The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: tommytink on August 23, 2019, 09:35:05 pm
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Just a quick question about having a ram.
Do they need company (a wether?) and do they need a field of their own?
I am sure I read somewhere someone said their ram stays with the ewes all year?
Someone I know has two rams in together. I thought they’d fight?
We are getting a hire ram for our Badgers (part of the deal when we purchased) but need one for our Hill Radnors. We thought about trying to find one to a hire as we want to keep some ewes ( :fc: ) but then realised we could keep him for at least two years anyway so might as well just buy one.
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Yes they need company. A ram kept on its own will not be a happy chap. My 2 rams live together all year in their own field, apart from the 6-8 weeks they are out with their respective ewes (they each have their own groups of ewes in separate fields). When they come back together after tupping we reintroduce them in the shed in a confined space, very slowly as they will fight. After 7-10’days they are bored of each other and go out to the field together. The same is done after shearing as once shorn they smell different so have to get reacquainted. Most of the time in the field they get on fine, leading up to tupping they get a bit firey but nothing too bad.
I wouldn’t keep a ram in with the ewes all year round. Your lambing will be drawn out very long, rams cannot eat the same nuts as ewes so feeding at lambing would be very difficult. Also you want your ewes tame but the rams must have a healthy respect for you (and vice versa).
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It depends on the breed. We keep several entire males together - they organise themselves into a pecking order, with a boss who keeps the peace. It tends to go by age to some extent, with lambs added at weaning being bottom of the heap. It is very peaceful for most of the year, but they do get a bit het up and pushy approaching tupping time.
Unlike twizzel, we put our tups back in together in a oner. We put out some feed, then let them get on with it. They sometimes fight a bit and chase each other round, but they soon get fed up and prefer to lounge around discussing what they have been up to for the past few weeks.
We don't keep tups with ewes through the year because they cause disruption, bash the fencing and can be very rough with birthing ewes and new lambs. Also we keep our ewe lambs in with the flock and let the ewes wean them at their leisure. They stay with the old non-breeding biddies during tupping, then go back with the whole flock, minus tups, running together through lambing. This gives the new ewe lambs the chance to witness birthing before they lamb themselves, and keeps family groups together. Other people keep their tup in with their ewes all year round. Presumably they are not bothered when they lamb.
Yes, a tup needs a companion - another tup or a wether will be fine, but the wether will need to go in with the ewes at tupping time too for company.
We don't lend out or hire tups in for biosecurity reasons (ie bringing pests and diseases onto our land) and the safety of the animal. There are other breeders who are happy to do so.
If you buy in your own tup then, as you say you can use him for two years, or for as long as he lives on those same ewes. Any daughters will require a different tup. We have managed with between 2 and 4 tups on the go at any time. We divide our ewes into bloodline groups, and put them with appropriate unrelated tups. This means that you can continue to breed from a particular pairing if they produce good lambs. It is also very good for the biodiversity of your flock. This is only relevant of you are breeding breeding stock.
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I made the mistake of turning my tups out a few hours after shearing (they were hungry, had fresh grass to go out onto and had been quiet in the shed for the afternoon together). Within 5 minutes one had taken a long run up and pelted the other into the electric fence :rant: so they went back into the shed for a week to sort out their differences in there where they can’t get any distance to run. Turned them back out after a week and they were fine.
The one thing I would say is don’t make your rams too friendly. Don’t feed them regularly. Give them a handful of lamb finisher nuts every now and then so they will follow a bucket but keep interaction to a minimum. I used raddle paste on one of my rams last year which needed him to come up every few days to some feed so I could put fresh paste on. He can be a bit pushy now with cake although after the summer he is better. This year I’ve got him a harness so interaction at tupping is limited.
With the ram you hire make sure you give him a quarantine wormer the day before turning him out with your ewes at the very minimum. You don’t want him bringing resistant worms onto your farm.
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Keeping a tup with the flock year round can work, but unless you breed all your ewe lambs as hoggs, you do need to be able to separate ewe lambs off at tupping time.
It doesn’t necessarily mean a very protracted lambing. I kept a Shetland tup with my mixed flock and lambing lasted four weeks on average, pretty much never longer than five weeks. Shetlands and other primitives, in my experience of doing this in the north of England, don’t come cycling until late October, and a healthy flock with a healthy tup should give you 95% of your lambings in the first cycle (so lambing over three weeks or less) with the stragglers usually within a week to ten days of that. And, again in my own experience, left to their own devices a ewe often lambs on the same day she was born, and on that same day year after year, so if you only retain those born and lambing in the 95%, your lambings will tighten up year on year.
