The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Shinding on April 23, 2019, 07:39:24 pm
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We have just been offered EDIT: 1.8 acres of pasture that adjoins our land. It doesn't have a water supply and there's a clause on it that no structures can be built on it (which is a good thing as far as we are concerned) and is based in West Wales.
The owner's children want £35k for it and have said that there is also another party interested in it (there's always another party interested in land!!) and that they want to keep horses on it, but they'll be slow to produce the money (owner's children want to buy 1 big house and move their infirm mother in with them).
I know that land is usually worth between £8.5 and £11k, so I'm wondering if people think a horse lover (if one even exists in this case) would be prepared to pay £35k for just EDIT} under 2 acres of land. BTW, there's usually a lot of ragwort on the pasture but current owners just mow it down - don't know it that makes a difference.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Smaller sections of land are almost always more per acre than the local agricultural land rate. Especially if suitable for horses :/. And of course, any land adjacent to one’s own holding has a specific value to you, which the seller knows.
Ragwort would make it unsuitable to most horsey people, but some seem to not mind it. There are expensive and rare Tennessee Walking Horses kept on land adjacent to my folks; the land is covered in ragwort and they don’t seem to worry about it at all. I think it’s more of a problem in hay, when the animals can’t detect and avoid it so easily.
Mowing ragwort is just about the worst thing you can do, I believe. Likely to turn a naturally biennial plant into a perennial, according to the info I’ve read.
According to my calcs, £35k is approx 160% of the upper end of your price per acre locally. Probably not out of order, in my experience. If you can pay up quickly, sounds like you might get it for less? Try ‘em for £30k, if it’s worth that to you?
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Ridiculous price for west Wales. 10k per acre tops and that would be grade 1 ! Some people near here did. Pay 30k fora couple of acres next to a lake ..... But. More money than sense! No I would put max even adjoining your land at 25k.
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It is expensive, but - how much is an additional 2 acres located next to your existing land worth to you? I'm sure you know that the opportunity to buy adjacent land is rare!
35k for a pony field is expensive, but small fields don't come up for sale a lot..
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Put it like this - if the "other people" buy it - how are you going to feel? They don't make land any more, and even less next to your place. It's worth having a bit of a haggle but at the end of the day, if you can afford it, and really want it, then I would go for it. No one but you can estimate its true value to you.
30 years ago I paid£4,000 for a quarter of an acre at the end of my garden. That equated to £16,000/acre all those years ago and loads of people said it was wasn't worth it. But that bit of land has a gate onto the road and is incredibly useful (added onto the acre I already had) because I can take animals on and off without going through my garden. It has also added value to the house and well worth the money I paid to have had the convenience over 30 years.
The ragwort is irrelevant. You can spray it and graze once it's rotted down, or put sheep on in spring who eat out the crowns as they come through and that kills the plants.
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My family have just had a third of an acre valued for probate, in North Yorkshire. £25,000. This land has a back of village location and zero prospects for development.
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Thanks very much for all of your replies. Just found out the actual acreage is 1.8. Guess it's up to us to decide what it's worth paying. We know that the sellers know we want it so feel they're taking the proverbial but it's whether we want to risk losing it by bartering.
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I will share my eBay tactic, in case it’s helpful.
If you’re good at imagining, imagine yourself finding out you’ve just lost it by £500. At what price would you say, “Meh. That’s too much, they can have it anyway,” and not feel regret every time you see the new owner using it? Bid up to £500 less than that ;)
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Thanks very much for all of your replies. Just found out the actual acreage is 1.8. Guess it's up to us to decide what it's worth paying. We know that the sellers know we want it so feel they're taking the proverbial but it's whether we want to risk losing it by bartering.
Do you have funds in place, or would you need time to sort them out? I would approach the seller and say you like the land a lot and would like to buy it but its more expensive than you imagined it would be. What is the lowest figure they would accept with a view to having the purchase happen as quickly as solicitors would allow.
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I will share my eBay tactic, in case it’s helpful.
