ponzi bubble allows this to happen and stops youngsters affording decent homes. But that is what exists at present.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Fleecewife on November 06, 2019, 12:53:17 pm
<<< FIRE is inherently smug and condescending since it requires an income in excess of essential needs >>>

Thanks pharnorth for that.  I already posted at the beginning of this thread what happened to us, but I have to say that we are immensely happy as we are, with no big financial surplus to cushion us.  Fortunately we were already firmly established on our smallholding before the disasters struck, and here we hope to be able to stay.  It is hard work, and we can't afford to pay anyone to help us out, so we do as much as we can and we get by.  It's a great life.  Sometimes I think that too much rigid planning is asking for trouble.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: doganjo on November 06, 2019, 02:04:00 pm
Quote from: pgkevet on November 04, 2019, 11:16:16 pm
. So long as such investment is long enough in term to outride the crashes. If you look back at the FTSE charts from 1990 to now it's 4 times despite the 2008 crash that halved it for a while. So that follows your 7% rule
That's how a chunk of my money got lost - managed by Clydesdale bank, but like everyone else they were caught in the crash
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 02:11:04 pm
Fleecewife you have my respect and admiration. My own heroine is my late grandmother widowed in the Great War, single mother of one and survived 70 years on a war pension and waitressing.  She would have been dryly amused by these self indulgent concepts having come from 'dirt poor' labouring family but very impressed by the shared drive on TAS to make a better more natural life for ourselves whether we jumped or were pushed into it.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pgkevet on November 06, 2019, 03:02:59 pm
Quote from: doganjo on November 06, 2019, 02:04:00 pm
That's how a chunk of my money got lost - managed by Clydesdale bank, but like everyone else they were caught in the crash
I was very annoyed by the crash - mostly 'cos I'd been forcasting it for 7 or 8 yrs before it happened and got lulled by the 'crack papering' that was going on and also failed to anticpate the move to low interests afterwards instead of the previous approach of cranking them up. So I got caught like everyone else with a pension pot that got halved, a  business i sold at a fair rate so the newcomer could finance it out of it's profits - and of course they soon got a lovely low interest deal and raked the loot in. That and the southern housing price rise (becasue of those low rates) that meant that the house I'd sold for 1/2 mill went up to 1 mill inside 3 yrs whereas the place we bought here hasn't moved. At least the pension pots have mostly recovered.
I was brought up by 'careful' parents and respect hard work. I also have every sympathy for the genuinely underprivilleged or disabled but very little tolerance for those complaining how hard they have it while spending weekends in working mens clubs/pubs boozing and feeling entitled to flash weddings and holidays abroad etc. My first many years working and employed on a better than most salary but i still traded most of my holidays in for locum work to build a buffer and like many here would get home late and be up a ladder wire brushing the guttering or DIY improvements.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Goatherd on November 06, 2019, 03:49:58 pm

  A view from the other side I have been in farming all my life now 70 my farther was a farm worker owned nothing
  But i wanted my own farm by the age of 30  I put myself through collage worked my way up to farm manager
  on route keeping livestock and did get my own place have traded up a couple of time to what i have now always
  been down south  I have two children 31 and 28 both hate farming don't want to be wet cold long hours and no
  money I always thought they would take over and i would just help out  With repairs renewals and expansion
  never bothered with pension always something else to pay for  I could sell up and retire but what would i do all
  day at the moment i start at 4.30 in the morning and go to 9.00 to 9.30 at night can't afford help at min wage
  children still live at home Why do farmers do it its the challenge will it grow  will it give milk  make it better
  mend it   and beat the weather  at the moment biggest challenge is to pay the elec bill
   Set your self a target go for it and look i made it not sure what to do with it now but
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pgkevet on November 06, 2019, 07:44:39 pm
WEll done.Neither of my kids was up to following in my different footsteps - would have had a splid business and good future but not prepared to work hours.What you built up and can go look at is your own accomplishment, investment in yourself and be proud. OK I retired to this small farm (your age now) but even though it's just a hobby farm I walk out into the fields in the summer, gaze at the scenery and pat myself on the back for what I have from simple enough beginnings.Yeah, It's a shame that my kids will just flog it when i croak but there's no point in worrying about stuff like that any more than being nostalgic about any other past house or bit of kit. Frankly my best legacy will be the nut trees for future generations.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Womble on November 06, 2019, 10:27:24 pm
Quote from: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 09:14:25 am
FIRE is inherently smug and condescending since it requires an income in excess of essential needs.


Yes, I do see that point of view. For anybody on a low wage, it's not going to be practical to live on only a portion of it and invest the rest.


However, let's say you're on twice that wage? Is it any really more smug and condescending to live off half of what you earn and save the rest than it would be to spend all of what you earn, i.e. to live exactly within your means?
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pharnorth on November 07, 2019, 05:14:45 am
Quote from: Womble on November 06, 2019, 10:27:24 pm
Quote from: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 09:14:25 am
FIRE is inherently smug and condescending since it requires an income in excess of essential needs.


Yes, I do see that point of view. For anybody on a low wage, it's not going to be practical to live on only a portion of it and invest the rest.

However, let's say you're on twice that wage? Is it any really more smug and condescending to live off half of what you earn and save the rest than it would be to spend all of what you earn, i.e. to live exactly within your means?