Some tups can be a nuisance with lambs, but many aren’t - quite the reverse, some become guardians of the flock and are gentle with the lambs; we named one such Dutch Texel “Big Daddy” because of how lovely he was with the lambs. My experience is that giddy ewe hoggs cause far more upset at lambing time! I lost a pregnant ewe because of it once, so I don’t now run my hoggs with the lambers until lambing itself has finished and all lambs are at least a week old. The hoggs still get to see young lambs but aren’t around to cause angst when the mums are actually lambing or in the first few days when the mums are super-protective.
And I’d probably keep a new tup in the field next door from about one month out and until the youngest lambs are a week old for the first time he’s present during lambing.
As to keeping a tup with wethers for company, it doesn’t always work. Chad had been used to staying with the flock year round, and when we separated him after tupping the first year here in Cornwall, even though he knew his 4 companion wethers really well, he simply couldn’t settle. We’d expected to keep him a while to put condition back on (that was his third year tupping and there would be daughters entering the flock the following year), but he was so unhappy we just sent him off. We had him minced in case he was still tuppy, but in fact the meat was some of the best we’d ever eaten!
My other comment is, if you’re going to keep a tup and keep him separate apart from tupping time, then if you’ve got the paddock to do it, keep two or three wethers for companions, not just one, then they’re still a group while the tup is working. And if you can and his happiness matters to you, don’t make it always wether lambs he has for company - let him have a pal or two that stay on year on year, so he has adult company.
(Yes, you could say our sheep are spoiled ::). We prefer to say that their welfare - physical and emotional - is paramount to us. ;). )
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I would say it is much easier to keep a ram all year round than hire a suitable (good) ram when you need one, also you don't know what your introducing to your flock either bringing in a new ram for a short space of time..
I have kept a single ram before (not on his own).. I would keep him with your ram lambs when he arrives, presumably you have separated them from the ewes. I would then put them in with the ewes for tupping and leave them together until the following summer when you wean the lambs. Then when you split the ewe lambs and ram lambs, keep the ram with the ram lambs till he's needed for tupping.
Its possible that you may have a ewe loose a lamb and come back into season in the early spring, but its never happened to me.
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Thanks all. So he will definitely need a friend! I don’t currently have any ram lambs to put in with him as this will be our first time. I was always thinking about a wether and that they’d stay together but then ram lambs could go with them at weaning time?
I think I have enough field space to accommodate, and I also have an indoor shed area that previous owners said they used for their ram. If I had two rams, when you say you leave them in the shed for a few days, is this literal? I mean, it seems quite a small area? Ours is prob approx 9x9 ft.
And next time round, which is a while away, keep ewe hoggs separate? What can they do that causes problems with the pregnant ewes? Although Fleecewife you keep yours in?
I think I’ll definitely buy as opposed to hire. Makes more sense. Now just to find one! There’s a show and sale in Sept but a little far away for me. Will try though!
On a side note, I will rams try and get to every ewe they can? Obviously I have the two breeds which I’ll separate in non-adjoining fields. However I also have two Badgers that aren’t going to the tup. If they were in an adjoining field would he try and get to them?
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My rams are on the other side of the farm to the ewes, they are pretty well behaved but I wouldn’t keep them in a field next door. They are always behind electric.
Yes when you reintroduce them they need to be penned tight. Mine start off in a 6x4 hurdle pen and gradually it gets moved a bit bigger each day. They need to smell the same to accept each other and basically get bored of each others company.
Rams are boisterous, they will push around for food and could knock pregnant ewes about. The biggest concern id have keeping them in with ewes at lambing is the fact they cannot eat ewe nuts- which most ewes need pre and post lambing.
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The biggest concern id have keeping them in with ewes at lambing is the fact they cannot eat ewe nuts- which most ewes need pre and post lambing.
:idea: tommytink has Hill Radnors and Welsh Badger-faceds. The probably do fine on a 16% protein feed, so could be fed a cake that’s suitable for boys too ;)
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Is 16% protein feed what you give to lambs (and what rams can eat as well)? What is in the ewe nuts that is bad for rams?
Also, Twizzel has mentioned about electric fencing. Does this really work on sheep? Is it the netting type? I have tape around my pigs. We put some sheep in the same field so put some temporary stock fence around the electric. Of course one decided to stick her head through the fence and leant forward sniffing into the tape. I heard it snap, and she moved back and kind of froze, like she didn’t know what happened, then moved away. When the pigs get hit they squeal like hell and run back in their arc!! They prob weigh the same, or not far off. Does the hair dull the current? I can feel it fairly strongly through a thick blade of grass, let alone touch it with bare hands!
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It is more a case of what is not in ewe nuts; there is a tendency to produce calci stones so ammonium chloride is usually in as a trace component for wether and rams.