If you’re good at imagining, imagine yourself finding out you’ve just lost it by £500. At what price would you say, “Meh. That’s too much, they can have it anyway,” and not feel regret every time you see the new owner using it? Bid up to £500 less than that ;)
I would also add, don’t get too tied up with what its market value is. (See my tag line.). If the land would give you joy, solve a problem, or cause a problem if someone else was using it, its value to you will not be found on a graph of land values ;)
Oh, and we have seen several people on here say they’d had an opportunity to buy adjacent land some years ago, and had never stopped regretting not buying it. I can’t recall anyone ever saying the opposite ;)
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Bj_Cardiff - we can buy the land quickly as we can temporarily borrow money just for that purpose then pay that person back once we have borrowed money from a more traditional source. We also know that they'd like to buy a new home for all the family to move into together - so we do have that on our side.
SallyintNorth - thanks for the tactic :D It is good advice to imagine just how much it is worth to us and how disappointed we'd feel if we lost it. Think it's worth a lot more to my husband to have, so going to let him lead how much we end up paying for it. I personally would offer £25K then see what happens. I hate the fact sellers are being so greedy as they know we'd like it. Unsure if they'd have an immediate offer of £35k from a horse owner as surely they wouldn't want to pay so much over the value for it as this early stage - may be wrong though!!
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As many have said (in one way or another) it's all about what a bit of land is worth to you! Only you can decide that. However, you seem to know the seller's situation just as well as they know yours. It seems to me you and the seller need to have a good chat !
As an aside: unfortunately I've deleted the land details, so I cannot be precise, but a bit of land over the road from mine recently went on market. From memory, it was about 2.5 ac and offered at not much less than I paid for my 7.5 ac in 2015. I wasn't interested in buying it and I have no idea what the actual sale price was: however, I offer this as an example of how the apparent worth of land can change in short time. It was definitely over-priced as marketed, but it didn't take long to sell at whatever actual price was agreed. It's all about what it's worth to you and how keen the seller is to sell without issues.
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If the land would give you joy, solve a problem, or cause a problem if someone else was using it, its value to you will not be found on a graph of land values
Well said Sally! I agree wholeheartedly.
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If borrowing money to buy then ensure you cost in cost of borrowing
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Minimum for a horse would normally be 2 acres, and would need a supply of water, plus if exposed a field shelter would be needed. I suspect most horse people wouldn't be interested even at £25K
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Sorry but 1.8 acres for 35k is taking the proverbial p*ss... IMO. If it has no value as building land (depends on what the actual clause preventing building on it is and if it can be removed), no water and what is the access like?, then 20k would be nearer the mark. I doubt the other party really exists - has it been advertised anywhere?
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In my experience, valuations of land directly adjacent to properties are based on the likely increase that adding the land would have to your property value. The value of agricultural land nearby is not relevant (in their eyes) to you.
Whether the land is worth what they are asking to you though, is of course a very different matter!
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I am selling my holding and was approached by a neighbour wanting about half an acre directly adjacent to their house which would turn a 2 car parking area that has to be reversed into off the road into a turning circle and parking for a motorhome plus a back garden outside their back door rather than livestock. Agent I am with said the value to an adjoining house would be £10-20k/acre for both amenity enjoyment and increased value of the house. They offered £2.5k as agricultural value. I politely declined because it isn't worth the hassle for less than £10k minimum - legal fees and all the paperwork, paying for formal markers and refencing even with shared costs.
I would say if you want the land you only have one chance. If you wake up tomorrow and find someone coming and going twice a day to check on 2 small ponies or half a dozen sheep, goats, alpacas or a large flock of hens and cockerels crowing, how do you feel? If you want control of the proximity you pay for that. If it increased your valuation, better still but it makes it more saleable either way. Privacy matters more to me than most and I'd hate a 2 acre non resident livestock owner coming in and out. They might sell to a dog club/dogwalking field with lots of yapping day and night and agility competitions every weekend. Or a desperate horsey person WILL pay that for their 1 horse and a shetland companion if they can't get anywhere else. Livery costs add up to more than loan repayments so don't assume everyone will put the value where you do or the large scale farmers to whom it's just any old acre not your immediate neighbour to come for years ahead..