The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Reecebevan12 on March 07, 2019, 06:46:32 pm
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Evening everyone
We have a small flock of sheep and currently have a ewe that lambed on Monday in bonding pen. I want to turn them out but have limited grazing due to other livestock already out there.
I wormed the ewe after she lambed and wanted to turn her out with lamb in the field with the pregnant ewes but read somewhere not to turn wormed sheep out onto pasture with non wormed pregnant sheep.
Is this true and if so can someone explain why please?
Thanks in advance!
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Adult sheep in fit condition have an amount of immunity to worms but when they lamb they lose this for a short period and can put out large amounts of worm eggs onto the grass which can cause problems to lambs later in the season . Modern thinking is that ewes should not need wormed at all or if worming then do not worm all only the leanest /poorest ones
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I always worm my ewes 6 weeks pre-lambing and again at lambing. I think at those times they are under stress and it seems to me that they can be pulled down by a heavy burden. I don't worm throughout the year. Maybe a month or so after weaning if one or 2 aren't picking up as quickly I'd worm them?
Your fields will probably carry a worm burden - unless your cross grazing with cattle or horses, so there really isn't any such thing as a 'clean pasture'. Its not best practice to turn wormed and non-wormed sheep out, but IMO I don't think it'll make massive difference in the long term.
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I always worm my ewes 6 weeks pre-lambing and again at lambing. I think at those times they are under stress and it seems to me that they can be pulled down by a heavy burden. I don't worm throughout the year. Maybe a month or so after weaning if one or 2 aren't picking up as quickly I'd worm them?
Your fields will probably carry a worm burden - unless your cross grazing with cattle or horses, so there really isn't any such thing as a 'clean pasture'. Its not best practice to turn wormed and non-wormed sheep out, but IMO I don't think it'll make massive difference in the long term.
This is over worming and the reason that there is resistant worms.
Best practice nowadays is if worming then leave 10% of sheep unwormed and turn back out onto the wormy pasture for a couple of days before moving onto fresh.
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I only worm my adult ewes as I let them out post lambing ….. and this is to reduce worm burden for lambs.
I suspect the reasoning behind not turning ewes and lambs out with pregnant ewes is the same … could be large worm burden for lambs?
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This is over worming and the reason that there is resistant worms.
Please explain?
I don't see how that is overworming? pregnant ewes are wormed 6 weeks pre lambing and turned back out onto their existing pasture and penned up and kept in the barn for a few days post lambing before being turned out onto fresh fields with their lambs?
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I guess the lambs won’t be eating a lot of grass for the first week or three, so maybe it wouldn’t be too big an issue? You’ve wormed the mother, so she won’t be shedding eggs, pregnant ones won’t be shedding much until after they lamb - whereupon you’ll worm them.
Lots of farms, including all three I’ve lived on, sometimes leave some lambs in the field with their mother and the group they’ve been with all along - maybe it’s the group of singles, maybe it’s the last six or nine ewes in a group that was much bigger at the outset, or whatever. And my whole fleece flock up north stayed pretty much together all year round, ranging over their 25 acres of mixed pasture and woodland.
So I wouldn’t get too stressed about it ;). Sure, if you have the setup, it’s ideal to put the newly wormed mothers and their new lambs onto fresh pasture, that didn’t have lambs on it last year if possible. But if you haven’t, just put them where it makes sense. Sounds like you have other livestock, so you probably manage to do a bit of rotational grazing, where each species eats the worms of the last incumbents, so your pastures are probably pretty clean anyway.
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pregnant ones won’t be shedding much until after they lamb
I've always wondered about this. Clearly most farmers will worm after lambing, because that's most convenient for them. However, if we're lambing outside, when would be the optimum time?
Our ewes don't get stressed by being gathered or dosed, so we could really do it any time.
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This is over worming and the reason that there is resistant worms.
Please explain?
I don't see how that is overworming? pregnant ewes are wormed 6 weeks pre lambing and turned back out onto their existing pasture and penned up and kept in the barn for a few days post lambing before being turned out onto fresh fields with their lambs?