I use 3 strand wire for my sheep effectively. The wire can be tensioned and has least resistance so holds current better than polywire. Netting is ok for brief periods but tedious to keep the grass from growing up and shorting it. I have pigs behind tape too but would not use it for sheep. They seem to respond best to something with a bit of tension in it and if in full fleece can lean into the tape as you found.
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3 strands of poly wire and a decent fencer do the trick for me :thumbsup:
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Is 16% protein feed what you give to lambs (and what rams can eat as well)? What is in the ewe nuts that is bad for rams?
You can’t assume that a 16% feed is ok for rams but most 18% feeds are ewe feeds and are not safe for rams and wethers.
Most companies make an “all stock” 16% pasture mix which is ok for rams and wethers. If it doesn’t say on the bag you’ll need to ask the store or rep.
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Hi all,
So I bought a ram from the society sale. Needless to say it ended up a bit of a disaster as his front feet are in a mess. Back feet fine. Thought buying from their official sale would be safe but guess not. Checked his back feet at the time but obviously can’t say I saw his front else he wouldn’t be here. Anyway, just another problem to our list. Have days where I’m so fed up of things going wrong. But ignore me feeling sorry for myself, I do have a genuine follow up question to my post!
The companion wether the advice is to get - should it be of a similar size? I’ve been trying to source one, and had a few offers of Shetlands (and even a Balwen!) but thinking these may be a bit small. One of the sellers suggested getting two (of course they did!!) so it’d be more equal.
What do you think - does size matter??!
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I wouldn't buy a companion wether, I would put him straight in with the ewes and keep him with them until the lambs are weaned. If your mind is made up I would buy 2 store lambs to keep over the winter with the ram, then in the spring turn the ram out with the ewes and lambs until weaning, then keep the ram with the lambs for company.
For me - who doesn't have pet sheep, I would avoid keeping a companion at all costs. They cost as much as a breeding sheep but you can have lots of problems with their weight as Rams and ewes weight will fluctuate according to the time of year (breeding/lambing etc), wethers put weight on all year and it can be a real issue..
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I agree you don't need a wether right now if the tup is about to go out, but if you plan on keeping him on for another year then you might want company for him once he's finished his work.
A wether costs a fraction of what a breeding sheep does to keep. They eat less, they need far less meds - they do no work so are not stressing their system.
In terms of size, closer to the ram's size would be better, but not the end of the world if they're smaller. It's not a bad idea to have two, in that they can keep each other company when the tup is working, and three is a better group than two. (Although four or five is actually preferable.). But on the other hand, the two wethers are likely to have a better bond with each other than with the tup, so the tup might find a single wether is a better companion. :thinking:
Using a wether lamb or three each year is better than nothing, but it's better welfare for herd animals to have company of their own "age and stage", so an older sheep will be a better companion than a lamb.
If you have a crafter in the family, or know one, a Shetland wether could also provide you with lovely fleece for crafting. As far as I have experience of them, you won't be getting any nice fleeces off the Hill Radnors :/. (And Balwens are also among my list of least pleasant to spin.). But some of the Badgers' might be nice - I've had a few nice Torddu fleeces, although the Torwen's I've had have been less exciting.
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Oh, one other thing - just for safety's sake, if you have a polled tup, it's better to give him polled wethers for company. It's more of a thing if keeping tups together, but just in case...
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Don’t all sheep cost the same to keep? I’m guessing there may be extra cost with ewes associated with lambing issues? But what about rams? They all eat grass. I don’t think one extra mouth would cost much more in any winter feed that might be needed. And he’d still need vaccs, wormer, fluke, fly strike treatment.
I remember you saying before Sally about having one that’s around the same age which makes sense. I don’t know what’ll happen to it when we have to swap the ram out though!!
Not sure when he’s going in. I need to sit down, research, and put a plan together. At the moment I’m waiting for FEC results on the girls. And I want to make sure his feet are improving as well. I read somewhere that hill breeds cycle later. Again, I’m learning this all as I go so don’t fully understand everything yet.
We have had an offer of a Lleyn wether lamb. It’s pretty close to home which is appealing as don’t really want to travel too far although a little more than I wanted to pay but got to weigh up travel costs and time etc.
Would the wether not go in with the ram and ewes at tupping time?
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I had this dilemma last year when I bought my Lleyn ram. Can't see the point of keeping something that won't technically earn its keep so I bought another ram to breed fat lambs from :roflanim: The best of my girls go to the lleyn to breed replacement ewes, the few that I don't want to keep replacements from go to the dorset. Works well, the boys are company over the rest of the year for eachother, and if one has a fertility problem at tupping at least I have another ram I can chuck in so my ewes aren't empty. Just have to be careful with reintroducing them after tupping and shearing.