Hi [member=2128]Womble[/member] , it was meant as a statement rather than a judgement, yours is equally true. It is bucketing down outside at present. The old fashioned saying was 'save for a rainy day' , that always had smug/ sensible conortations too.  My personal philosophy has always been to aim to balance the efforts & pleasure of the present with the needs and pleasures of the future.  But these FIRE dialogues need some awareness that saving is addictive and there are a lot of people out there who haven't the means for the present.  And also the context since internet is international: In the UK tax aims to offset that but in the USA in particular they have a low tax system that relies on philanthropy and it is far more common to be asked for donations.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: doganjo on November 07, 2019, 10:51:10 am
Can I throw something else in the mix?
As you get older and nearer the time of departure  :innocent: without knowing exactly when  :wave:, how much should one keep in a savings pot - a years income, 2 years income, 3 months income?  Or should one give a sum to one's lovely children and greatly enjoy their happiness in receiving a gratis pay out, knowing that if you were destitute they would look after you?

I say this in the an#bsolute knowledge that my kids would most definitely take care of me whatever I did - even if I got another dog lol
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Womble on November 07, 2019, 11:18:50 am
Quote from: pharnorth on November 07, 2019, 05:14:45 am
My personal philosophy has always been to aim to balance the efforts & pleasure of the present with the needs and pleasures of the future. 



Yes, absolutely. As per my other thread about work / smallholding balance, I currently have a decision to make. Vastly oversimplified, this is would I rather cut back on expenses, work five days a week and try to save two day's worth of income for the future, or would I rather work three days a week and then have four off, starting now?
 

I'm coming to the conclusion that I'd rather work three days a week until I drop - it just seems more balanced than saving like crazy for an unknown future.
 

BTW, I do know how smug that must sound to anybody with too much month left at the end of their money, but it does need to be read in the context of us having a fairly simple lifestyle and also no children. (I remembered asking that question of TAS at the time too, and lo and behold, here it is..... from ten years ago! (https://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=3709.msg32129)  :o ).
 
Quote pharnorth (sorry, I'm having trouble with formatting today): "But these FIRE dialogues need some awareness that saving is addictive."

This is actually what's fascinating about reading some of the FIRE blogs. Many of the folks writing them started off ten or fifteen years ago with "right, I hate my job, I'm going to save like crazy, achieve FI and then travel the world" (etc). However, read on to what they've *actually* ended up doing and plans have invariably evolved. For every blog that ends with people achieving FI as per their original plans, there are several more which just fizzle after a few years or take a very different direction. Several for example met new partners and had kids which were not in the original plan. Another couple sold everything and bought a campervan, only to find travel intensely dull after a few years. To quote the Mad Fientist (https://www.madfientist.com/):
   
   
“Once I reached financial independence, I realized money wasn’t very motivating anymore, which was surprising”. “So now it’s more about being an artist than an entrepreneur. It was never about not working — I get a lot of happiness from working. It was just about having the freedom to work on exactly what I wanted to work on, regardless of if it meant earning money from it or not."
   
   
I think what I find most interesting is the idea that we don't have to follow the crowd if we don't want to, and that we can make an alternative future for ourselves. But I guess that's not big news to most smallholders, is it?  :farmer:
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pgkevet on November 07, 2019, 11:20:39 am
DoganJo that's got to be a terribly personal dilemma tied up with a guesstimate of one's health, legal limits to passing on money (not that that need stop one), whether kids will fritter it or use it wisely, whether they should be brought up to be self-reliant, alternatives of trusts  and other death duty avodiances if appropriate and ones need to either have an 'easy out' or private geriatric care - 'cos with the best will in the world looking after an old person, or beng looked after by one's kids can be demeaning and wreck their lives. With my mum the last year was hell for her and the level of support from social services was pathetic. She was fortunate to have a nurse helping her out with general housework for her last few years (as a second job 'cos nurse pay is crap) and that lady carried on doing her best with my financial assistance and even so towards the end I had to hire two full-time carers which took a great chunk out for any possible inheritance (not that i was needing it).
One thing that really should be done is to organise a lasting power of attorney (can do it online) 'cos otherwise dealing with stuff on the senile person's behalf is a nightmare. Fortunately my Mum was pragmatic and amused (while still competely with it) when i got her to help me fill in such power of attorney's and a specimen probate form. Even with that planning we had some issues 'cos the solicitors lost her deeds she'd lodged with them. At least mum had carefully filed duplicate wills and stuff.
My kids get help with soem stuff - paying for a training course, riding lessons for granddaughter, perhaps a bit towards a holiday - but they do need to be able to manage.
I have no idea how long I'll go on for. I doubt I'll make a healthy 80 but mum made 98. It's impossible to plan everything.
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: pharnorth on November 07, 2019, 06:41:17 pm
Having worked in a similar field to yourself [member=2128]Womble[/member] (no need to excuse the pun) I suspect that you can ramp your work up and down rather than make a single one time decision. The start ups are very hungry for your time and I found it hard to say no too. But it gets easier with practice!
Title: Re: "FIRE" - Financially Independent, Retire Early
Post by: Glencairn on November 21, 2019, 10:01:19 pm
My wife and I were discussing this when it was featured on moneybox a couple of weeks ago.

We commented how its a funny coincidence that the people who manage to retire early using FIRE are either landlords or have at least £500k worth of savings beforehand.

There doesn't appear to be many success stories of people who started with little or nothing, so much so that the people featured on the radio were going to spend their new free time sailing around in their yacht!