Are the pregnant ewes fecal egg counted first? Then worming again 6 weeks later with no FECs. If no FEC how do you know if there are any resistant worms? Are you using the same drug each time? You really need to talk to your vet about this as needing to worm so often is a sure sign of a problem.
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As [member=75709]Buttermilk[/member] says. It is confusing as advice has changed over the years as more evidence and studies have been done. The gap between your two wormings is short and if the first dose was needed and effective the second dose should not be. Worth a conversation with your Vet. I aim to do FEC pre tupping, pre lambing and dose if needed.
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pregnant ones won’t be shedding much until after they lamb
I've always wondered about this. Clearly most farmers will worm after lambing, because that's most convenient for them. However, if we're lambing outside, when would be the optimum time?
Our ewes don't get stressed by being gathered or dosed, so we could really do it any time.
Sorry, just had to remove formatting. On my screen, things with additional formatting don’t work correctly when quoted. I guess I ought to mention that to [member=1]Dan[/member]
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Okay, so now I can read your question, Womble!
Well, I’m not a vet, so I’m going by what I’ve read too. But what I’ve read says, if I’ve understood it correctly, that the stress and hormones of lambing itself - parturition - causes a massive release of worm eggs. So worming them before lambing isn’t useful, I think.
But I’m very happy to be corrected by those who know their veterinary physiology better than I!
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Apologies for the formatting - blame Chrome.
This is one of those things people state in forums and you read about in books, but when I think about it more deeply, I start to wonder.
For instance, if it's the stress of lambing that causes a reduction in the ewe's natural defences, and allows worms to multiply / release eggs (not sure which?), then surely worming a week or two before lambing would be best? That way you've cleared out any worms the ewe is already carrying (and they can't start releasing eggs in the run up to lambing), but equally any new ones she's picked up won't be producing their own eggs for a while yet.
Do you see what I mean?
EDIT: See attachment for excerpt from "Veterinary Parasitology, G.M. Urquhart et al".
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I do see what you mean but have assumed the worms are dormant, hence impervious to drugs, until awoken by the hormonal rush. But that’s pure conjecture, i think, just me trying to make sense of what I’ve read!
We need one of our vets or other biologically informed members to help us here :eyelashes:
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I see your excerpt and am none the wiser! Lol. I used to be able to read and comprehend that sort of stuff, but it’s all a very very long time ago now... :-\
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I take it to mean "all of the above". But you're right, I am in no way qualified to interpret that text! [member=24953]lord flynn[/member] - any ideas? :thumbsup:
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I see your excerpt and am none the wiser! Lol. I used to be able to read and comprehend that sort of stuff, but it’s all a very very long time ago now... :-\
(Nearly 40 years! Oh my gosh, however does that happen?! :o )
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Ach, it's all changed since then anyway Sally. 40 years ago we still cut hooves off for footrot and put newly wormed sheep out onto clean pasture.
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Ach, it's all changed since then anyway Sally. 40 years ago we still cut hooves off for footrot and put newly wormed sheep out onto clean pasture.
Very true. But I think the language and its interpretation wouldn’t have changed. I used to be able to read that sort of article like it was in my mother tongue ;). Now it’s like doing my Latin ‘O’ level all over again; pick out the words you know, make educated guesses at some of the others, try to fill in the gaps... say to yourself, “Life is surely too short for this”, and do something else. ( No I did not pass my Latin ‘O’ level :innocent:)
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Are the pregnant ewes fecal egg counted first? Then worming again 6 weeks later with no FECs. If no FEC how do you know if there are any resistant worms? Are you using the same drug each time? You really need to talk to your vet about this as needing to worm so often is a sure sign of a problem.
Ah - right, I see what you mean, I think I'm still acting on advice from years back. I thought that as the ewe became heavier and heavier in lamb the worms started to drag her down so it was best to worm her then again at lambing. I'm happy to be wrong though and see your point though so will discuss with my vet :) Thanks