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This is hopefully what I plan to do as well Twizzel, although one ram for the Radnors and one for the Badgers. Because we’re getting the Badger ram on loan this year we obvs aren’t buying one just yet though.
So now I’m thinking I’ll leave getting the wether and consider maybe leaving him in with the girls for a while. Would there be any issue with him being in for a few months (and take him out before lambing)? Would he keep trying to do his job the whole time and put pressure on the girls? ???
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Once they are all in lamb he should settle down a bit. He may still sniff about but they won’t be cycling anymore if he’s already got them in lamb. The only risk is a prolonged lambing period if you have ewes returning, and if he doesn’t settle down just keep an eye on his condition :)
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Don’t all sheep cost the same to keep? I’m guessing there may be extra cost with ewes associated with lambing issues? But what about rams? They all eat grass. I don’t think one extra mouth would cost much more in any winter feed that might be needed. And he’d still need vaccs, wormer, fluke, fly strike treatment.
No, they don’t all cost the same. A breeding ewe is the most expensive. She is growing lambs, then making milk for them, then getting fit again for tupping again, alongside keeping herself fit and growing her fleece. It’s a lot more work than a tup does, who is basically a dosser for 49 weeks of the year then works his ba11s off for three weeks ;). And a wether does the least, all he has to do is keep himself going and grow a fleece.
Each will eat what they need, and that’s a heck of a lot more for a ewe than a wether.
You pretty much never need to give supplemental feed to a wether. In winter, the wether needs less than half the hay a pregnant ewe does, and in the 6-8 weeks before lambing and a few weeks after, the ewe needs cake too. In spring and summer, when she’s making milk for her lambs, the ewe will eat at least three times the grass a wether will, or grass and cake if the grass hasn’t come in yet.
You can get the info and do the maths if you want. There are lots of figures published for dairy cattle, talking about maintenance ration - what she needs for her own body, and what she needs on top of that to make milk and then to grow her next calf. A wether needs only the maintenance ration.
Because a ewe is always working very hard, her body is more stressed, so she will need meds way more often than a wether, and will also need more minerals and supplements for the same reason. In a twelve month period you would probably vaccinate a ewe, worm her once or twice, give her mineral supplementation once or twice, maybe copper needles once, blue spray for her feet once or twice. Once every three-five years on average maybe she needs antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, or other treatments. Mr Pie my senior wether always has access to a lump of Himalayan rock salt, as do all our livestock, but I can’t remember when I last had to do anything with him apart from shear him. Oh, yes, I had to pull a thorn out of his foot shortly after we arrived here, three years ago, when they went into grazing where the blackthorn hedgerow had been recently trimmed.
Adult sheep under no stress and not wormy really shouldn’t be needing flystrike treatment.
I guess one thing that all sheep would need is if you are in a fluke area, you would probably fluke any wethers as well as the tups and ewes.
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Would the wether not go in with the ram and ewes at tupping time?
Personally I would leave the wether with the non-breeding lambs, if you have any. The ewes will probably bully him and the tup may be aggressive towards him while tupping is going on. But he could run with the tup and ewes if there’s nowhere else suitable for him, yes. If you’re feeding the tup, you won’t want the wether getting any, though ;).
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Would there be any issue with him being in for a few months (and take him out before lambing)? Would he keep trying to do his job the whole time and put pressure on the girls? ???
No, there will be no work for him to do once all the girls are in lamb. It will only be a problem keeping him with the girls when you get to 6-8 weeks before lambing and you want to start feeding the girls - if indeed you do want to cake the ewes before lambing. Three issues there. Firstly, the feeds formulated for ewes are not safe for tups and wethers to eat, but with your breeds you would probably be fine with an all-purpose stock mix. Secondly, teaching tups to run to you for cake can create dangerous monsters, so if you do end up with him in the field while you are feeding ewes, never let him be anything other than respectful towards you - never get out of his way, he must wait for you to move, or go around you. And thirdly, a minor point, but it adds to the cost, as he doesn’t need the cake.
Some tups are fine to be left in throughout lambing and after, but they aren’t all. As well as the feeding issue, they can be aggressive towards the lambs and or towards you as you tend your birthing mothers. So with a new tup it’s probably safer to have him next door the first year, and if you want, put him back in once the lambs are 6-8 weeks old maybe, and see how he behaves then as you tend the ewes.
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Another factor might be what hay feeders you want to use. You have polled ewes and a horned tup, I think? So a ring feeder might not suit the tup, depending on how impressive his headgear is. And you’d need more trough space and hay heck space to accommodate the horned animal.